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[ssabripo]

hi guys,

I have JRiver Media Center 16 i got a few years ago and have been a happy customer.  I installed it on a Window 7 laptop, and used Wasapi to output from MC16 thru the proprietary USB lossless 192khz capable output (via a musiland USD-01 usb dongle, plus drivers) to my DAC.

All was working great.  Unfortunately, my laptop died and I'm trying to re-setup with my current macbook pro.

can you guys give me a hand with a couple of questions:

I'm gonna download the Mac version of JR MC that matches my license, but once I finish setting it up, how can I take advantage of lossless unsampled (bit for bit perfect) output?  ?

In the wiki, it says:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes
"On OS X MC uses Core Audio to access your audio device, which provides bit-perfect playback, and requires no configuration"
which confuses me because they also mention:
"Core Audio is capable of providing bit-perfect output up to 32-bitdepth, at low latency, with no resampling at any sample rate. It also includes optional capabilities like sample rate conversion, audio processing units, and other effects. JRiver does not use these features and implements its own high-quality DSP."
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Core_Audio

So I'm a bit confused (no pun intended).... 

What's your recommended method of setting the JR MC application in Mac, so I can go USB to my DAC without any losses or any USB 44/48khz ceiling limits like there was in windows?


thanks in advance

[blgentry]

I'm gonna download the Mac version of JR MC that matches my license, but once I finish setting it up, how can I take advantage of lossless unsampled (bit for bit perfect) output?  ?

Bit perfect means that there are no alterations to the original digital samples.  They are sent directly to the DAC with no processing or DSP.  "Upsampled" usually means that a lower rate (say 44.1kHz) is converted to a higher rate (like 192kHz).  This process changes every single sample.  It is not "bit perfect" in any way.

which confuses me because they also mention:
"Core Audio is capable of providing bit-perfect output up to 32-bitdepth, at low latency, with no resampling at any sample rate. It also includes optional capabilities like sample rate conversion, audio processing units, and other effects. JRiver does not use these features and implements its own high-quality DSP."

That means that Core Audio on the Mac has audio processing capabilities built in to the Operating System (Mac OSX).  What JRiver is saying is, they don't use the OSX audio processing at all.  They do their own (optionally using the DSP Studio) and then pass the resulting audio to the operating system where it is not altered any further.

If you want bit perfect output, disable all sections of DSP Studio.  Turn the volume in MC to 100%, or set Volume Mode to "disabled", which will bypass the volume control, keeping it at 100%.  Turn off any cross fade between tracks.  Turn off "do not play silence".

If you want to upsample, go into the Output Format in the DSP Studio and set your upsampling choices in the Sample Rate section.

Good luck.

Brian.

[ssabripo]

Bit perfect means that there are no alterations to the original digital samples.  They are sent directly to the DAC with no processing or DSP.  "Upsampled" usually means that a lower rate (say 44.1kHz) is converted to a higher rate (like 192kHz).  This process changes every single sample.  It is not "bit perfect" in any way.

right, thanks! 
that's what I thought I had setup in my windows setup:

MC -> disabled all DSP outputs, and set wasapi -> Musiland USB driver (bypasses windows default 44khz limit in usb, opens throughput for 192khz 24bit untouched) -> Musiland USB-DigiCoax converter -> DAC

That means that Core Audio on the Mac has audio processing capabilities built in to the Operating System (Mac OSX).  What JRiver is saying is, they don't use the OSX audio processing at all.  They do their own (optionally using the DSP Studio) and then pass the resulting audio to the operating system where it is not altered any further.

gotcha! 

If you want bit perfect output, disable all sections of DSP Studio.  Turn the volume in MC to 100%, or set Volume Mode to "disabled", which will bypass the volume control, keeping it at 100%.  Turn off any cross fade between tracks.  Turn off "do not play silence".
Brian.

awesome, thank you Brian!  I got that part within MC's software.

Just one more thing that still has me confused:

The sole reason I used the Musiland USB dongle was to overcome the windows USB limitations.... so are you saying that once I set the DSP stuff to "OFF" in MC (As i did with the windows version), I don't need to do anything in the Mac HW or the OS X? there are no 44khz constraints on the USB output of Macs?  ?

if that's the case, that's pretty awesome...i can remove one more piece of unnecessary HW from the chain

[blgentry]

Just one more thing that still has me confused:

The sole reason I used the Musiland USB dongle was to overcome the windows USB limitations.... so are you saying that once I set the DSP stuff to "OFF" in MC (As i did with the windows version), I don't need to do anything in the Mac HW or the OS X? there are no 44khz constraints on the USB output of Macs?  ?

if that's the case, that's pretty awesome...i can remove one more piece of unnecessary HW from the chain

My Mac plays 192kHz audio directly from the USB port to my DAC.  No hardware or software additions are necessary.  MC and OSX will take care of all of it.

