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[Vocalpoint]

I just discovered this issue over the weekend in v21 but would like to know if it is present in v22.

For the basic background see this detail in this thread:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=106403.0

I use two unique instances of MC. One instance is on my personal PC. It is where I do my tagging. The other instance is our HTPC. It is running MC as a Media Server and has 3 other "clients" on the network that access this instance.

The network location (music files) for BOTH instances are the same (\\SERVER\Music). This allows me to edit tracks in my PC (without the hangups of being an authenticated "client") and have those changes be picked up via MC Auto Import on the HTPC so all stations get the same metadata.

UPDATE: With more testing today - I have discovered that MC (Media Server) does in fact "auto-update" it's library correctly - but only when the ratings value is increased.

Ex: If I move the ratings stars on a track (using my standalone "non client" instance of MC) from 2 to 4 - and have the tags be written to the file on the network - then do a manual "auto-import" over on the HTPC - the change in ratings (higher) is picked up correctly on that song.

However - if I reduce the ratings on the same track on my standalone version of MC - from say - 4 stars to 0 stars - and then do a manual "auto-import" over on the HTPC - the Vorbis information on that specific file - is imported correctly. When I examine detailed Vorbis info (FLAC files BTW) - there is no reference to any ratings values.

But within the "view" within MC - (I am using Artist view for the testing)  - the ratings stars onscreen for that track - REMAIN at 4.

Clearly there is an issue here - either with MC not translating the Vorbis data back to the library or this view correctly - or something else is going on.

I have made a few hundred ratings changes to tracks in the last few weeks - assuming that these ratings would translate correctly via Auto Import within the HTPC library - when i fact - it looks like I have wasted a ton of hours as many of my changes (specifically ratings reductions) have now been lost.

Would love to see if anyone else has experienced something like this and if a dev can remark on what I am describing.

[JimH]

Why are you referring to Vorbis?  Is there anything unusual about your tagging of FLAC files?

[Vocalpoint]

Why are you referring to Vorbis?  Is there anything unusual about your tagging of FLAC files?

Jim

I am assuming that the internal Vorbis block detail (which can be viewed by clicking that FLAC link at the top of the tag window) is somehow responsible for the data that enters the actual MC library upon Auto Import. Of course I am happy to be wrong on this.

If MC is not getting it's metadata (specifically for FLAC files) for the library from the Vorbis block (upon auto import) - I would love to know where it is getting it from - because there is a problem here.

To your question - ALL my tagging occurs within MC (and has for years).

After my panic on this issue - to ensure I was not seeing things - I actually moved a single album OUT of the file server location and over to my local drive (so I would force an instant drop within the HTPC library (when it does an auto import scan at it's interval).

Then using my personal PC instance of MC - I proceeded to strip ALL tag data from all ten songs (Select all->right click and choose Remove tags) After selecting this command - MC posts a message that all tags have been stripped.

Then if I go into the Vorbis block data for ALL files - there is zero tag info there. The Vorbis block is just 40 bytes with nothing relevant to the FLAC file except the required basic Vorbis block template data.

Then - I choose Analyze Audio on all files - let it run - and then examine the Vorbis block again. It is now is then filled with a ton of stuff ranging from DR values to my custom fields (like Chart and Peak), the basic fields like Artist, album, date and of course - you can now see a clear reference to the Ratings value - if any. About three or 4 lines into the block data segment - you will see something like Rating=1 (if one star is assigned). If the song has no rating at all - there is no reference to a rating value in the Vorbis block anywhere.

Then to ensure apples to apples - I take this super clean freshly tagged FLAC album and send it back out the music network location (\\SERVER\Music) and let the Auto Import mechanism on the HTPC pick it up. As expected - it imports that album identical in every way to how I see the files on my PC. The Vorbis block data is identical. Tagging data in the editor is identical and The rating stars on screen are identical - everything looks perfect.

Then for all important ratings test: If I increase the rating star values on just one track from that album - say from no stars to 1 star - using my personal PC to edit - and let that change be written to the FLAC file in the network location - and then quickly switch over to the HTPC instance of MC (using Remote Desktop) and run Auto import manually - the rating change - on JUST THAT SONG - is correctly picked up by MC.

This is what I was assuming Auot Import should do 24x7x365 with no worry.

But imagine my surprise when I discovered - if I reduce the ratings stars on that same track (again - from MY PC) - but changing it from 1 star to no stars and let that change be written to the FLAC file - and do another manual auto-import on the HTPC (again via Remote desktop) - MC brings in the Vorbis block data identically (no ratings star value embedded) but the ratings stars on that track - as it appears in a view onscreen - do NOT change. The rating sits at one star.

And no amount of refreshing, re-importing or Update Library from tags or anything else will actually make the intended song rating drop from 1 star to zero.

So that is my issue here. There is something funky going on in MC's Auto Import (especially Update for External Changes) or some other area (Media Server component?) when MC detects changes have occurred in the folder locations that I am asking our HTPC to monitor.

For certain - this very detailed test shows that even after a hard core forced removal of all existing tag data, then a replacement with clean data all using MC - Auto import (media server) is still not importing "reduced" ratings changes correctly.

VP

[JimH]

Could you please try to provide details without comments?  The verbosity makes it hard to see what's happening.

You're just doing normal tagging in MC and there are no Ogg files or anything special about tagging.

[Vocalpoint]

Could you please try to provide details without comments?  The verbosity makes it hard to see what's happening. You're just doing normal tagging in MC and there are no Ogg files or anything special about tagging.

