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[derf]

Hi,

When using JRiver with MiniServer DLNA library, tags are not OK at all : albumartist tag is missing (just artist tag is served), composer is missing, rating is missing, DR info is missing, lyrics is missing, comment is missing, …

I tag my files with JRiver main library (including audio analysis and ratings)

When I use JRiver main library with JRemote, everything works fine (as for tags concerns)

When I use MiniServer alone (with an other upnp control point), everything works fine (as for tags concerns)

JRemote being my favorite control point and MinimServer being my favorite media server, I wish they could better interact (setup : JRiver 22 on macmini connected to MiniServer DLNA library, actually on the same machine but library will move on a dedicated nas compatible with MinimServer)

The use of MinimServer tagCustom "AlbumArtist.displayRole={artist}" works for albumartist tag (but the artist tag info is then missing), and "Composer.displayRole={author}" works for composer tag

I tried to use other tagCustom properties in MiniServer, and/or to use "Manage fields library" in JRiver ; but I didn’t succeed

Any advice how to map tags correctly ?

When looking at the logs in MinimServer, the following tags are listed (all the tags are indexed incl. rating and DR info) :

ALBUM (e.g. Vivaldi: Concerti per violoncello I)
ALBUMARTIST (e.g. Collection Vivaldi Edition)
ARTIST (e.g. Christophe Coin, cello - Giovanni Antonini, conductor)
BPM (e.g. 94)
COMMENT (e.g. 1 of 2 albums)
COMPOSER (e.g. Vivaldi, Antonio)
COMPOSITION (e.g. Concerto in F major, RV 410)
CONTENTGROUP (e.g. Concerto)
COPYRIGHT (e.g. Naïve)
DATE (e.g. 2007-03-06)
DESCRIPTION
DISCNUMBER               
DISCTOTAL               
DYNAMIC RANGE (DR) (e.g. 14)
DYNAMIC RANGE (R128) (e.g. 9.6074695587158203)
ENCODEDBY (e.g. X Lossless Decoder 20121222, QuickTime 7.7.1)
GENRE (e.g. Classical)
INSTRUMENT (e.g. Strings>Cello)
LABEL (e.g. Naïve)
LYRICS (e.g. Instrumental)
ORCHESTRA (e.g. Il Giardino Armonico)
PEAK LEVEL (R128) (e.g. -1.7 dBTP; -1.9 Left; -1.7 Right)
PEAK LEVEL (SAMPLE) (e.g. -1.7 dB; -2.0 Left; -1.7 Right)
PERIOD (e.g. Baroque)
RATING (e.g. 1)
REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN   (e.g. 1.59)
REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK (e.g. 0.822)
SOLOIST (e.g. Christophe Coin)
TITLE (e.g. Concerto in F major, RV 410 - 3. (Allegro))
TOOL NAME (e.g. Media Center)
TOTALDISCS
TOTALTRACKS
TRACKNUMBER            
TRACKTOTAL               
VOLUME LEVEL (R128) (e.g. -3.4073600769042969)
VOLUME LEVEL (REPLAYGAIN) (e.g. 1.5926400423049927)

[derf]

Any hint ? 

[blgentry]

Why is minimserver being used?  JRiver MC is a DLNA server, renderer, etc.  Is there something minimserver does that MC doesn't?

Brian.

[AndyU]

Is there something minimserver does that MC doesn't?

Brian.

Yes, very much so, especially if you enjoy classical music. It has a feature which it calls "intelligent browsing", which doesn't force any particular browsing order on the user. For example, you may have an "Albums" type view, which will be presented as albums as usual, but plus containers for (say) Composer, Artist, Orchestra, Sub Genre. You can click through any of the higher level containers - Composer say  and get a list of composers. Pick one of these, and the list of albums is restricted to just those for that composer. Then click on Artist or whatever, pick an artist and get the Albums or Works for just that artist. It gives you the freedom to make restrictions in any order you like, rather like panes view, but through a more graphical interface on a remote app. It's a very good feature, and I would like MC/JRemote more if there was a similar feature.

see here: http://minimserver.com/features.html#Intelligent

ps but I guess the reason JRemote doesn't work very well with minimserver is that it is only intended to work with MC - the fact that it even half works with minimserver is just luck.

[klapaciuss]

No reply for original question from JRiver developers?

 Problem with tags with third party DLNA servers (e.g. MinimServer) persists.

[aoqw76]

I think you'll find that jriver is a remote control app for jriver media center, not for "a.n.other" dlna software such as asset or minimserver or anything else. Media Center itself can support a dlna client as it can run a dlna server, but that doesnt mean jremote supports another software running a dlna server.
Hence - and it's for the developers to confirm - your question is somewhat irrelevant. JRemote is designed to work with a media center (as in jriver mc software) server.

[klapaciuss]

I think you'll find that jriver is a remote control app for jriver media center, not for "a.n.other" dlna software such as asset or minimserver or anything else. Media Center itself can support a dlna client as it can run a dlna server, but that doesnt mean jremote supports another software running a dlna server.
Hence - and it's for the developers to confirm - your question is somewhat irrelevant. JRemote is designed to work with a media center (as in jriver mc software) server.

