Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[PGibby]

Hi,

I'd like to see if this would be an available feature. My setup consists of an older 2 channel DAC being fed by my HTPC through toslink. This DAC is an older Sonic Frontiers that only does PCM up to 16/48 2ch. Because of this, I use JRSS downmixing and output PCM to it, and for anything higher than 48khz sampling, I bump it down to a max of 48khz.

Now to my request, I'd the option of being able to individually adjust channel volume (mainly CENTER). I'd like to be able to boost the center a few DB without doing anything else. I don't want to change the dynamics of anything else, just simply make the center channel a little louder all the time during movies.

I can use "night mode" in the DSP studio, and they help with the center channel, but it also seems to take out the dynamic range of everything else (and it feels like it compresses the bass a little).

Is this a feature that can be added?

Thanks!

[PGibby]

Bump

[RoderickGI]

Read through this thread: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,110776.0.html

It is slightly different to what you want to do, but it explains why you can't at the moment. Output Format including JRSS Downmixing happens first in DSP, so there is no Center channel anymore to boost.

What you can do is set JRSS Downmixing in DSP to 5.1 Channels, and then use the Parametric Equaliser "Mix Channels" functionality to build a poor man's version of JRSS Downmixing to mix down to Stereo, by Adding all channels to the Left and Right channels with appropriate dB adjustment, including boosting the Center if required. Actually though, if you Add the Center to the Left and to the Right, I think you will hear a suitable boost.

I assume as you wish to boost the Center that this is mainly for playback of Videos (TV/Movies) and you want to hear the dialogue better? I had the same issue, but as I can output 5.1 channels in Dolby Digital format via Toslink to my 5.1 channel Receiver directly, I don't have the stereo only issue. So I was just able to boost the Center, and in fact boosted it mainly in the frequency ranges for dialogue. I'm still playing with that.

If it is for video, you may wish to set up a specific "Video" Zone to use with this DSP setup, and one for "Audio" that just outputs normal stereo, for your stereo music files. Then set up Zoneswitch to automatically switch between these Zones.

[PGibby]

I think I've tried that before, but maybe I didn't do it correctly. I'll give it a try and report back.

Thanks! 

[PGibby]

Ok, for a chance to try it. No matter what combo I try, I egt an error starting a Blu-ray movie with the message:

"Playback could not be started using the format 48khz 24bit 6ch (or 4 or 7).  This format would work: 48khz 24bit 2ch"

It then gives the option to change it now, or go to dsp studio.

Any suggestions? This is what I ran into before in that other thread too.

[RoderickGI]

Post full images of your DSP "Output Format" and "Parametric Equalizer" pages.

[PGibby]

When i get back I'll do that.

Thanks for your help on this. The attention given in the forums is just one part that separates JRiver from other options. 

[mojave]

What you can do is set JRSS Downmixing in DSP to 5.1 Channels, and then use the Parametric Equaliser "Mix Channels" functionality to build a poor man's version of JRSS Downmixing to mix down to Stereo, by Adding all channels to the Left and Right channels with appropriate dB adjustment, including boosting the Center if required. Actually though, if you Add the Center to the Left and to the Right, I think you will hear a suitable boost.

If he has a two channel consumer DAC, which he does, he can't set output format to anything except 2 channels. JRiver currently doesn't have the option to do a final output of 2 channels with processing done at 5.1 or 7.1. The precludes users from being able to manually adjust the volume of the center channel using the DSP before routing the center to left and right.

He will always get this error if outputting more than two channels:  "Playback could not be started using the format 48khz 24bit 6ch (or 4 or 7).  This format would work: 48khz 24bit 2ch"

[RoderickGI]

Thanks for the clarification Mojave.

I was thinking if he mixed the channels down to 2 channels manually using the Parametric Equalizer "Mix Channels" functionality, then muted any remaining channels so there was content only on two channels, that MC may recognise this and not error.

So you're saying that because MC will still think it is a 5.1 container, that it will error regardless of the content being on just two channels?

