Topic: Sound Quality Battle (Read 10099 times)

escaflo · « **on:** July 01, 2003, 12:26:45 am »

Hiya,

I got a friend who says that MediaCenter playback quality loses out to Winamp. But to me, I can't really hear a difference (maybe because of my soundcard, I'm using Live! while he's using MAudio Revolution). Just want to know what most of you guys think?

Compare MediaCenter audio quality (playing back on mp3s) to Winamp,MusicMatch,WMP and etc..

I just want to have some idea.

Thanks.

zevele10 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 01, 2003, 12:52:55 am »

Cannot say about WinAmp

But MC beats all the others you noticed

escaflo · « **Reply #2 on:** July 01, 2003, 01:25:42 am »

I've just realized that with JSS 5.1, it sounds a lot better. Without it, MC somehow seems to sound a little muffled? Anybody got this kinda experience with MC?

kiwi · « **Reply #3 on:** July 01, 2003, 02:28:01 am »

What sort of files are you playing back? MP3s? Ogg? APE? How were they encoded?

kiwi

escaflo · « **Reply #4 on:** July 01, 2003, 02:36:20 am »

Mp3s at 128/192 kbps.

Some is also at variable bit rate. But all of them will be at mp3s format. Comparison is done on the same song.

Wobbley · « **Reply #5 on:** July 01, 2003, 02:46:43 am »

are the songs he's playing/comparing the same song and at the same bitrates (i.e. his and yours played are both at 128 and not yours at 128 and his at 192)? 128 sounds like crap to me, no matter you play it on, so clarify and we'll go from there...

Wobbley

P.S. I use M-Audio Revolution as well

dragyn · « **Reply #6 on:** July 01, 2003, 02:48:50 am »

If he thinks a 128/192 mp3 is 'great quailty', he better get some new ears.

APE is where it's at. MC does a really good job for playing them back. I've also used winamp in the same installation and noticed a lack of SQ.

zevele10 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 01, 2003, 03:02:58 am »

Check that all the players do not have any equaliseur ,DSP effect on.

Now ,concerning MP3 128 ,the best the player and/or the soundcard or stereo system or headphones, the worst the sound .
If i play MP3 Lame 192 or OGG at medium level ,hard to say who is the best.
But ,if i play LOUD ,the treebles in the mp3 are allmost unbearable , not with OGG .

Anyway ,i just don't care who is the best ,i use MC.

Listen to MM , the sound look like A BAD JOKE
Listen to RealOne , not bad
Listen to WMP , not bad at all.

Listen to MC and FreeAmp ,they are the best.

Again ,i never used WinAmp ,so i cannot say.

TIP : If you play mp3 128 on a stereo system ,set MC equalizer to 'Classic' , it helps

escaflo · « **Reply #8 on:** July 01, 2003, 03:10:10 am »

Actually, before using MC and coming to this forum, I only listen to mp3 at 128kbps. But ever since I came here, and experience the difference between Ogg, Ape and Mp3s, I have decided to encode all my cds to Ogg (at least smaller filesize than Ape. Don't really have that much harddisk space).

So the mp3 he was using to test is at 128 kbps and we are both using the same mp3s. But the difference between me and him is that he claims that Winamp has a better clarity than MC when playing that mp3 while I say that actually they both sound almost the same. Though when I first use MC, I can tell that MC is better than Winamp that's why I bought it.

Quote:
Anyway ,i just don't care who is the best ,i use MC.

Actually I also agree with this. But I am just trying to find out on what is the general consensus on the quality of playback on MC.

Thanks for all the feedback so far.
I just luv this forum.

Wobbley · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2003, 03:12:31 am »

escaflow,

What encoder was used to make the mp3 file?

Wobbley

kiwi · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2003, 03:27:05 am »

So with APEs, are there any programs that play them better than MC?

jakobluck · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2003, 05:05:59 am »

foobar2000 supposedly has the best sound quality of all the players.

escaflo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2003, 05:38:45 am »

Wobbley,

The file is encoded using MC with Lame settings with --alt-present standard (I think that's how the line go. Lazy to double check)

Yeah so I heard too. Foobar is supposingly to be a very good player. But in terms of interface, I think Foobar is one of the worst? No idea, only saw it being use by my friends.

Matt · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2003, 05:45:00 am »

MC is bit perfect when playing back audio. It doesn't get better than that.

MC also has some nice goodies like:

purely 32-bit DSP chain
crossfading, gapless, silence suppression, etc. built in
native ASIO support
native Replay Gain (32-bit)

But to be fair, most players are probably bit perfect without DSP. I'd guess that people that hear big differences between major players either have a DSP on, have the volume goofed up, or have been told "brand x sounds better" so it does for them.

