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Author Topic: Using MC to tag JPG images ??  (Read 7809 times)

AndrewFG

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Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« on: June 25, 2016, 10:40:33 am »

I have been using MC for audio for years, but I am just now starting to look at it for images. My question concerns tagging (meta data) of images.

I can use MC to add tags my pictures for people, places, album, track (viewing sequence) number etc. just as one does for audio. And these tag values are stored in the MC library. But how can I store these tags in th actual JPG image file itself?

I also have Adobe Elements, and indeed Windows Explorer. And both those applications allow one to read/write tags in image files. However when I use MC to tag an image, none of those tags are visible in Elements or Windows Explorer..
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Matt

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2016, 08:35:22 am »

JPG images are tagged with an MJMD block.

It's just a custom XML block to say all the file properties.

I think a few things are written to ITPC and XMP as well, but not many.
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Skeezix

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2016, 10:58:31 am »

So how does one go about embedding MC's tags into a JPG, or is that possible?
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marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2016, 11:10:56 am »

Make sure "update file when tag info changes" is checked.
Make sure fields you want to be saved to file are flagged as such in the field manager ("Save in file when possible")
Tag a file and MC takes care of it.

Most of the tags go into the proprietry MJMD block, some, like MC's Keywords are written to IPTC and so are available to other applications. There are others that go to IPTC too, I'll see if I can find the list...

marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2016, 11:52:44 am »

I also have Adobe Elements, and indeed Windows Explorer. And both those applications allow one to read/write tags in image files. However when I use MC to tag an image, none of those tags are visible in Elements or Windows Explorer..

This is the main reason I use, for the most part, a single, nested, keywords field for my image tagging in MC. Although I don't use it, I believe Explorer understands the saved keywords MC writes in IPTC. Elements... well... I used to use that many moons ago, but ditched it in favour of MC once MC introduced stacking.

I do all of my image tagging using pane tagging, like so...
  • All of my 'incoming' photos are put into an "Incoming" folder that MC watches.
  • Incoming photos are tagged in this view (attached below) and then moved to their final resting place using the RMC tool.
  • In order to have all of the keywords in the tagging pane, I include all of the photos in the library in the view along with the incoming ones, and use grouping to separate them. The field to group by is an expression based field that looks like so:
Code: [Select]
ifelse(
    isequal([filename],incoming,8),Not Tagged - formatdate([date,0],yyyy//MM//dd),
    isequal([filename],lightroom,8),Not Tagged - formatdate([date,0],yyyy//MM//dd),
    isequal([filename],Nero,8),Not Tagged - formatdate([date,0],yyyy//MM//dd),
    isequal([filename],iCloud,8),iCloud /(filefolder()/),
    isequal([filename],Google,8),Google /(filefolder()/),
    1,Finished
    )

Once I've tagged and then moved the files, they drop down into the 'finished' group.
I keep Ratings, People, Places and Events all in keywords too. It's easy to pull the info out of Keywords in order to build specific views for Theater View and the like, which is why I have 'Population', 'Location', 'Occasion' and 'Score' fields in my library.

I appreciate that my setup has evolved over years, but once the setup is done, it really is 'set and forget'. I am quite enthusiastic about my MC image library. The only thing I still keep an old AcdSee around for is to edit the EXIF capture times of things like scanned photos, and those times where I forgot to change the camera time for daylight saving, and so on. Other than that, I'm happy with MC.

I suppose I should mention that I didn't like MC's RAW handling, so use Lightroom for those, exporting jpgs from there, to the folder that MC watches.

-marko

AndrewFG

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2016, 04:30:08 pm »

I keep Ratings, People, Places and Events all in keywords too. It's easy to pull the info out of Keywords in order to build specific views for Theater View and the like, which is why I have 'Population', 'Location', 'Occasion' and 'Score' fields in my library.

Sorry but I don't really understand what you are saying here. How actually do you store People, Places, and Events in a single keywords attribute? Could you please kindly give an example?

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marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 12:35:10 am »

I can. I was rushing that post last night. Apologies for that. I'll take some time just now.

While you're waiting for that, I found the original mappings post from back in 2006, it's basically what we still have today...
Here are the current IPTC tags being read, and MC tags the are mapped to (also subject to change):

BYLINE -> Artist
CREDITS -> Notes
DATECREATED ->[changed] Date
CITY STATE, COUNTRY ->(combined) Places
COPYRIGHTNOTICE ->Copyright
CAPTION ->(same: no longer Comment)
CATEGORY->Genre
KEYWORDS->(same)

Suggestions to mapping as well as all other suggestions, are welcome.

