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[ronkupper]

After several years of using JRiver I'm still getting confused by this topic and couldn't find a definite answer or defined logic for choosing right.

JRiver officials - could you please put an end to this?

[mwillems]

After several years of using JRiver I'm still getting confused by this topic and couldn't find a definite answer or defined logic for choosing right.

JRiver officials - could you please put an end to this?

As I understand it, the JRSS subwoofer option only exists to create a subwoofer track where none exists in the source material, and does not remove or redirect bass from the mains.  It has no effect on source material that already has an LFE or subwoofer track.  So if you have output format set to 2.1, but play a stereo track, the JRSS subwoofer engages and creates a subwoofer channel for the .1 while leaving the mains full-range.  If you play a 5.1 track, JRSS subwoofer does nothing. 

If you want to do bass redirection, use Room Correction or Parametric Equalizer, not the JRSS subwoofer option.

[ronkupper]

Thanks for helping my fact seeking mission!

So facts:
1. JRSS Subwoofer affects only stereo content when mixing is set to 2.1 (or 5.1/x.1 I assume)


Questions:
1. JRSS Subwoofer has crossover freq (xx Hz low pass) implying that it does redirect bass from the mains when stereo content is upmixed, correct?

2. What happens when we set JRSS Subwoofer to a given low-pass freq AND use Room Correction bass redirection settings? Are they meant to work together? Are they mutually exlusive? Will JRiver recognize this scenario and set Room Correction to remove bass for upmixed stereo content?   

3. For stereo content - Any differences in the way JRSS Subwoofer works on a 2.1/5.1 system versus "Silent with room correction"? 


JRiver guys - This is just too implicit, two settings doing the same function in some scenarios (upmixed stereo) while not in others (LFE channel present)... I mean you wrote the software please oh please don't leave us guessing


P.S. - I just tried JRSS Subwoofer with redirected Bass in Room Correction. When toggling Room Correction On/Off it does seem to result in louder bass (when On), possible double copying of the Bass from two Room Correction & JRSS Subwoofer configured together?

[mwillems]

Thanks for helping my fact seeking mission!

So facts:
1. JRSS Subwoofer affects only stereo content when mixing is set to 2.1 (or 5.1, x.1 I assume)

It would also affect mono, quad, or 5.0 content.  Any content that lacks a native subwoofer channel

Questions:
1. As JRSS Subwoofer has crossover freq (xx Hz low pass) implying that it does redirect bass from the mains when relevant (upmixed stereo content), correct?

No, my understanding is that the crossover frequency is the cutoff for the bass sent to the created subchannel, but no bass is removed from the mains.  So if it's set to 120Hz, all content below 120Hz*
is copied and used to build a sub channel.

*(not exactly because of the way real world crossovers work, but this is fine for the sake of discussion)

2. What happens when we set JRSS Subwoofer to a given low-pass freq AND use Room Correction bass redirection settings? Are they meant to work together?

I'm not sure they are meant to work together in all configurations, but the JRSS subwoofer always and necessarily happens first (because output format must be first in the chain).  It shouldn't matter if both are enabled for 5.1 or 7.1 content, but I can imagine things could get pretty hairy with stereo content. I'd recommend choosing one approach.

3. Any differences in the way JRSS Subwoofer works for stereo content on a 2.1/5.1 system versus "Silent with room correction"?

My understanding is that there's a bit of "secret sauce" processing in the way JRSS builds the subwoofer as opposed to Room Correction which just dutifully copies or redirects the bass.  There's also the subclarity option for the JRSS subwoofer, which is not available for Room Correction.

4. Is it safe to say that if one configured Room Correction than he needs to set "Silent" in Subwoofer even for stereo content?

If you've configured Room Correction to do your bass management, I would personally recommend setting the JRSS subwoofer to silent, but others may have different views.  I use Parametric EQ to do my bass management and have the JRSS subwoofer set to silent myself.

Keep in mind, I'm not a dev, this is just based on my personal testing and having read lots of threads on this over the years.  Test for yourself and see, but the wiki and the tooltips in program seem to confirm these points.

[ronkupper]

Thanks again!

Keep in mind, I'm not a dev, this is just based on my personal testing and having read lots of threads on this over the years.

