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Author Topic: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting  (Read 3936 times)

JSmithson

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OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« on: July 10, 2003, 09:35:48 am »

Hi...
   I'm currently working on our new house. My PC is going to be in a different room from the stereo. (About a 40ft. run). I'm looking for advice about the best way to wire so that I can use MC to play music through out the house.
Some say wireless... (but has interference).. Long RCA cables have sound deteriation... etc
Thanks
Jim
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Matt

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2003, 09:45:16 am »

A cheap way is to run SPDIF from the PC to the amp.  That way the transmission is all digital.  You'll need a soundcard and amp that support it, but most do.

You can use regular TV cable for the run with RCA ends if you want to do it extra cheap.
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loraan

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2003, 10:11:22 am »

Consider: how much will your solution end up costing you?
Consider: a new PC and a 50 foot Ethernet cable could be had for less than about $400 (sans monitor, but you could use your TV if it has a spare input).

Just thinking outside the box...

I like the SP/DIF suggestion, though.
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Wobbley

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2003, 10:15:51 am »

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zevele10

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2003, 11:38:13 am »

Look like it plays only MP3 .no APE or OGg
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Wobbley

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2003, 01:30:13 pm »

Here are the main options you have:

RCA - http://www.rca.com/product/viewdetail/0,2588,PI700436-CI700245,00.html?
cd3o - http://www.cd3o.com/
Onkyo - http://reviews.cnet.com/Onkyo_Net_Tune_NC_500/4505-6466_7-20898274.html?tag=pdtl-img
NetPlay Radio - http://reviews.cnet.com/NetPlay_Radio/4505-6466_7-1993297-2.html?tag=review

None of these options have .ogg or .ape playback.  Actually, I'm not aware of any wireless method that handles .ogg or .ape. because the unit would have to decode that file type into .wav and those formats aren't popular enough for the manufacturers to build that in yet.

Your only real option, at that distance, and if you're using .ogg or .ape file types, is to run a wire from the soundcard on PC to input of receiver.  But, you can't use SP/DIF because you can't get a cable (maybe custom amde?) 40 feet long (plus you'd lose a decent amount of sound quality with a cable that long).

If you want to be able to view, select, and play your files while sitting in front of the TV or stereo, and not sitting in front of the PC that's 40+ feet away, you're going to have to go with a wireless option that has it's own media management software.  But, as stated, you won't be able to stream the .ogg or .ape files through it.

Wobbley
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loraan

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2003, 01:35:00 pm »

When you start considering options like the above, the whole "just buy another low-end PC, dedicated to media playback" option looks better and better...
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Wobbley

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2003, 02:01:45 pm »

Personally, I'd buy or build :) a barebones PC, Small hardrive, your OS of choice, decent video card w/ S-Video out for viewing on TV to avoid buying a monitor, get an M-Audio Revolution sound card.  Network the 2 PCs with Cat-5 cable run in the walls, setup up a network drive on the barebones, Install MC on barebones, set default library to networked drive's music folder, and view MC on TV w/ video card.  Get wireless keyboard/mouse and you're good to go.

Wobbley
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AndyCircuit

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2003, 02:48:14 pm »

Wobbley wrote
Quote
Personally, I'd buy or build  a barebones PC, Small hardrive, your OS of choice, decent video card w/ S-Video out for viewing on TV to avoid buying a monitor, get an M-Audio Revolution sound card.  Network the 2 PCs with Cat-5 cable run in the walls, setup up a network drive on the barebones, Install MC on barebones, set default library to networked drive's music folder, and view MC on TV w/ video card.  Get wireless keyboard/mouse and you're good to go.

I do run such a system at home (ok almost) and think it's the most flexible solution. Wireless is possible too but be aware of dropouts or the small bandwith. My main problem is the TV as a monitor. Only 640*480 or  S-VHS is not enough(I use a special 28" TV  with VGA input 640*480 @60Hz only,not everything is visible but I can live this limitations)If I use S-VHS small fonts are impossible to read so only Hairstyle is a way to go with a standard TV . Dreaming of a huge TFT or plasma with VGA input of at least 1024*768 but my wife will kill me if I dare to spend $5000+

AC
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kiwi

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2003, 04:53:17 am »

The Slimp3 and audiotron offer interesting options.  The audiotron can stream wave files through it's digital outs... and the slimp3 is absolutely awesome for mp3s.

http://www.slimp3.com/
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Wobbley

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2003, 06:33:18 am »

AndyCircuit,

You might try a program called TVTool.  It works great for viewing low and high resolutions on any TV size and eliminates the "image is larger than screen" problem that people typically have.  I can "share" the app with you if you want to try it before you buy it (don't think there's a trial version). Do a Google search for it first and see if you can find it, if not let me know.

Also, don't worry so much about the Plasma...get a big, wide screen TV with DVI in and get a decent video card w/ DVI out and you'll be surprised at the video quality you can get out of it.  You should be able to find a fairly large widescreen TV w/ DVI in for around 2 grand.

