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[blgentry]

As you may or may not be aware, MC21 (and maybe 20?) has a hidden Tagging Window called the Experimental Tag Action Window (ETAW).  You can bring it up by holding down shift while selecting Edit > Tag .  Note:  In recent builds of MC21, once you bring up ETAW it becomes the default Tagging Window.  To go back to the original TAW, just hold down shift and Edit > Tag again.

I'd like to discuss how this works, things I like, and things that might be improved, or changed.  In fact, I'm almost certainly missing how some of this works, as it's not exactly documented, so hopefully I'll learn something here too.

The idea of using templates for the ETAW based on Media Type and Media Sub Type is a really good one!  I like this.  The included templates seem pretty complete and fairly well laid out.  As I was researching various aspects of this, I just noticed something I missed.  There's a search box at the bottom of the ETAW.  It searches on field names *and* their contents.  That's nice!!  This will save me time, as will being able to lay out my own set of tags, in the order I want, grouped how I want, with spacers between them, in logical groups.

Some things that I think could possibly use improvement or changes:

Font size of individual tag names:  The size of the tag groups is normal.  The size of the values is normal.  But the size of the field names is 2 or 3 points smaller.  Which, on my system, makes them just on the other side of hard to read.  The fonts are already sort of small.  If these could be bumped up a point size or two, they would be much easier to see and use.

Show all fields in current view:  This is something some people use a lot.  It's a great feature of the current Tagging Action Window (TAW).  I see that there is a customization option to add a group for "all visible fields".  But that's awkward, as it becomes a new group and you have to add it to every template where you might want to do this.  Why not simply make it a drop down option on the main ETAW options, just like it is on the current TAW?  Seems like a simple fix to make a lot of people happy.

Show All Tags:  From time to time, I want to look at all of the tags for some reason or another.  Most of the time it's when I do a search and a file comes up that confuses me.  Why did search find this file?  So I look at all the tags trying to find what matched the search.  Other times I want to remind myself of all of the tags and it's a very easy place to look.  *I* think it's useful.  Again, this could so easily just be added right into the ETAW pulldown options menu, just like it is on the current TAW options.  Boom, done.

I'll probably think of more, but I've got only one question for now:  Advanced.  How do you add Advanced as a group?  In the templates that are included Advanced seems to include everything that's not in the other groups.  That might be useful to include sometimes.

Oh and I should say that I'm discovering a lot of little integrated items that are nice touches.  The Image being displayed and being integrated with the Cover Art menu by clicking on the image.  The Playlists group.  This is shaping up to be a really nice modification to the TAW. 

Discuss.

Brian.

[cncb]

I would like it to display lists as one item on each line like it does in the standard tag window.  But, unlike the standard tag window, I would like it to resize to show all list items instead of cutting it off at 4 or 5 lines.

[ferday]

i've been using the new window for a bit.  for the most part, i think it's amazing and a most welcome addition to MC!

i agree with you on the font size!  on the visual aspect, even if the font size remained but the field names were bolded it might be easier to read at a glance (that may depend on your skin i guess)

i can't say i have much to complain about, so far the couple templates i've made are making life easier and i like it a lot....

I would like it to display lists as one item on each line like it does in the standard tag window.  But, unlike the standard tag window, I would like it to resize to show all list items instead of cutting it off at 4 or 5 lines.

most of the time i would like that, although i have a few that would have too many lines for that to be useful at all.  thankfully not many but a big list could make the template unreadable...although it gets unreadable now as the list keeps scrolling to the right

[RoderickGI]

I would like to see nearly all of the TAW's drop down selections available in the ETAW.

Show Default Tags would become show template tags only.
Show Tags With Values would display tags with values in their template group, and any extra tags in an overflow group. Perhaps the Advanced group down the bottom.
Show Tags In Current View would display tags that are in the current view in their template group, and any extra tags in an overflow group. Perhaps the Advanced group down the bottom.
Show All Tags would display all tags in their template group, and any extra tags in an overflow group. Perhaps the Advanced group down the bottom.

The Also Show function probably becomes redundant, because you can just customise the template to achieve the same result.