Thanks everyone.

escaflo · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2003, 09:47:50 am »

Matt, actually I do believe that MC is a very good player. Just that I just can't figure out why is it that they keep saying Winamp and Creative Mediasource (the one player that I will never ever use and I just heard this from another friend who say that Creative Mediasource sounds better than Winamp and MC.) is better.

I do believe that it might be a mindset thingy. One of the reason why I am asking this is that when I compare the quality of the sound using my system (Live! with Logitech z560 modified with a set of Wharfedale as front satellite), I can't really hear a lot of difference. I am thinking it might be because of my soundcard. After all, it is still a crappy Live!.

The two of my friends who actually make a comparison and said that MC is not as clear is using M-Audio Revolution and Terratec Aureon Sky. Both are a 24 bit soundcard. As such, it makes me think that maybe they did not configure MC probably to deliver the best output with their soundcard. And also, as I am looking for a better soundcard now, I am very inclined to take their point of view into consideration. Thus the idea of posting here. I would like to know what most of you all think of MC as a mp3 player in terms of sound quality.

Anyway, I would like to thanks all the people who have responded.

Keep the comments coming. Thanks a lot.

PS: I might sound a bit incoherent above, but I have not much idea of how to express myself clearly. Hope you all can understand it.

Edit:
PSS: I do believe that it is because of the DSP of the player. Does anyone has any idea on how good is the Winamp DSP compares to MC?

rocketsauce · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2003, 09:50:31 am »

Just for fun, do a blind test with your friend. Have him blindfolded and then playback the tracks in both players and see if he can tell which is which. Make sure all DSP/Replay Gain stuff is turned off in both players.

Rob

gkerber · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2003, 10:11:34 am »

Quote

I do believe that it might be a mindset thingy.

Obviously there are some better players and sound cards, but that said, most of the differences people claim they hear is in their minds (in my opinion). I used to sell audio equipment and I was simply amazed at the pre-concieved mindsets customers came into the store with. Some buddy told them them something about some piece of equipment and that is the only thing they'd look at or consider. Peer pressure is alive and well when it comes to audio equipment perceptions.

Most equipment sold today is simply wonderful and neutral. Speakers will make the biggest difference in what you hear over anything else. Spend an extra few hundred on speakers and you can improve your sound a billion times more than spending that extra few hundred on cables....

Every generation of audio sellers has something they sell with a HUGE profit margin. Back in the 70's it was phono cartridges. We sold a Shure M91ED (how did I remember that model number...) cartridges. Retail was $54.95, we bought them in bulk for $5 each! Today the huge smoke and mirror HUGE profit margin item is cables. Audio stores push them hard, not because they sound better, but because of the profit margin. If I ever sell audio again (shudder), just ask me about cable, you need them.... (never trust an audio salesman).

zevele10 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2003, 10:30:11 am »

escaflo

Since one month i have the AudioBlaster Extigy external sound card.
I have only praise.

Concerning cable ,i use the ones they sell at Ace Hardware shop- we have it here-
Cheap , but giving really good results
Beside this i changed my regular 1 to 2 cable [ from soundcard to amp Aux ] for a good one . A german brand at $10 the set ,and really the sound is much much better.

nila · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2003, 10:57:15 am »

I've heard the live has a really bad DAC in it.

I get a bad hissing from mine and I've been told it's the soundcard not the speakers.

I have a live 5.1 oem.

Matt · « **Reply #19 on:** July 01, 2003, 11:15:37 am »

Quote

I get a bad hissing from mine (sound card)

Make sure you mute the line-in and microphone lines, or else you're amping any ambient noise.

Quote

Most equipment sold today is simply wonderful and neutral. Speakers will make the biggest difference in what you hear over anything else. Spend an extra few hundred on speakers and you can improve your sound a billion times more than spending that extra few hundred on cables....

I get a stereo catalog where half of the thing is dedicated to "high quality interconnects" (wires) They sell consumer speaker wires that cost north of $10,000 a set. Makes me feel like quite a schmuck for always using lamp cord...

zevele10 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 01, 2003, 11:35:18 am »

consumer speaker wires that cost north of $10,000 a set

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now ,as long as you have idiots ,you have people reading to sell them something-- and they are right..-

As i said many times on this forum:
I know few people who have a $$$$$$$$$$$X12345678 stereo system.
They speak ONLY about the technical side of they stuff ,but ,THEY NEVER SPEAK ABOUT MUSIC....

escaflo · « **Reply #21 on:** July 01, 2003, 02:32:58 pm »

Quote

I've heard the live has a really bad DAC in it.