Own JRiver advertisement: "Media Center will work with thousands of TV's, Blu-ray players, receivers, and other devices which support the DLNA protocol. You can also use a PS3 or an Xbox 360. Support for External Interfaces. These interfaces allow external devices to interact with Media Center as a Remote Control, Player, or Server."

There is not mentioned that JRiver DLNA is not suitable for other DLNA device than JRiver MC. MinimServer is widely used Media Server. JRiver should have support it. It would be sufficient to follow DLNA standards on JRiver side. DLNA support in JRiver is very outdated.

[JimH]

I don't think you know what you're talking about.  Sorry.

JRiver has one of the best DLNA implementations available.

[klapaciuss]

I don't think you know what you're talking about.  Sorry.

JRiver has one of the best DLNA implementations available.

JRiver is unable to work with essential tag Album Artist from another DLNA Media Server (e.g. MinimServer). JRiver is importing the Artist value from <upnp:artist> and is treating <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist"> as if it were <upnp:artist> (i.e., it is ignoring the 'role' attribute). This is a bug in JRiver. It is interesting that for tag author role attribute works OK- <upnp:author role="Composer"> works without problem. It is inconsistence.

There is number other DLNA tags which are ignored by JRiver over DLNA.

[JimH]

You're making bold statements based on what you've heard.  Let's wait a little to see what the truth really is.

[aoqw76]

@klapaciuss - dont mix up "jriver" (the company name), "jriver mc" (the "media center" software application), and "jremote" the remote control app.
"JRemote" - the thing you are complaining about not working - is remote control software for "media center", and for media center only. It is not remote control software designed to work with any other dlna-capable software such as minimserver.

[AndrewFG]

AFAIK the OP is not talking about JRemote. And it is possible (I did not test it) that his point about MCs importing of tags from a 3rd party DMS may be true.

The UPNP specification defines XML names for meta data fields to be passed in ContentDirectory:Browse or ContentDirectory:Search responses. Some of these meta data field names are derived from a so called "Dublin Core" namespace (such as the AlbumArtist name cited by the OP), and when MC passes meta data to other CPs or to other instances of itself it does also use the UPNP / Dublin Core namespace. However due to limitations of the UPNP / Dublin Core namespace MC has to extend the namespace with some of its own proprietary field names. AlbumArtist is I think one such field where MC has to use a proprietary namespace extension. I am not sure quite why, but it would probably be something related to the "Various Artists" grouping conundrum.

Theoretically JRiver could possibly fix this. But they may not see it as a top priority. It would certainly be easier to change your server from minimserver to another instance of MC. And one would obviously get a far better integration MC to MC than from another DMS to MC.

The OPs comments about minim server browse trees for classical music are IMHO already covered by the powerful browsing views of MC. Probably much better than minim could ever do.

[klapaciuss]

"JRemote" - the thing you are complaining about not working - is remote control

I don't use JRemote. I am complaining about compatibility JRiver MC with the third party Media Servers (e.g. MinimServer). My setup is: MinimServer as Media Server (on Synology NAS), Android BubbleUPnP as control point (very good software with minimum compatibility issues), JRiver MC as audio renderer and DSP point.

You're making bold statements based on what you've heard.  Let's wait a little to see what the truth really is.

I use WireShark for catching network packets. I compared DLNA communication between number Media Servers a Renderers. MinimServer developer also confirmed above mentioned MC problem with (for example) Album Artist field and ROLE keyword.

And it is possible (I did not test it) that his point about MCs importing of tags from a 3rd party DMS may be true...... Theoretically MC could possibly fix this. But they may not see it as a top priority.

Thank you AndrewFG for the first comment to the point. JRiver MC is extraordinary tool in area of audio processing which is resulting in superior sound quality with  DRC support and so on. But in DLNA area MC suffers from low level of compatibility with the third party DLNA Media Servers.

Is it possible to publish complete list of tags supported by MC over DLNA including supported communication syntax? There is on MinimServer side support for tweaking DLNA communication in case of compatibility problems. Thank you in advance.

[JimH]

... But in DLNA area MC suffers from low level of compatibility with the third party DLNA Media Servers.

Again, you are making absolute statements about JRiver's DLNA compatibility and they are just not true.  We get along well with most other DLNA software, including a lot of not so well behaved consumer electronics software.  When we find problems, we fix them.  In this case, it's not clear there is a problem.  You're relying on the developer's report.  Maybe he's right ...  It's not certain at all.

[klapaciuss]

I have experience with following Media Servers:
1) Synology native Media Station - with MC a lot of problems.
2) MinimServer - with MC works but there is number of problems with tags
3) BubbleUPnP as media server - with MC works but there is number of problems with tags

There is also problem with gapless playback with the third party media servers (in connection with MC renderer over DLNA). Gapless works OK with standard resolution audio tracks but failed with hires audio tracks.

[bob]

JRiver is unable to work with essential tag Album Artist from another DLNA Media Server (e.g. MinimServer). JRiver is importing the Artist value from <upnp:artist> and is treating <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist"> as if it were <upnp:artist> (i.e., it is ignoring the 'role' attribute). This is a bug in JRiver. It is interesting that for tag author role attribute works OK- <upnp:author role="Composer"> works without problem. It is inconsistence.