I would also like to still have the option to display tags saved into the file, rather than in a sidecar file, currently achieved by clicking the description of the file, at the top of the TAW.

I'll probably think of more, but I've got only one question for now:  Advanced.  How do you add Advanced as a group?  In the templates that are included Advanced seems to include everything that's not in the other groups.  That might be useful to include sometimes.

It looks like creating the Advanced Group is easy. Just create a Group and name it Advanced.

I agree that it looks like the content of the Advanced Group is just everything that isn't included in other groups. To add this content, you use an Expression, as per the attached image. (Note, I haven't done much testing of that. I just looked at the existing Advanced Group configuration.) It looks like there is a new Expression Language command, "Custom(Advanced)", which isn't listed in the Expression Language Wiki article yet.

The "Image File" item also uses a new Expression, "Custom(Image)".

[blgentry]

I agree with a lot of your comments Roderick... see below for a few specifics.

I would also like to still have the option to display tags saved into the file, rather than in a sidecar file, currently achieved by clicking the description of the file, at the top of the TAW.

It's already there.  The Tag Dump group shows you that same information you could get by clicking the top header of the TAW.

It looks like creating the Advanced Group is easy. Just create a Group and name it Advanced.

I agree that it looks like the content of the Advanced Group is just everything that isn't included in other groups. To add this content, you use an Expression, as per the attached image. (Note, I haven't done much testing of that. I just looked at the existing Advanced Group configuration.) It looks like there is a new Expression Language command, "Custom(Advanced)", which isn't listed in the Expression Language Wiki article yet.

Well would you look at that!  Thank you for teaching me about this.

Can you guess what expression is used for the Tag Dump group? 

Brian.

[RoderickGI]

Guess it? No. Find it? Yep: Custom(TagDump)

I just added a Dump to my video files to test. As expected, it displays "n/a" for most.

[marko]

I am finding that the ETW is slowing browsing down by quite some margin.

Switching tabs can take over two seconds with it open, but virtually instantaneous with it closed, or the main tag window open.
More often than not, after hitting 'click to edit', the only way to get out of that is to either hit enter, or escape. A second click does not exit edit mode like the main tag window does.

I miss being able to 'break out' the cover art into its own window, and then have the tag window open too.
I miss the 'large edit' fields having a large edit window. I know that we can break out the large edit into a popout window, but that's cumbersome and I just don't like it.
I miss 'Also Show...' It gave a feeling of immediacy. If a desired tag isn't there, it's super quick to bring it into play.

I like being able to group tags however I please.
I like being able to skin it, but we need more control over things like the 'mouse over' indicator and it would be nice to be able to specify a background image too.
I like these:
custom(image)
custom(advanced)
custom(tagdump)
custom(playlists)

The speed issue is worrying though... I think it might be 'All Fields' that's causing it. Will need to check...

[blgentry]

I am finding that the ETW is slowing browsing down by quite some margin.

Switching tabs can take over two seconds with it open, but virtually instantaneous with it closed, or the main tag window open.

I haven't seen this much, but I've seen it a couple of times in testing for the last day or so.

More often than not, after hitting 'click to edit', the only way to get out of that is to either hit enter, or escape. A second click does not exit edit mode like the main tag window does.

*This* I've noticed.  It's sort of confusing as to what the sequence is for "I'm Done Tagging Now".  Enter works most of the time, but it's not what I'm used to.  With the regular TAW, I usually click on the field name again, and that "sets" my edits in place.  Escape erases them.  I guess clicking again works, but it seems that on most fields, when you click again, the whole field is a single solid color and you can't read what you just typed in.  It's there, but it's hidden until you click another field.

I miss the 'large edit' fields having a large edit window. I know that we can break out the large edit into a popout window, but that's cumbersome and I just don't like it.

Cumbersome?  I just click a button and get a relatively giant window to edit in.  Is that troubling because it conceals what you're working on?  Or the extra click?  Or just "it's not the same as before"?

I'm surprised so few people have commented on this new ETAW.

Brian.

[marko]

RE. large edits...

Previously, you could click to edit, and the whole thing was there in a window matching the size of the whole tag window, so if you just wanted to read, it's a click to open edit mode, and another click to close it once done reading.