Jim,

Since this is so weird - I had to include some massive detail but I will condense it for ya - into a single sentence:

Q: If I change the rating stars on a FLAC file (that resides in \\SERVER\MUSIC) using my standalone instance of MC - from 3 stars to 0 stars - when that song is picked up via Auto Import on my Media Server instance of MC (which is pointing to \\SERVER\Music) why are the ratings on that song not updated correctly (they remain at 3)?

And I believe you may be wrong about the Vorbis block. It is getting populated with LOTS of tag data when editing any FLAC file in MC.

My assumption was that this data has to serve some purpose. If it's not used to populate the MC library - why is it there?

And - if it's not used at all - how does MC get all it's tag info for the library when importing a FLAC file?

VP

[JimH]

To make it easier to follow, here's how it could look:

If I change the rating stars on a FLAC file (that resides in \\SERVER\MUSIC) using my standalone instance of MC - from 3 stars to 0 stars - when that song is picked up via Auto Import on my Media Server instance of MC (which is pointing to \\SERVER\Music) why are the ratings on that song not updated correctly (they remain at 3)?

[JimH]

Or better still:

Files are FLAC.  They are on \\SERVER\MUSIC
 
Using my standalone instance of MC, if I change the rating from 3 stars to 0, and that song is picked up via Auto Import on my Media Server instance of MC , the ratings on that song are not updated correctly.  They remain at 3.

[JimH]

Antivirus?

[JimH]

You're also doing something MC isn't designed for when you have two copies operating directly on the same set of files.

I know you've said you have a good reason, but MC on your server should be handling that and the second machine should be a client.

And no, I can't explain why increasing the rating works, but decreasing it doesn't.

[Vocalpoint]

And no, I can't explain why increasing the rating works, but decreasing it doesn't.

I was hoping that DEV could chime in if you have no idea what's happening here.

Clearly there is a problem - in that MC imports correctly for one situation and does not for another.

VP

[Vocalpoint]

You're also doing something MC isn't designed for when you have two copies operating directly on the same set of files.

I do not think this is a case of what MC was designed to do - it's a case of MC not detecting changes to network files correctly. I could be editing FLAC files with Notepad if I wanted to. Should not matter as long as the files changes are detected and imported correctly to the HTPC library.

And - no antivirus is not in use anywhere. Makes no sense that an increase in ratings are imported correctly while a reduction is not. Cannot see how AV has anything to do with that.

VP

[JimH]

I understand you think it's a bug.  It's possible, but I don't think so yet.

The increase/decrease may be a false clue.  It may be something about timing of import.  But, as I said, you're using MC in an unsupported / not recommended way.  You have two copies of MC operating on the same files at the same time.

[Vocalpoint]

I understand you think it's a bug.  It's possible, but I don't think so yet.

What makes you think that?

The increase/decrease may be a false clue.  It may be something about timing of import.

There should be no timing issue as I am forcing Auto Import on the HTPC on demand. What could be different about me pressing Auto Import Now - vs waiting for Auto Import to happen on it's own?

I just thought that someone could at least verify what I am seeing and maybe comment on why it's possibly a bug or by design.

VP

[JimH]

There is always hope that someone else may be running the same setup and will have the same problem.

But do you understand the risk of having two copies of software changing the same files at the same time?  MC isn't designed as a multi-user database.  For your need, we have the Media Server option.  That is different than what you are doing.

[Vocalpoint]

But do you understand the risk of having two copies of software changing the same files at the same time?  MC isn't designed as a multi-user database.  For your need, we have the Media Server option.  That is different than what you are doing.

I think you are misunderstanding the layout here. There is no "multi-user" anything. My PC uses it's own MC database and the HTPC uses it's own database.

The only thing that is common between the two is the folder location (on the server) of the files. That's it.

It's also very important to know the the HTPC version can never "change" anything either. All it does is sit there running waiting to ingest any changes it gets from \\SERVER\Music. The HTPC version is never accessed by anyone and is never used for library maintenance. The only use it ever gets is playback (Theater Mode) in the movie room via remote and music playback on the PCs that are clients.

So when I edit a few files on my version of MC (on my PC) - those tag changes are written to the physical files on the file server. Then 10 minutes later (or whenever Auto Import decides to fire) the HTPC version of MC scans the music directory, picks up the changes - and presumably updates the changes to it's own library.

Never is any file ever being accessed by two versions of MC and since neither database knows about the other - it's not possible to have contention whatsoever.

In my experience with this layout - this is the first (and only) glitch I have ever encountered. So while it may be an odd concept to you - it works perfectly except for this "ratings" reduction thing - which is very bizarre to me since a ratings increase is flawless.

And I have tried the "client" approach several times in the past but the restrictions are too heavy for my specific requirements.

Appreciate the time.

VP

[DJLegba]

I run the same unsupported/not recommended setup, so I did a quick test and can confirm your report. However, decreased ratings are imported. The only change that doesn't get imported is removing a rating (setting it back to 0). I remember this was something that wasn't even possible at some point, but it was added in response to a user's request. To reset to 0 stars from within MC you have to click the control to the right of the fifth star, and this is the action that doesn't get reflected in the import on the HTPC.

[Vocalpoint]

I run the same unsupported/not recommended setup, so I did a quick test and can confirm your report. However, decreased ratings are imported. The only change that doesn't get imported is removing a rating (setting it back to 0). 

Thanks so much for the report. I definitely can confirm the "0" scenario - but I guess I need to run the reduction scenario as well - like a 4 stars to 3 again.

This morning I could have sworn I took a song from 3 stars to 1 on my PC and saw the rating remain as 3 when I did auto-import on the HTPC.

Will report back when I have had a chance to corner this again.

Cheers!

VP

[Vocalpoint]

Any chance that DEV could look at this and see if a fix could be possible?

Cheers!

VP