I get a bad hissing from mine and I've been told it's the soundcard not the speakers.

I have a live 5.1 oem.

I agreed. Live got a bad DAC for their front output. Their rear output have a better DAC. One reason why I uses KX Driver. It allows you to swap the output, and trust me, it does makes a world of difference in terms of sound quality. Some people might not agree but I do believe that KX Driver really make my cheap Live! sounds a lot better. You should try it. Might be a bit buggy but so far the experience it gives me is nothing more of astonishing and I can tell you this, it is way better than Creative drivers at any time.

Right now my friends are still talking about Winamp, Mediasource and now Steinberg Mp3 Player. But well, not really gonna bother about those software because they sucks in library management anyway. Also it is 6 am over here (Australia) and I am still ripping out my cds collection in Ogg format.

I think I am way pass my bedtime.

MachineHead · « **Reply #22 on:** July 01, 2003, 03:24:30 pm »

Quote

I get a stereo catalog where half of the thing is dedicated to "high quality interconnects" (wires) They sell consumer speaker wires that cost north of $10,000 a set. Makes me feel like quite a schmuck for always using lamp cord...

Unreal. You could use electric fence wire and not notice to much of a difference as long as it wasn't touching anything besides the contacts.

These are the only two players I use now: MC and foobar.

foobar does as good of a job as MC as far as playback. And can even go up to 64 bit internal precision. But even Peter has said this was overkill for just about everything. Interface is minimalist in standard configuration. Try a search on their forums for "Format Strings". Should be right at the top anyway. You can alter the way files are displayed. Dude going by the handle of UpNorth has a great set of strings. There are also second party plug-ins if you dig.

BEWARE: ID3V2 (MP3 only) tags will be removed if you do not watch how you configure foobar. Unless you want to go through a lot of headaches rebuilding tags that have been manicured by MC, consider how you have it set-up.

Yet another reason to push for MC having the ability to add apev2 tags to mp3's.

phelt · « **Reply #23 on:** July 01, 2003, 03:39:44 pm »

On topic: When I hear people talk about "Applcation X sounds better than Application Y" I wonder what speakers and other HW they are using to listen to their music, and what effects they may be using. Rocketsauce's suggestion for a blind test is a good one - make sure there's no way for the listener to detect which apps is being used, and use multiple songs. Also make sure that all apps are not using any DSP or effects, and have equivalent volume settings. Most people will think that louder = better.

On overpriced audio gear: It's funny to me that people spend so much on analog signal transmission. I'm waiting for speakers to go 802.11x wireless so the data stays digital right up until the cones or domes or ribbons

edit: heh, I just noticed that I repeated a lot of what Matt said. I'll choose to take pride in that

MachineHead · « **Reply #24 on:** July 01, 2003, 03:47:15 pm »

Quote

On overpriced audio gear: It's funny to me that people spend so much on analog signal transmission. I'm waiting for speakers to go 802.11x wireless so the data stays digital right up until the cones or domes or ribbons

That would be cool. You're right about the rest. Ever take the hood off some defunct audio component? Notice that the wires connecting to the speaker contacts are not OFC and 10 ga wire.

dmbfan36 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 01, 2003, 03:51:06 pm »

Quote

I've just realized that with JSS 5.1, it sounds a lot better. Without it, MC somehow seems to sound a little muffled? Anybody got this kinda experience with MC?

What's JSS 5.1?

gkerber · « **Reply #26 on:** July 01, 2003, 04:09:25 pm »

Quote

and have equivalent volume settings. Most people will think that louder = better.

That was one of our favorite tricks to lure customers into liking our highest profit speakers, make the ones we really really wanted to sell, just slightly louder. Works like a charm....

This was 20 years ago, I am not proud of that deception.

Matt · « **Reply #27 on:** July 01, 2003, 04:59:07 pm »

Quote

That was one of our favorite tricks to lure customers into liking our highest profit speakers, make the ones we really really wanted to sell, just slightly louder. Works like a charm....

This was 20 years ago, I am not proud of that deception.

That's the thing that drives me crazy about most DSP's. It's impossible to tell if it's a better sound because they always make everything tons louder while changing the sound. It gives that initial "wow" effect, but it's really just a trick.

So I'm convinced there's a niche for a "better-than-lossless" encoder. It'd really just be an mp3 encoder, but would play back a bunch louder than the original so everyone would pick it in A-B preference tests.