I know! That is why I wished to finally get a conclusive answer! Dev guys - please don't leave us guessing

My understanding is that there's a bit of "secret sauce" processing in the way JRSS builds the subwoofer as opposed to Room Correction which just dutifully copies or redirects the bass.  There's also the subclarity option for the JRSS subwoofer, which is not available for Room Correction.

So here is a potential issue:
1. "secret sauce" - implies JRSS Subwoofer might be better in some ways than just Room Correction.
2. JRSS Subwoofer does not redirect bass from main speakers to sub when an LFE channel is present (e.g. movies)
3. Setting them together might cause problems with stereo content.

So if these statements are correct it means one has to change the settings manually when switching between Multi-Channel and Stereo or compromise on audio quality for one of them?

[mwillems]

So here is a potential issue:
1. "secret sauce" - implies JRSS Subwoofer might be better in some ways than just Room Correction.
2. JRSS Subwoofer does not redirect bass from main speakers to sub when an LFE channel is present (e.g. movies)
3. Setting them together might cause problems with stereo content.

So if these statements are correct it means one has to compromise on either video or stereo audio optimization?

No, no compromises are needed.  If you're not familiar with zones and zoneswitch, you might want to take a look.  The functionality allows you to create separate groups of settings and automatically switch between them based on user defined rules.  One common zoneswitch use case is creating different zones for multi-channel and stereo content, or different zones for audio and video and then automatically switching between them based on channel count or media type.  I used to have multiple zones setup for audio vs video myself (due to convolution induced latency) and it worked a treat. 

So even if you want the secret sauce for audio and normal bass redirection for video, all can be accomplished so that everything works (more or less seamlessly) in an automated way. 

For my application, the secret sauce is not desirable, so I just picked one way to do it 

[ronkupper]

Knew about it but thought its an overkill to use zone switcher for basic audio settings, but anyway - very cool, thanks!

Still some questions:
1. Regarding "Secret Sauce" is it just Subclarity or the whole JRSS Subwoofer thing?

2. How did you determined "Secret Sauce" as not desirable? I mean any bass management is not "natural" so if something is more advanced why not use it?
(I recall you said PEQ so I assume you manually tuned the bass REW or something?)

I mean apples to apples - it might genuinely be better than Room Correction using the same arbitrary low-pass frequency (e.g. 40Hz). Not fair to compare it to manually tuned PEQ with REW.

3. If following your suggestion and configure zoneswitch between MC and stereo than I assume Room Correction should still be used to remove the bass, right?



Perhaps a consideration for a future version to make these two features better explained / integrated. 

[mwillems]

1. Regarding "Secret Sauce" is it just Subclarity or the whole JRSS Subwoofer thing?

I don't know, I think something other than just subclarity is happening, but I don't know for sure and it may be proprietary (i.e. secret sauce)

2. How did you determined "Secret Sauce" as not desirable? I mean any bass management is not "natural" so if something is more advanced why not use it?
(I recall you said PEQ so I assume you manually tuned the bass REW or something?)

I'm using my sub to try to achieve a neutral bass response below where my mains will play.  So I handled the re-routing and tuning to create a flat measurement on down to 20 Hz.  I'm not necessarily interested in anything other than neutral response, and I'm not 100% sure what the JRSS sub builder is doing (see above).

I mean apples to apples - it might genuinely be better than Room Correction using the same arbitrary low-pass frequency (e.g. 40Hz). Not fair to compare it to manually tuned PEQ with REW.

It may be better.  My point wasn't that it was better or worse, just that I don't use it personally.

3. If following your suggestion and configure zoneswitch between MC and stereo than I assume Room Correction should still be used to remove the bass, right?

If you want to remove bass, that's how I would do it.  That said, if you've lined up your sub crossover point with your mains low-end roll off, you don't actually want to remove the bass as you won't get a neutral response that way.  For example, say your speakers are -3dB at 60Hz and -12dB at 30Hz.  You'd want a sub crossover of 60Hz, and you'd want to avoid removing the bass from the mains as you'd wind up overattenuating them and you'd get a big hole in the combined response between 30Hz and 60Hz. 

Unless you're cutting the bass from your mains an octave or so above the -3dB point, you want to try and match the subwoofer crossover to the natural roll off of the mains.  That's why the JRSS subwoofer doesn't remove the bass from the mains, for most people who are running a sub to extend the low range of their speakers, that's the correct behavior.