There is number other DLNA tags which are ignored by JRiver over DLNA.

As Andrew pointed out, UPNP / Dublin Core namespace use has a bunch of limitations when dealing with audio tags. Many servers use their own namespaces to deal with that. Twonky started this as far as I can tell and it's full of them. It's also used as the DLNA server on several NAS implementations.
We try to keep the use of non-spec supported items to a minimum. The only ones we use our own namespace for are R128 volume and Peak Level.

The only role field attribute used when parsing the DIDL is for AlbumArtist. The composer is set from the author without the role attribute.
There is some mapping in the DIDL parsing that is a result of trying to support broken DLNA servers.
Ones that in particular use their own upnp: tags unsupported by the spec.
AlbumArtist is one of these (we also grab a few twonky namespace properties).
There is no upnp:AlbumArtist in the spec but that doesn't stop some servers from using it.

The logic in MC is to use the unsupported <upnp:albumartist> property if it exists.
If not it uses the <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist"> property.
The key piece follows. If the artist and album artist are the same we clear the album artist field. The reasoning behind this is that the derived information is provided in MC by Album Artist (auto).  I seem to recall it was done to deal with another issue when supplying that data to a renderer when we were the controller. I'm not sure I agree with that logic. Andrew, any comments?

[digimuse]

I just ran into the same problem.

The logic in MC is to use the unsupported <upnp:albumartist> property if it exists.
If not it uses the <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist"> property.

While this may be true, I found that if MinimServer is configured to send "AlbumArtist" as <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist">, then MC also treats this as as <upnp:artist>.

So with MC Playing from MinimServer, if for example you have a compilation album with "Album Artist" tag set to "Various", then:

• if you configure MinimServer to send <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist"> then the compilation album in MC has "AlbumArtist" and "Artist" both set to "Various" for every track of the compilation album
  
  
• if you configure MinimServer not to send <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist">, then the compilation album in MC has "AlbumArtist" and "Artist" both set to the track artist. This can result is a separate album in MC for every track of the compilation album
  

It may be possible to change MC to not use <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist"> for "Artist" (but continue to use it for "AlbumArtist")

[I am running into this problem when using the Melco music server with MC. Melco comes with Twonky, which unfortunately did to recognize my .dsf files. It is possible to install MinimServer on the Melco box, which recognizes .dsf files. Sadly there is no MC for the Melco box.

I prefer the sound of the Ethernet connection between the Melco box and my DAC, vs a USB connection. This means that the Melco box must be the Server, the DAC the Renderer, and MC the Control Point  (with a USB connection, the Melco box can be a Renderer with MC being the Server and Control Point).

I also prefer the sound of the Melco box connected to my DAC via Ethernet, vs the JRiver Id connected to my DAC via Ethernet or USB.]

[bob]

I just ran into the same problem.

While this may be true, I found that if MinimServer is configured to send "AlbumArtist" as <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist">, then MC also treats this as as <upnp:artist>.

So with MC Playing from MinimServer, if for example you have a compilation album with "Album Artist" tag set to "Various", then:

• if you configure MinimServer to send <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist"> then the compilation album in MC has "AlbumArtist" and "Artist" both set to "Various" for every track of the compilation album
  
  
• if you configure MinimServer not to send <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist">, then the compilation album in MC has "AlbumArtist" and "Artist" both set to the track artist. This can result is a separate album in MC for every track of the compilation album
  

It may be possible to change MC to not use <upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist"> for "Artist" (but continue to use it for "AlbumArtist")

[I am running into this problem when using the Melco music server with MC. Melco comes with Twonky, which unfortunately did to recognize my .dsf files. It is possible to install MinimServer on the Melco box, which recognizes .dsf files. Sadly there is no MC for the Melco box.

I prefer the sound of the Ethernet connection between the Melco box and my DAC, vs a USB connection. This means that the Melco box must be the Server, the DAC the Renderer, and MC the Control Point  (with a USB connection, the Melco box can be a Renderer with MC being the Server and Control Point).

I also prefer the sound of the Melco box connected to my DAC via Ethernet, vs the JRiver Id connected to my DAC via Ethernet or USB.]

After installing a minimserver to test this, it seems that the issue here is that the minimserver is providing the albumartist before the artist field in the xml and MC isn't expecting that. It's accounted for in the next build and works as expected now.

[digimuse]

Wow! This is amazing. Thank you for the quick fix. Looking forward to trying out the new build with the fix.

[digimuse]

I can confirm that my problem is solved with JRiver Media Center 23.0.79 (Mac) as the Control Point and MinimServer 0.84 update 104 as the Server. All tracks of a compilation album in MinimServer show up as one album in MC. Also, the tags "Artist" and "Album Artist" in MC are the same as those in the music files served by MinimServer.

It is great that I can now use a single Control Point (MC or JRemote) to control my Id boxes and the Melco music server (previously I had to use a different Control Point for MinimServer running on the Melco music server).