JimN

pre-emptive excuses line...
They way I do mine works for me because, given the age of my library, the majority of the keywords I need are in there already. After importing some new photos, mostly I just need to add the new "Places" keyword, maybe one or two new ones, some captions, and anything else I need is already in the keywords list. Hopefully helpful post coming up next...

marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2016, 01:36:29 am »

Nested Keywords
I keep "People", "Places", "Events" and "Rating" nested in my Keywords field. Why?
Because MC stores its own versions of these fields in a proprietry <MJMD> tag block that only it can read.
MC keywords are written out to IPTC keywords, which everything reads.
I've also found that I really like having (mostly) just the one field to maintain.

The workflow I use has worked for me for ten years or more. I'm old and inflexible so will only try something new here
if it's instantly helpful and requires no new learning curve on my part. My MC image library is great, I love it. Others do to, but
I baulk when they ask me what I use to achieve it because setting it up 'just the way you like it' requires a fair bit of tinkering
under the hood. off the top of my head, while I type this, I'm thinking things such as...

Expressions and font colouring I've employed in thumbnail text to provide me information and warnings regarding tagging states etc.
Expressions to build fields from data mined from keywords.
Stack management (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=105662.0)
Creative list grouping employed here and there.

I have a slideshow expression here that I think Matt said contained a net 73,000 characters. Matt knows this because at one point, it brought
my image library to its knees, so Matt fixed it. All those characters make it so that when ever someone views a picture that has any of our
grandkids in it, the caption will display, amongst other things, their ages. It's neat, viewers like it, but they have no idea what it is in
the background that makes that happen. I don't try and bore them with it, I'm just glad they like it. Now that all of the expressions and other
trickery are in place, all of that stuff just works. Like 'set and forget' except the 'set' part takes a bit of work. If after reading that you
are still interested, here's the keywords and subsequent extraction bits, and yes, I did ask myself whether this was worth it given that MC
provides stock fields anyway, and for me the answer was still yes...

If you apply a keyword to a file like so: !People\Rod; !People\Jane; !People\Freddie
MC displays them as an expandable tree...


The same applies to other categories, such as Events and Places. I add a preceding exclamation mark to keep all of the tree 'branches' at the
top of the list. Having them in a single Keywords pane running up the left side of the view makes tagging via pane tagging (tick the boxes) quite
a quick and simple affair, but...

Off the bat, if you employ an "incoming photos" workflow, whereby MC watches a folder for new arrivals, which you then tag, and then move out of said
folder once tagging is done, you will quickly bump into an issue... namely that the keywords field will be empty as none of the incoming files will have
keywords yet, so, you won't be able to use pane tagging. My solution to this was to build a view that contains all of my photos. As an aside, many of us
may have more than just photos in the image library. I do. I have icons and clipart and so on. I tag these with a field I called "Type", and then set up
specific views dependant upon type. The tag on import feature is your friend here. Getting back on track, the list that contains all my photos is great
because now I have a fully populated keywords field, so pane tagging is a breeze, but the list itself is not best organised for the task in hand. You
want all the photos that are not in the 'incoming' folder grouped together at the foot of the list. Their only purpose for being there is to populate the
keywords field. How?

We can group a list using any library field we choose, so, create a field using an expression that derives groups you want. The expression below works for me:

Code: [Select]
ifelse(
    isequal([filename],incoming,8),Not Tagged - formatdate([date,0],yyyy//MM//dd),
    isequal([filename],lightroom,8),Not Tagged - formatdate([date,0],yyyy//MM//dd),
    isequal([filename],Nero,8),Not Tagged - formatdate([date,0],yyyy//MM//dd),
    isequal([filename],iCloud,8),iCloud /(filefolder()/),
    isequal([filename],Google,8),Google /(filefolder()/),
    1,Finished
    )
   
iCloud and Google are used for different views where I manage files on those services.
I group by this field, in descending order, so, "Not Tagged" are grouped above "Finished" in the list, and by including the date in the "Not Tagged" groupings, the
"Not Tagged" photos are grouped by date, above the finished files. Once done tagging a group, select the files and move them using the RMC tool, then refresh the view.
Those files will now drop out of view, somewhere in amongst the other "Finished" files.

Next up... Mining keywords for HTPC friendly views...

marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 02:03:01 am »

Under "Photos" in Theater View on the TV, I received grumbles because drilling in and out of keywords was a bit of a faff... I needed a way to reverse the nested stuff
out into specific fields... MrC helped me with the regex for most of this.