I'm actually unaware of a 44.1 or 48kHz limitation under Windows.  With a WASAPI or ASIO driver you shouldn't need anything else to get 192kHz to your DAC under Windows.  But I don't run Windows, so what do I know? 

Good luck.

Brian.

[ssabripo]

My Mac plays 192kHz audio directly from the USB port to my DAC.  No hardware or software additions are necessary.  MC and OSX will take care of all of it.

beautiful!!
that's perfect!  great news, and now I can get rid of the Musiland 

I'm actually unaware of a 44.1 or 48kHz limitation under Windows.  With a WASAPI or ASIO driver you shouldn't need anything else to get 192kHz to your DAC under Windows.  But I don't run Windows, so what do I know? 

Good luck.

Brian.

yeah, unfortunately Windows USB drivers have a cap of 48khz (win 7) and 96khz (win 10) on USB, so you have to either use USB drivers from your DAC manufacturer or converter dongle to bypass this and utilize the full 196khz spectrum.

default output (unless you have a high rez sound card, not onboard or mobo outputs) will give you the following:


so you will need to change to the USB driver as this:

[Awesome Donkey]

Actually, if you're using Windows 10 Creators Update it has support for USB Audio Class 2.0 (finally, Windows was literally the only OS lacking that support until now), meaning it can do beyond 96 kHz sample rates without needing to install drivers first.

[ssabripo]

Actually, if you're using Windows 10 Creators Update it has support for USB Audio Class 2.0 (finally, Windows was literally the only OS lacking that support until now), meaning it can do beyond 96 kHz sample rates without needing to install drivers first.

oh nice!!!!! 

let me try

[ssabripo]

ps- so i tried the Audirvana free version on the Mac, and followed these instructions (just to see if all the hardware path was ok):

https://www.24bit96.com/usb-computer-audio-system/bitperfect-mac.html

and the USB connection to my PS audio (cullen 3 modified, like this one: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/psaudio6/cullen.html) sounded HORRIBLE...i kept trying different configurations, and after reading all nite, looks like the PS audio drivers for USB are complete sh!t

i found this:
http://www.psaudio.com/forum/need-help-ask-the-psa-expert/is-digital-link-iii-usb-input-limited-to-48khz/#p37345

Indeed the USB input only accepts 41KHz & 48KHz.
The SPDIF accepts anything (if I read it correctly) upto and including 192KHz, I tried
41 – 48 – 88.2 – 176.4 – 192 KHz – it stops at 352.8KHz, you get an error message.

So it looks like I'm still stuck with this idiotic Musiland dongle, or will have to upgrade/change my DAC 

[blgentry]

If your DAC only supports 44.1 and 48 on it's USB input then no "usb dongle" is going to change that.  How does the musiland hook up to your DAC?  USB?  Toslink?

If it's using TOSLINK, then I suppose it's just acting as a USB to Toslink converter, which is fine.  It's just a bit confusing because the Musiland Monitor 1 is advertised as a USB DAC.  I don't see any mention of it's use as a digital to digital converter.

If you wanted a different USB to coaxial or USB to toslink converter there are others available.  Schiit just announced a new one recently that seems like a great product.  On the other hand if I was going to drop ~$200 on a converter, I'd probably just buy one of Schiit's mid priced DACs instead like the Bifrost Multibit perhaps...

Good luck.

Brian.

[ssabripo]

If your DAC only supports 44.1 and 48 on it's USB input then no "usb dongle" is going to change that.  How does the musiland hook up to your DAC?  USB?  Toslink?

If it's using TOSLINK, then I suppose it's just acting as a USB to Toslink converter, which is fine.  It's just a bit confusing because the Musiland Monitor 1 is advertised as a USB DAC.  I don't see any mention of it's use as a digital to digital converter.

If you wanted a different USB to coaxial or USB to toslink converter there are others available.  Schiit just announced a new one recently that seems like a great product.  On the other hand if I was going to drop ~$200 on a converter, I'd probably just buy one of Schiit's mid priced DACs instead like the Bifrost Multibit perhaps...

Good luck.

Brian.

Correct, I've been using it only as a USB-digiCoax converter, and sending the digicoax to the DAC, which is ok (I've verified it's receiving 96 and 192).

The musiland 02 and newer actually engage an internal dad, but the 01 (which is the one I'm using) is only a converter