Perhaps a consideration for a future version to make these two features better explained / integrated.

I agree, a bit better explanation or integration would probably help.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Hopefully, I understand what you are trying to do.  I agree that linear bass response should be the goal. But, I think I disagree with your assumptions and how best to achieve that.

Unlike you, I firmly believe in hi/low pass xovers for bass management and sub integration.  I do not believe in sending bass signal to a speaker below its rolloff comfort range where it might distort, or draw excessive power from its amp, even combined with the sub output.  In other words, I believe one key advantage of a subwoofer is that it creates a biamped situation by offloading all deep bass duties to the subwoofer and its amp, or multiple subs.  Eliminating the hi pass filter and running the main channels full range defeats that.

My approach is similar to what all HT AVRs and prepros do "out of the box", though they sometimes may offer a secondary option closer to yours, with main fronts run full range.  My old prepro called this option "double bass", but I was never happy with that.  I do not think I agree with your analysis of the negative consequences of simply transferring all frequencies below the crossover point to the sub channel combined with any .1 LFE content from the source medium, which normal bass management does automatically.

I no longer use a prepro.  JRiver, in addition to everything else it does, performs most prepro functions for me, including bass management.  The media I listen to are music and video in 2.0, 3.0, 5.0, 5.1 and 7.1 sound.  For bass management, I have simply used Room Correction to set channel by channel hi/lo pass xovers as appropriate above the response rolloff points for each speaker channel per measurements. And, to do that, the JRSS mixer setting is Silent.  It works perfectly and it sounds great. 

Incidentally, I use Dirac Live for DSP correction, not PEQ.  I also use Zoneswitch, but all my zones contain the same bass management parameters in Room Correction.

[mwillems]

Hopefully, I understand what you are trying to do.  I agree that linear bass response should be the goal. But, I think I disagree with your assumptions and how best to achieve that.

Unlike you, I firmly believe in hi/low pass xovers for bass management and sub integration.  I do not believe in sending bass signal to a speaker below its rolloff comfort range where it might distort, or draw excessive power from its amp, even combined with the sub output.  In other words, I believe one key advantage of a subwoofer is that it creates a biamped situation by offloading all deep bass duties to the subwoofer and its amp, or multiple subs.  Eliminating the hi pass filter and running the main channels full range defeats that.

My approach is similar to what all HT AVRs and prepros do "out of the box", though they sometimes may offer a secondary option closer to yours, with main fronts run full range.  My old prepro called this option "double bass", but I was never happy with that.  I do not think I agree with your analysis of the negative consequences of simply transferring all frequencies below the crossover point to the sub channel combined with any .1 LFE content from the source medium, which normal bass management does automatically.

I no longer use a prepro.  JRiver, in addition to everything else it does, performs most prepro functions for me, including bass management.  The media I listen to are music and video in 2.0, 3.0, 5.0, 5.1 and 7.1 sound.  For bass management, I have simply used Room Correction to set channel by channel hi/lo pass xovers as appropriate above the response rolloff points for each speaker channel per measurements. And, to do that, the JRSS mixer setting is Silent.  It works perfectly and it sounds great. 

Incidentally, I use Dirac Live for DSP correction, not PEQ.  I also use Zoneswitch, but all my zones contain the same bass management parameters in Room Correction.

I think you've misunderstood me.  I'm a big believer in symmetrical high and low pass filters for crossover points, and of biamping. That's exactly what I do in my own setup for the transition to the sub (I "remove the bass" and treat the sub as though it were another stage of a bi- or tri-amped speaker).  The key language in my post was "Unless you're cutting the bass from your mains an octave or so above the -3dB point, you want to try and match the subwoofer crossover to the natural roll off of the mains."  My point is that if you plan to remove bass in room correction you need to place your crossover high enough that your mains are still flat at the crossover point.  If you set the crossover near your speaker's natural roll off *and* remove the bass your doing a double reduction.  In that scenario "removing the bass" means you get half bass.  Keeping the bass in that scenario is single bass (not double bass), because the speaker's natural response rolloff functions as a crossover filter already (typically 12dB/octave for sealed, 24dB/octave for vented).  This is easy to measure and confirm, although it may look a little funky as JRiver uses butterworths by default which also don't sum flat.