While doing any of this, attention is in the tag window area.
With the ETW, click to edit shows a painfully small window that shows not a lot really, so you pop it out, which drags your attention to this new window in the middle of the screen, and then back to the tag window once done reading. For me, that's nowhere near as intuitive or smooth as the main tag window currently is.

Re. Surprise...
I would expect that most people would be hesitant to use anything labelled 'experimental' on their tags... only insane beta types would go for that

[RoderickGI]

*This* I've noticed.  It's sort of confusing as to what the sequence is for "I'm Done Tagging Now".  

Yes, this. I have pretty much been using the ETAW for viewing tags rather than editing, up until selecting it made it become the default tag window. This needs to be fixed, as it is too easy to lose edits. There are some similar problems with Checkbox tag types in the normal TAW as well.

Oh, by the way:

20.0.127 (7/9/2015)

1. Changed: Pressing Ctrl+Enter in an edit of the experimental Tag window will accept the changes and close the edit.

It seems to work as well. A little more consistency with the original ATW would help though. Ctrl-Enter also saves the edit on the TAW, but so does clicking a tag name.

In fact Marko, it was you who asked for this change!

Mucking around with this I finally found the "Edit in Popup" on a Description tag. I've always wondered what people were talking about when this was mentioned.

[marko]

Here's exactly what I'm talking about regarding large edits...

Today, I was performing some work on the lyrics field of some tracks. Compare the two tagging paths....

The Current Standard
Here, I can open the lyrics field for editing, and see the whole thing, right there, and make edits. I don't need to close the field, selecting the next track saves those edits and presents the lyrics field of the currently selected track, ready for editing...


The Exprerimental
This is where it gets cumbersome...
Initially opening the field for editing is really not fit for purpose, so you need to pop it out, which prevents the next track from being selected until the pop out editor has been closed...


Also, when not 'popped out', putting the mouse inside the small edit field and trying to scroll up and down is horrible as MC can't decide whether to scroll the field being edited, the tag window as whole, or both, which is a source of frustration...

Re. Slowdown
I haven't tested enough to say conclusively yet, but initial testing regarding the slowdown I have been experiencing appears to point at the "All Fields" group as the offending item. Removing that has definitely felt like an improvement.

-marko

[marko]

The "Playlists" entry is even worse to work with. The entry is presented in the same fashion as above in each of the tag presentations, making the standard a breeze to work with as the full playlists tree is visible, and it does not reset and collapse with each change of file selection.

The ETW presentation of Playlists is again unfit for purpose. The window is too small, requiring scrolling, and again, both the small Playlists window and the entire tag window scroll together, and the little Playlists window resets to the top, and collapses the tree, with each change of file selection.

I still much prefer the ETW on the whole, but am really glad that we still have the standard to fall back on in these cases.
Hopefully, some of these issues can be resolved before the ETW becomes the new standard.

-marko

[BernhardS]

The Exprerimental
This is where it gets cumbersome...
Initially opening the field for editing is really not fit for purpose, so you need to pop it out, which prevents the next track from being selected until the pop out editor has been closed...
http://www.mpw.scot/pics/ia/21/snap-013.jpg

That is why I don't use the ETW. I posted two times that I think it would be useful to set this edit popup window modeless. But it did not seem too easy. I never get an answer.

[Castius]

I like the new tag window.
But the background and text color are white. So i can't read it.
Maybe do not use the skin background color. or something.
I use purity

[blgentry]

^ Yeah, most of the included darker skins don't show the ETAW correctly.  Even Modern Cards Dark and Carbon show it legibly, but it looks out of place because it's mostly white, in a very dark skin.

My current favorite dark skin shows it perfectly:  Black and Blue Too HC (I use the version with normal scroll bars).

Brian.

[Arindelle]

I like the new tag window.
But the background and text color are white. So i can't read it.
Maybe do not use the skin background color. or something.
I use purity

Marko just posted a solution here http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=41727.msg707789#msg707789

I use Purity Dark on my clients for tagging ... if you want I'll re-skin it if the author doesn't and post it somewhere here but I might not get to it until January ... Karushi is working on some nice dark skins too that he will shortly incorporate the new tag window. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101952.msg707264#msg707264

Any light skin will work now more or less for a test drive though, its really made for Noire IMO in its present state.