Wobbley
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Eiffel

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2003, 07:19:21 am »

If you want to test the SPDIF solution, I suggest you use a ready made TV antenna cable (shielded RG6 or 56 cable), and connect and RCA to Coax adapter on both ends

(You can get it all at any Radioshack in the US... keeping in mind that they have a no question asked return policy ;) )
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loraan

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2003, 09:05:21 am »

Quote
Wobbley wrote
I do run such a system at home (ok almost) and think it's the most flexible solution. Wireless is possible too but be aware of dropouts or the small bandwith. My main problem is the TV as a monitor. Only 640*480 or  S-VHS is not enough


I run S-Video out to a 37" TV and can use 800x600 comfortably. 1024x768 would be barely usable, but it's not worth the squinting. I'e used two different brands of video card with this PC and found that it did make a difference in the quality of the picture. Not sharpness so much, but ability to tweak the size/position of the picture to match your screen. I also use wireless (802.11) to connect that PC to other PCs and the Internet. Bandwidth is plenty. The biggest cause of dropouts is my cordless 2.4 GHz phone!
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AndyCircuit

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2003, 03:09:31 pm »

loraan wrote:
Quote
I also use wireless (802.11) to connect that PC to other PCs and the Internet. Bandwidth is plenty. The biggest cause of dropouts is my cordless 2.4 GHz phone!

You are absolutly right if we're talking about audio but please remember: MC plays all. Tried this with video over my neighborhood wlan and it worked with AVI/divX unless everything went right(800MB/100min). Since I've connected 5 neighbours to my home I can tell you a lot sad stories about instability of wlan so you may lucky if you see the movie without buffering------ or not. But the mpeg2 files my DVBcard creates (HD recording)---no way! (3-4GB/movie)

@Wobbley
Thanks for the tip with TVTool, found it and there's a demo version too. Priced ¤10 it's worth a try anyway.

Quote
Also, don't worry so much about the Plasma...get a big, wide screen TV with DVI in and get a decent video card w/ DVI out and you'll be surprised at the video quality you can get out of it.  You should be able to find a fairly large widescreen TV w/ DVI in for around 2 grand.

Hmm, 2000 instead of 5000 I supposed, almost half the price might be half the 'punishment' by my wife. Maybe I get away from this with serious injuries only  ;D
Never heard of TVsets with DVI until now, will check this tomorrow.

AC
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sraymond

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2003, 07:32:53 pm »

Quote
Tried this with video over my neighborhood wlan and it worked with AVI/divX unless everything went right(800MB/100min).


When encoding with an MPEG4 codec (DivX or Xvid), I try to shoot for 6 MB/min (you mentioned 8 MB/min above)...  which is about 100 kbps.  802.11b should have no problem keeping up with this - even if you assume a modest throughput of 4 Mbps, that's 40 times the throughput needed.

For some reason, though, I have occasional hiccups with video over a WLAN.  I haven't spent time to diagnose the problems - it might be a software firewall issue that eats up too much CPU.

I'm curious if anyone else has luck with video over a WLAN.  If so, what are the details of the setup?

Scott-
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loraan

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WLAN w/ streaming video
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2003, 08:41:18 am »

Professionally, I'm a network engineer, specializing in wireless (802.11), so I can actually speak to that question.

When discussing LAN applications, one of the factors that we define is the "primary performance characteristic" (or, PPC) of the application. The PPC of an application is the single factor that most affects the user's perception of adequate performance. The two main PPCs are bandwidth and latency.

Bandwidth is the amount of data that can be moved per unit time. It is typically measured in bits per second or bytes per second (1 byte = 8 bits). Latency is the response time of the network. Latency can be further broken down into three sub-components: out-bound network latency, processing time, and in-bound network latency. Out-bound network latency is the time it takes a request to get from the "requesting station" to the "requested station". Processing time is the time it takes the "requested station" to think about the request and prepare the answer. In-bound network latency is the time it takes the answer to get back from the "requested station" to the "requesting station".

Consider a huge file download. For this type of application, bandwidth is the PPC. It doesn't matter if the request takes a long time to get from requester to requested station, because the requester can usually send multiple requests at a time. He doesn't have to wait for the answer to come back before sending the next request. Take this example:










Request 1->
Request 2->
Request 3-><-Response 1
Request 4-><-Response 2
......
Request 100-><-Response 98
<-Response 99
<-Response 100


Even though there is a larger delay between each request and its associated response, the net effect is very small compared to the total time of the file transfer, as long as bandiwdth is high.

Now, consider the case of streaming audio/video. Here, the PPC is latency, and more importantly, the consistency of the latency. Your media server is pumping data to your media player at a certain rate and your media player is buffering that data. If, for any reason, the data stream is interrupted, and the buffer empties, then you'll experience a skip.

What could cause this interruption? It's certainly true that in a low-bandwidth environment, such as dialup, this kind of interruption is more likely. The media server goes to send data and there's just no bandwidth left for it to do so. Skip! But once you've got adequate bandwidth for the data stream, adding more doesn't really help, because streaming media sends data at a more-or-less constant rate. If your stream needs 100 Kbps, and there is 4 Mbps available, it doesn't matter--the media server isn't going to ever send more than 100 Kbps!