I chose [Population], [Ocassion], [Location] and [Score]. They're all expression based fields and they go like so:

[Location] - Caveat here is that it only catches the first instance. Not an issue for me as I don't have photos tagged with more than one place.
Code: [Select]
if(regex([keywords],/#(!Places[^;]+)#/,0),replace([R1],!Places\,),)&datatype=[list]
[Ocassion] - Same caveat as location above, applies here.
Code: [Select]
if(regex([keywords],/#(!Events[^;]+)#/,0),replace([R1],!Events\,),)&datatype=[list]
[Population]
Code: [Select]
listbuild(1,;,if(isequal(listitem([keywords],0,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],0,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],1,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],1,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],2,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],2,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],3,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],3,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],4,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],4,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],5,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],5,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],6,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],6,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],7,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],7,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],8,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],8,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],9,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],9,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],10,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],10,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],11,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],11,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],12,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],12,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],13,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],13,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],14,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],14,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],15,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],15,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],16,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],16,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],17,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],17,;),!People\,),),if(isequal(listitem([keywords],18,;),people,8),replace(listitem([keywords],18,;),!People\,),))&datatype=[list]
[Score]
Code: [Select]
if(regex([keywords],/#(!Rating[^;]+)#/,0),replace([R1],!Rating\,),0)&datatype=[integer]
So, population right? I needed them all so had to do it the 'hard' way. No photo I have has more than eighteen keywords applied. If I did have one, I would need to extend this expression.
It's basically working its way through the entire keywords field for each file, testing each applied keyword for "people", and if it finds one, it strips the "!People\" bit out and keeps the
person's name. It works, and for me, it doesn't slow MC down. As I tag away in the keywords field, these are automatically updated. This allows dedicated views in Theater view without any
extra legwork.

It's all good. This stuff has been working so well for me for so long, I needed to refresh my memory as to how some of it was set up before writing this up. I know it's not for everyone, but might be useful to some.
MC can be so good with images, both with organisation on the server machine, and playback on TV via Theater View. The more that try it the better, I say, then we can all ask for EXIF time shifting together and then they couldn't say no.... could they? ;)

-marko

RoderickGI

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 02:10:44 am »

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I want to do something similar, putting images in MC, and you are highlighting the MC shortcomings at the same time as explaining your solution.

I read your Managing Stacks post, but didn't get why you used Stacks instead of just assigning photos to an Album and then grouping by album. I guess it had to do with using JRemote/Gizmo, which I don't use.

Maybe you could explain that choice in this thread?

Ta.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
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  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 02:38:27 am »

Thanks for your thoughts.

I only use stacking for two things...
1. I have fifteen similar photos I really like. I don't want to delete any of them, but they would make a very boring slideshow. I pick the best one, and place all fifteen in a stack. Now the other fourteen are effectively hidden from view until the stack is expanded.

2. If I want to edit a photo, I'll use the "send to external" menu, where I have photoshop listed. I have the option set there to send a copy. When used this way, MC makes a copy of the file for me to edit, automatically stacking it with the original, so only the edited file is on view, unless the stack is expanded. Auto import updates the thumbnail in short order once editing is finished.

MC automatically populates the album field with a photo's date. For the most part, this is ok for me. Where I want or need to, I set my own album name. I have an "album" view where albums that are dates are excluded. If I took the trouble to apply my own album name the set must be good, right? Other than that, I rely on keywords and calender to find stuff. An expression based calender pane is useful, I can post that later if anyone wants it.

marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 02:45:27 am »

I'm on the phone here, so forgive any auto corrections that slip through...
The stack manager view thing is just my ocd. MC doesn't really provide one like that by default, so it's not easy to quickly get "show me all files in stacks" so for me, over time, you'd have no idea where you were at with those, which is why I made that view. It gives control over all the stacks in one tidy place.

AndrewFG

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 09:39:10 am »

Hi marko,

Many thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge with us.

So, population right? I needed them all so had to do it the 'hard' way. No photo I have has more than eighteen keywords applied. If I did have one, I would need to extend this expression.
It's basically working its way through the entire keywords field for each file, testing each applied keyword for "people", and if it finds one, it strips the "!People\" bit out and keeps the
person's name. It works, and for me, it doesn't slow MC down. As I tag away in the keywords field, these are automatically updated. This allows dedicated views in Theater view without any
extra legwork.

Hmm. That is very interesting.