[HPBEME]

I only recently discovered the ETAW, and having used it now for the last couple of weeks, I thought I would weigh in.

ETAW things I LOVE LOVE LOVE:
•   templates
•   tag groups
•   search window
•   customizing the tag order (i.e. tags are not ordered alphabetically by default)
•   a “divider” tag that allows you to create a small space between tag “sub-groups”

What I prefer in the current tag window:
•   the small thumbnail/summary info at the top of the tag window.  It is a great little summary and I am not forced to create separate line items in order to view those values.  It also provides instant access to all stored file tags (by clicking on summary file info) without the need of a separate group "tag dump".  I really hope this one specifically is rolled into the ETAW
•   full tag window height for large edit fields… Marko hit the nail on the head in reply #10.   However, I do prefer the fact that biography, review, and lyrics, are a single line prior to being enlarged in the ETAW.  Another very high priority change IMO
•   keep all the drop-down selections (default tags, tags in current view, also show…, etc) as noted by RoderickGI in reply #3, and blgentry in his opening post. 
•   field names are left justified… to my eyes, this looks cleaner, especially when using light skins (which is what I use most of the time)
•   each tag is separated by a one pixel wide color "grid" line

I also have experienced what others have noted regarding losing edits and inconsistent behavior for ending an editing session, but I have not noticed any slowdowns during browsing.

Overall I love the new window, and by incorporating a handful of what appear to be universally desired changes, it will be spectacular.

[marko]

So we have a new tag window and i have some question related to this new thing. Because i can't find any information on the forum so i'm here to ask.

You just found some more info

First of all, the new tag is great with adding things on it, but the lack of information we have it seems, that this new tag missing something. So my question are these:
Can we have information as list delimited and not as continued, because the old tag format are able to draw max of 4 lines and the rest are hiding, and you can see them only if you select the respective field. (maybe we can have more than 4 delimited list to show, or make an option)

One for Matt and the team, I think..

Can the new tag being editable on skin, because right now i can't find anything to change or i don't look where need to be changed;

Yes. See details here regarding skinning....
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=41727.msg707789#msg707789

The search bar seems is searching only for fields, but not in the fields inside (specially on the user field)

If I'm understanding correctly, you would like the search field in the tag window to search the field contents, as well as the field names? Interesting thought. The search bar in top left of the main program can do that, but, if a field is not specified there, it will only search fields flagged as "default search" fields, and it returns files, not tags.
As interesting an idea as it is, I've never felt the need for it. Can you sell the idea to me? Maybe others will have more in-depth thoughts on this?

And if i remove the image from the template how can i bring that back?

Click the little icon in the left corner of the window header, click "Customise".
Click the "Add" button.
Choose "Expression"
Name it "Image File" (without quotes)
Enter the following in the expression field: Custom(Image)
Use the up/down buttons to place it where you want it and press OK
Job done.

Other expressions you can use include:
custom(advanced) Groups all the other existing fields you haven't specifically chosen already.
custom(tagdump) Shows the actual tags contained within the file itself.
custom(playlists) Shows the "Playlists" tree in (kind of) the same way as the regular old tag window. See my comments on this above, reply #'s 10 & 11.

Right now the fields are alignment on the right side, can this be changes to the left side, or, to make an option how the column are set up (Left, Center, Right). Old one have the alignment on the left side.

We have no control over alignment, nor the width allowed for the field names.

If i have more to ask i will be back on this thread. Thanks.

Please use this thread. Thank you.

Forget to add.
On the old tag system if we right click anywhere in the tag we can customize, right now we are limited to the button of tag or on the fields.

That's already been brought up, but no change yet. Getting out of edit mode is so simple in the regular tag window, but not so much in the experimental one. Ctrl+Enter after editing a large edit field type is working great, but that has been the last real change in quite a while now.