The Toslink restrictions may have been a concern as well, but if the content was on the correct two channels I was hoping the DAC driver may cope with pulling out just two channels out of the five.


This request, being able to boost the Center Channel, seems to be coming up a lot lately. I have done it myself, but I'm outputting 5.1 in DD via a Toslink, so I can get away with it. This is quite a bit of a shortcoming with MC, in these circumstances.

[PGibby]

Correct, I can't send out any type of encoding other than PCM...we're talking mid 90's vintage. 

I got wrapped up in other projects last night, but this evening I'll be more free. I'll post up screenshots of what I've tried. If you need someone to test something, just let me know. More than willing to try and help.

[mojave]

So you're saying that because MC will still think it is a 5.1 container, that it will error regardless of the content being on just two channels?

Yes, once you set the container size, it stays at that size. It has been requested over the years that the input and output container sizes be different to allow one to do their own down mixing.

There are many times times that the center channel content also has some content in the left and right channels. Increasing the center channel volume reduces intelligibility in this case.

PGibby, you can also use the two channel track, if available. It can sound better than down mixing the multi-channel track.

[mwillems]

I've often wished for this.  In fact, I just checked, and the second thread I ever started on this forum way back in 2013 was a request to be able to boost the center channel volume in the JRSS downmix:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,77226.msg523366.html

 

[RoderickGI]

Exactly the same issue! It looks like "Medium Adaptive Volume" became "Night Mode".

I tested this for a bit of self-education on my HTPC by creating a new Zone with Dolby Digital turned off in Output Format, and used Mix Channels to downmix. Sure enough, I reproduced the error. Bummer.


So how about another solution PGibby?

Use your venerable 2 channel DAC for high-quality music listening, in its own Audio Zone. Then use a new Video Zone with output directed at something that can handle 5.1 (or 7.1) channels, such as the built in sound card on your PC motherboard. Then set up Zoneswitch to switch to the appropriate Zone based on the content being played. You could then boost the Center volume on Videos to better hear dialogue in movies, while still enjoying the best sound quality when listening to stereo audio sources.

Would that be possible? Is your DAC connected to an amplifier that could handle 6 channel analogue input, and does your PC have 6 channel analogue outputs, for example?

I know my motherboard sound card has both Toslink and Analogue output capabilities, although I'm not sure if I can have both connected at once and switch between them. The audio chip and driver may not allow that. But if it did I could output all stereo Audio (music) via the Toslink in 2 channel PCM, and all 5.1 channel Video via the analogue outputs, into the analogue inputs on my 1990's Receiver.

Perhaps worth thinking about.

[PGibby]

I don't have a soundcard (no space for it in my htpc), and honestly, I'd never use it. My whole system is purely 2 channel:

Audio Research VS-55 amp, LS2 preamp, the old school Sonic Frontiers dac, Meadowlark Nighthawk speakers paired with a diy Rythmik 15".

I'd need to overhaul everything...and that's not happening...I'm a 2ch guy (especially in my available space).

I joke I have a kickass stereo from 1995. Hahaha

Since we established that currently trying to do what I'd like is not possible at the moment, still want some screenshots?

Is it possible to implement a center channel boost slider that works with Jrss downmix? Or, maybe add an additional "Night Mode Light" that doesn't do anything (no dynamic compression or frequency tweeking), other than boost center channel by a couple db for us lowly 2ch guys?

[RoderickGI]

Nice gear, for 1995! 

It was worth asking, if only for future readers who may have the same problem.

Since we established that currently trying to do what I'd like is not possible at the moment, still want some screenshots?

No, I think we are past that stage now. We know what you want isn't possible.


One other thought then. You haven't said, but if the main issue you have is hearing dialogue in movies, you could use the Parametric Equaliser to boost the frequencies of human speech. I have played around with that a bit, with some improvement, but not as much as boosting the Center channel.

Maybe someone who knows more about human speech and hearing can advise on what frequencies to boost and how. I'm a novice in that area. I just boosted 1KHz and 60Hz from memory, about 10dB I think. If no-one speaks up, Google and lots of trying things is the way to go.