BigAl · « **Reply #28 on:** July 01, 2003, 09:04:13 pm »

Escaflo,

If MC's not messing with the bitstream then it's down to comparing DSP implementation and features, sound cards, speakers - too hard to compare.

The only DSP I use is replay gain. All my CDs are ripped with MC (Secure to APE-High). I use MC's ASIO interface with an M-Audio 2496 Audiophile card with coax digital to an Arcam Alpha10 amp and Krix speakers. I cannot fault the sound quality and it is as good or better that direct CD (Harmon Kardon) to my ears.

What part of Oz are your from - I'm from the Mexican quarter down south (Melbourne).

Al.

escaflo · « **Reply #29 on:** July 01, 2003, 09:51:11 pm »

I am from perth.. *yawn*..

I do agree with what Matt says. Most other player seems to be louder but not much better in terms of details of the song.

Just wondering, do most of you on your dsp when using MC? And if you do, what settings do you on it with?

gkerber · « **Reply #30 on:** July 01, 2003, 10:22:34 pm »

Quote

Just wondering, do most of you on your dsp when using MC? And if you do, what settings do you on it with?

I use NO DSP at all. Nothing. Everything is off and gapless.

I may try ReplyGain, but only for parties and background listening.

zevele10 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 02, 2003, 12:07:03 am »

As i said ,i set equaliser to 'Classic' when playing mp3 at very loud level.
The trebles sound less metallic.
But ,as a rule ,i do not use any DSP effect.

ReplayGain if i play Playlist ,but off if i play full albums

escaflo · « **Reply #32 on:** July 02, 2003, 12:22:48 am »

Also another question. What do you all use to output?

Wave? or DirectSound? or ASIO? and what is the benefits/differences between them?

I am sorry for all the questions but I am just curious.

kiwi · « **Reply #33 on:** July 02, 2003, 03:27:38 am »

Quote

MC is bit perfect when playing back audio. It doesn't get better than that.

That's the information that I wanted to hear.

My ideal audio equipement does NOTHING to the signal as it passes through, so for playback software, that means giving the soundcard the origninal bits (for lossless and the exact bits as decoded by a lossy decoder) directly to the sound card.

DSP stuff is fun to play with, however, chances are the album was put together and mixed on a much more refined system and adding a "hall effect" or "Extra Wide" does not improve the actual audio. (From the purist side.)

That said, much more sophisticated DSPs that can really do speaker or room correction are exclided from my generalization above. (I'd really like to see/create a plug-in for MC that could perform this.)

Quote

Thanks everyone.

Thanks Matt, MC is awesome! Sure it has some quirks, but what doesn't? And who doesn't? I've got my fair share and this software has far fewer than I do. For me, I am in the process of creating a HiFi PC and MC is going to be the way that I go.

Quote

On overpriced audio gear: It's funny to me that people spend so much on analog signal transmission. I'm waiting for speakers to go 802.11x wireless so the data stays digital right up until the cones or domes or ribbons

Meridian Speakers do digital right out to the speaker.
http://www.meridian-audio.com/p_d33.htm
{just one of their many DSP speaker line}

Sure, it's not wireless, but it's still digital.

kiwi

kiwi · « **Reply #34 on:** July 02, 2003, 03:30:47 am »

Quote

I use NO DSP at all. Nothing. Everything is off and gapless.

I may try ReplyGain, but only for parties and background listening.

Does the cross fading only effect the music as it's cross fading and then go right back to the original bit stream? (assuming that no other DSPs are selected.)

kiwi

nameless · « **Reply #35 on:** July 02, 2003, 10:44:35 pm »

Quote

Just wondering, do most of you on your dsp when using MC? And if you do, what settings do you on it with?

I use Replay Gain, for obvious reasons. I can't stand having to constantly adjust the volume level.

I also like to use the equalizer to add a bit extra bass and treble. To me, this makes the music sound better, and adds detail. Probably the only reason I need to do this is because I am careful with my ears, particularly with headphones, and I don't like to listen to music at too high a volume. Bumping the bass and treble is like enabling the "Loudness" function on a home stereo (which is designed with the same purpose in mind).