If you're removing bass you either need to cross over your speakers high enough that your mains are still flat at the crossover point, or you need to take into account the ripple that you're introuducing some other way.  I personally cross my mains to my sub high enough that both are flat at the crossover point, and use symmetrical crossovers that effectively remove the bass, but that technique won't get you a flat response if you cross near the speaker's -3dB point (unless you EQ the ripple out another way later on).  It's as though you're applying two high pass filters instead of one in the latter case. 

I agree that it's not ideal to rely on a speaker's rolloff when it can be avoided, but I feel like a signifcant number of users have bookshelf or home theater speakers with -3dB points around 80 or 100Hz.  For those sorts of speakers crossing to the sub at 160 or 200Hz isn't really an option (as most subs don't play nicely that high) so using the speaker's rolloff can be the lesser of two evils.  In any case, my point was just that you're likely to get a significant non-linearity if you remove the bass and you set the crossover point at or near your speaker's -3dB point, I wasn't commenting on the desirability of setting the crossover at any particular frequency, just trying to make the consequences clear.

[stewart_pk]

I only have a 2ch system although I do have subwoofers.
The "(more info)" mouse-over in DSP Studio ---> Output Format explains it well enough to me, at least for my purposes anyway.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I think you've misunderstood me.  I'm a big believer in symmetrical high and low pass filters for crossover points, and of biamping. That's exactly what I do in my own setup for the transition to the sub (I "remove the bass" and treat the sub as though it were another stage of a bi- or tri-amped speaker).  The key language in my post was "Unless you're cutting the bass from your mains an octave or so above the -3dB point, you want to try and match the subwoofer crossover to the natural roll off of the mains."  My point is that if you plan to remove bass in room correction you need to place your crossover high enough that your mains are still flat at the crossover point.  If you set the crossover near your speaker's natural roll off *and* remove the bass your doing a double reduction.  In that scenario "removing the bass" means you get half bass.  Keeping the bass in that scenario is single bass (not double bass), because the speaker's natural response rolloff functions as a crossover filter already (typically 12dB/octave for sealed, 24dB/octave for vented).  This is easy to measure and confirm, although it may look a little funky as JRiver uses butterworths by default which also don't sum flat.

If you're removing bass you either need to cross over your speakers high enough that your mains are still flat at the crossover point, or you need to take into account the ripple that you're introuducing some other way.  I personally cross my mains to my sub high enough that both are flat at the crossover point, and use symmetrical crossovers that effectively remove the bass, but that technique won't get you a flat response if you cross near the speaker's -3dB point (unless you EQ the ripple out another way later on).  It's as though you're applying two high pass filters instead of one in the latter case. 

I agree that it's not ideal to rely on a speaker's rolloff when it can be avoided, but I feel like a signifcant number of users have bookshelf or home theater speakers with -3dB points around 80 or 100Hz.  For those sorts of speakers crossing to the sub at 160 or 200Hz isn't really an option (as most subs don't play nicely that high) so using the speaker's rolloff can be the lesser of two evils.  In any case, my point was just that you're likely to get a significant non-linearity if you remove the bass and you set the crossover point at or near your speaker's -3dB point, I wasn't commenting on the desirability of setting the crossover at any particular frequency, just trying to make the consequences clear.

Gotcha, and I think we agree.  Best to hi/low pass cross over in a frequency range somewhat above the mains' natural rolloff, which is hopefully low enough in frequency so that the comfortable upper limits of the sub are not exceeded.  It is a good idea to measure in room response to set the crossover frequencies.

Also, the xover should ideally be low enough in frequency to avoid perceptual localization of the bass to the sub or subs.  80 Hz is often recommended as an upper limit, provided the mains comfortably can go down somewhat lower than that.  But, even slightly higher than 80 still can work well.  I use 90 on my center channel because its rolloff starts a little higher than my mains, which use 60.  My surrounds use 80.

So, Bass Management in JR Room Correction works well for me without JRSS mixing - Silent.

[ronkupper]

Good discussion guys, I've learned a few things.

So the question of the topic rises - as per @Fitzcaraldo215's example what would have been the difference between Silent JRSS Sub + Redirect at 60Hz in Room Correction vs. JRSS Sub at 60Hz + Remove at 60Hz in Room Correction?