I wonder if perhaps one could simplify it to something like this

Keyword: !People\"quoted, semi-colon delimited, list of names extracted automatically from MC's custom people tag"
Keyword: !Places\"quoted, semi-colon delimited, list of places extracted automatically from MC's custom places tag"

Examples

Keyword: !People\"Rod; Jane; Freddie"
Keyword: !Places\"Paris; France"
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rudyrednose

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 10:59:52 am »

Thank you marko !
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marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 11:10:19 am »

Quote
Examples

Keyword: !People\"Rod; Jane; Freddie"
Keyword: !Places\"Paris; France"
It won't like that. If you think of them like Windows Explorer paths, it would give you a branch at: !People\"Rod

With Jane, and Freddie" as separate items on the root of the list.
 
If I remember right, back in the day, I used "Find/Replace"...

I copied the data from [People] to a temp field, then "Find: ; " "Replace with: ; !People\"

Then I used listcombine to join that with exisiting keywords field, then finally, copied the new combined list into keywords.
Back then, there were no spaces between list items as there are today. Does find/replace work with a trailing space in "Find"? I'm not sure...

AndrewFG

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2016, 02:23:45 pm »

It won't like that. If you think of them like Windows Explorer paths, it would give you a branch at: !People\"Rod

With Jane, and Freddie" as separate items on the root of the list.

That is why I proposed the enclosing quotes. The quotes actually also work in Windows Explorer too.

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marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2016, 03:12:59 pm »

I tried applying a keyword value using: !People\"Rod; Jane; Freddie"

In the Keyword pane, this gave me three entries:

!People\"Rod
Jane
Freddie"

Maybe I'm not understanding you properly?

AndrewFG

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2016, 03:45:50 pm »

Maybe I'm not understanding you properly?

My question is if there a way of escaping a string list into a single key word. (Obviously apparently quotes do not work)..

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ferday

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2016, 04:48:34 pm »

My question is if there a way of escaping a string list into a single key word. (Obviously apparently quotes do not work)..



What about forcing &datatype?
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AndrewFG

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2016, 06:38:39 am »

I tried applying a keyword value using: !People\"Rod; Jane; Freddie"

In the Keyword pane, this gave me three entries:

!People\"Rod
Jane
Freddie"


Aha. When I first read your post I thought that MC was using whitespace to delimit keywords, and I was therefore not sure how one could handle names with a first and last name part. So I checked the IPTC specifications, and discovered this..

Quote
Each keyword term should be separated by a delimiter, such as a comma, though some software may allow semicolons or line returns (note also that some applications may change the appearance of this delimiter as well, such as Photoshop changing your commas to semicolons).

Therefore I now see that MC uses semi colons to delimit keywords, and that your example !People\"Rod; Jane; Freddie" got split by the semi colons (and not by the whitespace).

So if you enter a keyword string like !People\Rod Stewart; !People\Jane Doe; !People\Freddie Mac - that gets split into three respective full names.



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marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2016, 10:35:37 am »

Yup. You got it.

AndrewFG

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 03:00:58 pm »

If you apply a keyword to a file like so: !People\Rod; !People\Jane; !People\Freddie
MC displays them as an expandable tree...

Hi Marko, is there a reason why you use the ! exclamation mark as a prefix to the keyword tags? I think it should work just as well without. Or ??

 
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marko

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 04:35:19 pm »

The only reason is aesthetics.

As in Windows Explorer listing folders first, then files. I put the exclamation mark in there so that all the 'branches' sort to the top of the list.

How you getting on with your image library?

AndrewFG

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 04:52:38 pm »

How you getting on with your image library?

Very well thanks to your excellent advice. Much appreciated.

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marko

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Re: Using MC to tag/manage JPG images ??
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2016, 01:07:19 am »

You're more than welcome.

If you are still going along this "all in the keywords field" approach, here's another view you might like (attached)...
It's a population view. It requires that you make the "Population" field shown in post #8 above, and that your "People" tags are contained in the Keywords field using the format "!People\John; !People\James" etc.

Three panes down the left hand side.
"People" shows the contents of the "Population" field
"Head Count" lists how many people there are in each photo
"Keywords" is just that, Keywords.

The panes filter top to bottom, or bottom to top.
You can pick a person in the top pane, and if you only want photos where they are the only person, selecting "1 Person" in the head count pane will give you just that. Simples :)
It works with multiple selections too, so if I select both of my daughters in the population pane, selecting the "2 People" option in Head Count returns just photos that contain both of my daughters and no-one else.

-marko

AndrewFG

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Re: Using MC to tag JPG images ??
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2016, 03:01:40 pm »

Thanks Marko.

I am concentrating first on getting the tags in the database, before I start worrying too much how to get them out (onscreen) again..

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