If it isn't just dialogue that is the issue, or the above doesn't help, then you have just added your voice to everyone else who wants to be able to adjust channels before JRSS is applied.

[PGibby]

I have played around with that little..boosting 90hz to 250hz or so to try and cover the range, and like you said..it kind of worked. It tended to make some of the music and other effects louder too....it sounded "shouty" I guess is the best I can describe it.

From the other thread related to this, it appears night mode boost the center by 3db (but also has some dynamic compression and some eq being done). Is it possible to add another adaptive sound mode that ONLY boosts the center, but does nothing else?
 

[blgentry]

If he has a two channel consumer DAC, which he does, he can't set output format to anything except 2 channels. JRiver currently doesn't have the option to do a final output of 2 channels with processing done at 5.1 or 7.1. The precludes users from being able to manually adjust the volume of the center channel using the DSP before routing the center to left and right.

I just tested this and I was certain you were wrong... for about 60 seconds!  You are correct of course.  It's interesting... the Mac version will allow you to set 5.1 as the output format with no JRSS mixing... and it works!  But then it stops working.  When you check output format again, it has changed itself back to 2 channels with JRSS mixing enabled.

I'm not sure if there is a technical limitation that prevents one from being able to set a 5.1 channel container with a 2 channel device, or if it's just a matter of making it way too easy for someone to screw up. 

I *do* know that I see these kinds of questions frequently:  "How do I boost my center channel?".  ...and the very long answer seems to always be, "you can't because of output format". 

Would someone from JRiver correct me on this, or perhaps comment on the situation and why it is like it is? 

From a consumer perspective, it would absolutely be nice to be able to change the mix in a down mix or upmix situation.

Thanks,

Brian.

[PGibby]

I just tested this and I was certain you were wrong... for about 60 seconds!  You are correct of course.  It's interesting... the Mac version will allow you to set 5.1 as the output format with no JRSS mixing... and it works!  But then it stops working.  When you check output format again, it has changed itself back to 2 channels with JRSS mixing enabled.

I'm not sure if there is a technical limitation that prevents one from being able to set a 5.1 channel container with a 2 channel device, or if it's just a matter of making it way too easy for someone to screw up. 

I *do* know that I see these kinds of questions frequently:  "How do I boost my center channel?".  ...and the very long answer seems to always be, "you can't because of output format". 

Would someone from JRiver correct me on this, or perhaps comment on the situation and why it is like it is? 

From a consumer perspective, it would absolutely be nice to be able to change the mix in a down mix or upmix situation.

Thanks,

Brian.

I completely agree. I'd be ok with one that's non-adjustable...one that just helps the 2ch guys out without any compression or EQ.

Again...the interaction with JRiver folks via the forum is fantastic. Thanks again!

[Fangio]

+1 for this request. My system is also solely 2 channel.

[PGibby]

OK cool...someone else in the same boat.

So, the question then is...is there a technical constraint that doesn't allow the adjustment?

[tyler69]

yeah, you're probably not alone in that boat: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,110776.msg767226.html#msg767226

[PGibby]

Looks like I participated in that thread too...forgot about that one!

[PGibby]

Bump.

Any chance a boost center option can be added without any other dynamic compression or EQ?

[tyler69]

Bump.

[PGibby]

Good bump. Still interested as well! 

[Fangio]

Bump.

[Mans]

+1.
Owning a dedicated 2ch stereo setup aswell (actually 2.2 if you would could my external X-over with 2 active 'stereo' subs).
So MC does a lot of downmixing at our place.

Requesting a variable level prior downmixing or even a 'boost Centerinfo into downmix' tickbox into the DSP config tab.

Adding some level of the Center information into the downmix would avoid:
1/ raising the amplifiers volume during dialogues.
2/ lowering it immediately after when other information comes to the foreground.

Thanks for making such happen.

[PGibby]

I like how this one gets bumped randomly.

I'd still love to have this feature.