Hope that helps. The new tag window is very neat, but there's certainly some arguing to get through before it's really, really ready

-marko

[SkGe]

Thank you Marko for redirecting me to this thread. If i saw in the first place i will write here but now im here. . So i will dump my thread then. The ideea is free to use no need to sell it

[glynor]

For the record, I've been holding off on re-writing the Tagging article and adding a modern Tag Action Window article on the Wiki until the new Tag AW becomes the default (and/or the old one dies).

I also, suppose, I should switch over to it and use it. But I like to use defaults where I can, and until the default changes, I've been reticent to change to the new one. It has gone on awfully long in super-secret "experimental" status.

[marko]

glynor, aside from the speed bumps mentioned above, it's really pretty good, and one of my concerns not voiced, namely, quickly adding a field you realised you need but isn't there, isn't a concern at all. It's pretty quickly added once you get used to it. Get yourself on the bleeding edge of tag windows, I think you might like it

SkGe,
"Sell it to me" in that context, is an expression of speech. What I mean is: "I can't immediately see why I would want that behaviour, can you tell me what benefit you feel it would bring?"
My own personal approach when using the tag window is "find the field, then check or edit or enter the data". My mind is always "field first". I have a kind of map of my library in my head, so I know what data is where, so, when I'm searching for files, I just 'know' the best field to search on to get the files I'm after, therefore, I can't see why I would need the tag window to search the data as well as the field names....

-marko

[marko]

Now that a new major build is almost upon us, is there any possibility that the issues I raised in post #10 above could be given some attention?
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101448.msg705653#msg705653

Also, in addition to those, there's another, that has been mentioned before, just not here, namely...
With the tag window open, but not full height, and with enough fields on show to cause a scrollbar, put one of the fields near the top into edit mode, and scroll the tag window...
The field that is in edit mode scrolls up, out of the tag window boundary, floating over the tree...
   
Would be great if that could be fixed too...

[blgentry]

I have found a pretty bad behavior with the ETAW that crashes MC every single time.  I hope someone else can verify the behavior.  Here's how to do it:

Set up a custom ETAW profile for whatever media type and subtype you are editing.  I'm doing it for Video, Home Video.  Make a section for "Visible Fields".  In the top section have a list type field like Keywords.  Have that same field be visible in the view.  So, Keywords in the view.  Keywords as a field in the top section.  Below that an All Visible Fields section.

Now, tag a single file.  Add a keyword to it and press enter.  It should save that keyword.  Now, edit it again in the ETAW:  Uncheck that keyword, or any other.  Press enter to save.  MC should crash.

Thanks to anyone who helps verify.

Brian.

[Matt]

I have found a pretty bad behavior with the ETAW that crashes MC every single time.  I hope someone else can verify the behavior.  Here's how to do it:

Thanks for that.

Hopefully we'll have a fix in the next build.

Cheers.

[blgentry]

^ Awesome.  Thanks. 

Brian.

[marko]

Morning Brian,
You mentioned in another thread that my scrolling issue might not be explained clearly enough, or, perhaps, it's only me?

Can you open the ETW and make sure it has a scroll bar.
Then open a 'large edit' field, like description, or lyrics, for editing. It too should have a scroll bar.
Now, place the mouse inside the edit box and scroll the wheel.

For me, both edit box, and the entire tag window scroll at the same time.
Do you (or anyone else) see that?

[ferday]

Marko, I can confirm that behaviour

[blgentry]

Can you open the ETW and make sure it has a scroll bar.
Then open a 'large edit' field, like description, or lyrics, for editing. It too should have a scroll bar.
Now, place the mouse inside the edit box and scroll the wheel.

For me, both edit box, and the entire tag window scroll at the same time.
Do you (or anyone else) see that?

I tried this with the ETAW and the "All fields" group open.  So there was definitely a scroll bar due to all of the fields.  Then I edited the lyrics field.  Because it was empty I typed a bunch of single character lines and returns until it was longer than the edit box, so I could get a scroll bar inside the lyrics field editor.  I tried scrolling in that field and it worked normally.  I also popped it out into the detached window editor and scrolled there, then popped it back in and tried scrolling in both areas.  It worked normally in all cases.

I guess this is probably because I'm using the Mac version?  MC21.0.83 for Mac.

Brian.