I don't use any other DSP toys.

modelmaker · « **Reply #36 on:** July 06, 2003, 03:43:28 pm »

As a former technical representative in the audio/video industry working for various manufacturers of high end equipment for 30 years, here's my 2 cents:

Corncerning speaker wire: first of the referrence to old "defucnt audio equipment" is erroneous as the length of the wire runs are generally less that 6 or 7 inches inside a reciever/amplifier. The quality of sound transmitted thru speaker wire is a function of resistence and distance.
using the age old analogy of a water pipe - the bigger the pipe the more water can flow thru it; the same is true for electricity, the bigger the cable the less resistence. The longer the distance, the bigger the cable needs to be. The size of cable affects the level (voltage/amps/wattage) and the frequency response that gets to the speaker(s). A general rule of thumb: speaker runs of 6ft to 10ft use minimum 12 guage, 10 to 18ft minimum 10 guage cable. anthing over 18ft use 8 guage or double up the 10 gauge. The other major rule is to use the purest copper wire (99%). The result is a more consistent and wider frequency response at all volume levels. You can make your own test using a couple of double pole/double throw switches.

I 'll continue in new thread as this getting lengthy.

BTW: not ALL audio sales people are like car salesmen, some of us were/are interested in getting the customer the best they could afford. I do remember the M91
and while there was good profit for tha store, for it's time that cartridge was still a good buy.

Sorry about the lengthy post.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 06, 2003, 04:34:26 pm »

Quote

Makes me feel like quite a schmuck for always using lamp cord...

It's hard to get better wire for speakers than 18 Ga. copper.

The RCA plug-type wire CAN get awfully thin so I buy Radio Shack's "Better" quality. It IS thicker.

CVIII

Listening to: 'Bolero' from 'Classical' by 'Wolf Hoffman' on Media Center 9.1

KingSparta · « **Reply #38 on:** July 06, 2003, 04:43:22 pm »

Quote

It's hard to get better wire for speakers than 18 Ga. copper.

How about 1 Ga Gold With Dbl Copper Wire Shielding?

Can Power Speakers Around 1 Million Watts.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #39 on:** July 06, 2003, 04:52:53 pm »

Do you HAVE 1,000,000 watt speakers or amplifiers?

KingSparta · « **Reply #40 on:** July 06, 2003, 05:00:27 pm »

yes 5 of them in my room 6 feet by 4

The quality is fine...

The walls have fallen however

modelmaker · « **Reply #41 on:** July 07, 2003, 02:51:33 pm »

Quote

It's hard to get better wire for speakers than 18 Ga. copper.

double or triple up your 18 guage wire - it will decrease the overall resistence.

blackimp · « **Reply #42 on:** July 07, 2003, 03:55:45 pm »

STP MP3 Player has small memory footprint, surprisingly configurable and good sound. Got rid of QCD and use STP for listening to mp3 files, but use MC for everything else!

KingSparta · « **Reply #43 on:** July 07, 2003, 04:11:38 pm »

really I was thinking of the Speakers In North korea, they are about 20 feet tall you can hear them for miles and miles (maybe about 5-10 miles).

they play 24 hours a day

today I scanned about 70 pictures of north korea and uploaded them to the 1\506 webmaster

http://currahee.hispeed.com

gkerber · « **Reply #44 on:** July 07, 2003, 04:31:32 pm »

Quote

Yes it will lower resistence, simple Ohm's Law.

However the necessity depends on the length used.

Does anyone know the resistence of 18 and 16 guage wire per foot?

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 07, 2003, 04:58:25 pm »

(quote)<<<- theses are square brackets --- Insert text here --- theses are square brackets->>>(/quote)
You can combine more than one feature. Just put your text in between square-bracketed commands.

KingSparta · « **Reply #46 on:** July 07, 2003, 05:05:19 pm »

Quote

Does anyone know the resistence of 18 and 16 guage wire

http://www.condumex.com.mx/gif/gif_informacion/pdf/cablesautomotrices.PDF

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 07, 2003, 05:27:11 pm »

Quote

I was thinking of the Speakers In North korea, they are about 20 feet tall you can hear them for miles and miles (maybe about 5-10 miles).

I went to see Grand Funk in 1970. They had all of the usual hard rock speakers but they also had two, one on each side of the stage, that looked like boxcars. They were the largest speaker boxes I had ever seen. I wonder how they moved them.

And now I wonder what size wires they had feeding them.

zevele10 · « **Reply #48 on:** July 08, 2003, 08:23:41 am »

I saw Grand Funk in Paris Olympia.
Who was a medium venue.
Around 2000 + persons - if i'am not wrong

After 5 minutes , NO ONE stayed inside .
EVERYONE was in the lobby , and it was still VERY VERY loud

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Sound Quality Battle (Read 10099 times)

zevele10

dragyn

zevele10

gkerber

zevele10

nila

zevele10

MachineHead

phelt

MachineHead

gkerber

gkerber

zevele10

nameless

gkerber

zevele10