Another cause of skipping (prevalent in the wireless environment) is corrupted frames. A data frame is sent, but something corrupts it on the way to the receiver so that it is lost. Typically, streaming media does not retransmit corrupted frames because the delay caused by retransmission would be worse than the skip caused by the lost frame. Because 802.11b and 802.11g networks use the very-crowded 2.4 GHz band and because RF signals in general are very succeptible to interference, corrupted frames are very likely even in the best wireless network. Notice that this type of skipping is completely independent of how much bandwidth you've got. You could have 1000 Gbps of bandwidth and a corrupted frame would still cause skipping, because streaming media typically doesn't retransmit corrupted frames. This is the most likely caue of the skipping you're describing.

Now, actually, it turns out that even though the streaming media application won't retransmit a corrupted frames, 802.11 networks themselves have the capability to detect corruption and retransmit. But even when this happens, there is a significant additional delay imposed on packet transmission. This sudden delay can cause skipping in a video stream.

One last thing: before, I said that consistency of latency was the PPC for streaming media. The reason for this is that streaming media can compensate for high latency to some degree. If there is high latency between the server and the player, then there will be a large delay between the time when you hit "play" and the time the stream strats playing, but once it gets going, it will play fine. But if the latency suddenly changes (the network gets slower) then the server and player won't be able to compensate and you'll have a skip.
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AndyCircuit

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2003, 02:28:32 pm »

Thanks to loraan I've answers to some of my problems now. Altough you're undoubtly the expert in wlan I like to add some personal expieriences and thoughts because I suppose many MC users use wlan or plan to use in future. Beside all of this in the post above it seems to me the brand as the firmware is important. I use Dlink devices and the forum is littered with complains about the problems I've mentioned above. (at least the german forum, you could verify if the entire german dlink site would not be offline like right now, funny is'nt it?) But it's the same with SMC as I could see at other places.
I've figured out that it's more stable to run connections in bridge mode instead of infrastructure. (two DWL AP900+ in bridge instead one in bridge and a PCI card in client mode) There were some crashes of my AP infrastructure my notebook (DWL 650+ PMCIA) and three neighbours (AP900+ and USB client) are linked to and I had to restart by power off. I have to walk only five minutes to meet two other people with the same problem (different brands). It was never a problem with signal strengh or quality and also not a crowded 2,4 ghz range, it just happend for unknown reasons

Wlanrouters is a different story,IMO it's better to use a ethernet router and a seperate AP
You may face some limitations e.g. it's not possible in point to multi-point bridge mode to ping each other inside this segment: (Router---->ap mutipoint---->point A,B,C. Point A computers can see the router and every computer behind multipoint but not computers behind point B and C,same with B and C) This is with the latest firmware and there's no information if it will be fixed with a new firmware some time or not.
All this above are only some of the annoyances I have to struggle. I'm not a professional but since my first computer was a XT and I've wired networks since RG58 I dare to rate myself as expierienced at least. Imagine you are without technical background!

(loraan, tell me the devices you use please  ;) )

On balance I would say
1: If easy to do take Cat5
2: If not take the devices loraan has or read the forums first before purchase.

BTW, was listening to the street music from JimH's totally different threat on my notebook (only WMP 6.1). But only the first 45 sec, then the playback bar suddenly reached the download bar and the playback ended with the errormessage 'invalid file format'
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loraan

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2003, 05:16:05 pm »

I use a Linksys 802.11b wireless router. I have a Linksys 802.11b PCI card in my HTPC. My Dell laptop has a built-in 802.11 connection as well as a Cisco 350 802.11b PCMCIA card and an ORiNOCO 802.11b Gold PCMCIA card (both for work). I agree that brand makes a difference, but I couldn't say whether Linksys is better or worse than, say, D-Link, NetGear, or SMC. I have no complaints. I rarely have to reboot the wireless router. I sometimes have to re-set the Linksys PCI client, but that is badly designed drivers, not really a crash (Linksys drivers don't reconnect to the network if connection is lost in certain circumstances). I've had no problem with the Cisco or ORiNOCO cards. I'm running in infrastructure mode, not ad-hoc.
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JimH

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2003, 05:24:32 pm »

Loraan,
Thanks for the nice post with all the detail.  I've learned some things from it.

I also use Linksys equipment at home.  In general, I like it.

Jim
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jfmus

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2003, 05:54:23 pm »

I bought a 36 foot rca stereo cable from Radio Shack and ran it to my Harmon Kardon amp with spdif output of my soundcard to the digital input on the amp. Then I used the other for video. Works great. The back wall of my office shares the wall that my couch is on. So I bought wall plates (again at Radio Shack) and wired up the jacks. Looks nice and I don't have wires sticking out of wall.

I debated the extra computer, but I was so happy with the quality of the digital out, it didn't make any sense to spend the money.

jfmus
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Mysticeti

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Re: OT - PC to Stereo Connecting
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2003, 06:28:25 pm »

The Xitel Pro HiFi-Link might just work.  Looks like the include cables are a bit short though.

Here's a review:

http://www.envynews.com/review.php?ID=478
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