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Author Topic: Upsampling WAV to DSD?  (Read 8609 times)

Rossputin

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Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« on: January 16, 2018, 06:18:49 pm »

Hello experts!

Can you please tell me what the pros and cons are of software conversion of WAV to DSD?

Are the files likely to sound different, and if so, why, and could that process actually make audio sound worse?

(I suppose the question might apply to FLAC or other audio file types as well.)

Thanks!
Ross
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dtc

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 09:37:50 am »

There are two different issues here. WAV and FLAC are just 2 different ways to store the exact same information. There are simply 2 different containers for PCM data. FLAC is compressed for storage and then decompressed back to the original data for playback.

DSD is very different than PCM. PCM samples at sample rates like 44.1 KHz or  96 KHz and stores 16 or 24 bits of data for each sample.  DSD, on the other hand, samples at a much higher sample rate - 2.8 MHz or 5.6 MHz are the most common. But it only uses 1 bit, which basically just records whether the signal went up or down. 

Converting PCM and DSD back to analogue use very different methods and filters.  Unlike moving from WAV to FLAC, which is a lossless process, converting between PCM and DSD is a lossy process. If you convert PCM to DSD to PCM you do not get exactly the same data as you started with.

As to sound, there is no one answer. Some people prefer PCM, some prefer DSD and some say they cannot tell any difference. There are several variables here, including the equipment used and the listeners hearing. Since different DAC manufacturers use slightly different methods and filters, it is hard to make any real generalizations.

There are all sorts of theoretical arguments that try to prove that one sounds better than the other. But the only way to determine which sounds better is to try it yourself and see what you prefer.

One thing to be careful of is comparing two different releases of an album, on in PCM and one in DSD. It is quite possible that they were mastered differently, which can make more difference in how they sound that the format does.  The same applies to hi-rez PCM releases. They may sound better than the original CD, but that may be due to remastering rather than just higher sample rates.  Of course, this is not an issue if you are doing the conversions yourself. 

Tthere are also different algorithms for converting PCM to DSD. So conversions using different software have the potential for sounding different.
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verybest

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 11:52:40 am »

Hello MC Beta Team Citizen of the Universe
 - very good summary ensures clarity - 
thanks!
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Rossputin

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 12:29:23 pm »

Thanks for the fantastic answer. Could I ask one more basic/newbie question? Can you please help me understand what PCM means and what various formats it contains? Or does it contain pretty much everything that isn't DSD?  Thanks again for taking the time to help me (and others) understand this stuff.
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 12:33:19 pm »

PCM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-code_modulation

DSD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital

Or does it contain pretty much everything that isn't DSD?

Pretty much. PCM is the standard for digital audio (e.g. CDs, all computer sounds, digital downloads, etc. that's not DSD).
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dtc

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 01:34:18 pm »

OK, may be more than you want to know, but here goes.

To represent music in a digital format, you take the analog wave form  (see the picture in the PCM link to Wikipedia) and sample it at enough points to faithfully represent the music. If you take too full samples you do not faithfully represent the music. If you take too many samples you can faithfully reproduce the music but you use a lot of extra disk space and the processing of the data can become difficult, even for a powerful computer.

There is a theorem in information theory (Shannon - Nyquist Theorem) that says if you sample at twice the highest frequency in an analog signal, you can exactly reproduce the sounds up to that frequency. Since the limit of human hearing is often set at 20 KHz, then taking samples of the waveform at 40 KHz will reproduce everything below 20 KHz. The CD sample rate was originally set at 44.1 KHz because there were electronic parts available that worked at 44.1 KHz and that would reproduce music up to 20 KHz.  That means taking 44,100 samples every second, which is a lot of data.

Each sample represents the height of the waveform. For CDs each sample was measured using 16 bits, which gives a number between −32,768  through 32,767.  That gives a very accurate value for the waveform at each sample point.

One problem with sampling at 44.1 KHz, is that when you turn it back into analog, you get lots of "noise" above 22 KHz.   The noise was not present in the original waveform, so you want to filter it out. Unfortunately, the filter that does that can introduce noise below 20 KHz, which means that the process has not done a exact job of reproducing the original waveform.

One way to overcome the 22 KHz filter problems is to sample at a higher rate, like  88.2 KHz or 96 KHz or 192 KHz. This was the reasoning behind hi-rez audio, which was introduced commercially in 2000 as DVD- Audio or DVD-A.  Both CDs and DVD-A use PCM for the data.


An alternate hi-rez format (SACD) was develop at about the same time by Sony and Philips. It used a much higher sample rate (2.8 KHz) but only 1 bit of data - up or down. This is the DSD format. 2.8KHz is 64 times 44.1 KHz so this form is sometimes called DSD64.  In terms of data, there is 4 times the amount of data as a CD (64/16), so it should be able to reproduce the original waveform more accurately than a CD can. It is comparable to the amount of data in a DVD-A.

There are some issues with DSD. Because the data is only 0 or 1, there is high frequency noise produced when the data is turned back into analog. So, Sony and Philips put in filters at 50 KHz to remove that noise. 

But, the bigger problem is that it is very hard to manipulate DSD data. It takes a huge amount of compute power to make changes to the DSD data, so the traditional editing that a sound engineer does is basically impossible to do. So, the editing is actually done by converting to PCM and then converting that back to DSD. Some producers are now doing their editing only in the analog mode, so that there is no PCM involved but that is a laborious process.

The engineers at Sony and Philips thought the DSD format sounded better than hi-rez PCM, so they used it for their SACDs.

PCM has remained the dominate format since it is easy to generate, easy to edit and easy to transmit. Some diehards hold on to DSD since they think it sounds better.  After an initial flurry of activity a few years ago, DSD has still remained a very secondary format used only by a small part of the high end market. But some people swear by it.

The Wikipedia articles have more detail, but that is an overview.



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Rossputin

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 02:10:47 pm »

Fascinating. I was wondering why DSD doesn't seem to have taken off as a dominant format. I was thinking that it was analogous to being the DVD as compared to CD, but it almost seems it's more like Beta compared to VHS.

I realize this is very much a "Coke vs Pepsi" sort of question, namely about personal taste, but what's your best guess as to what the most common answer among experts would be to the question: Which format is the best overall for "civilian" music listeners? (i.e. those of us who don't need to edit the files and who care a little, but only a little about file size because of how much storage prices have dropped, and who have whatever you'd call a decent consumer grade of computer, but not massive processing power like some [crazy] gamers have?)

My guess is WAV or FLAC...but again I know very little, and I'm really grateful for this very interesting education!
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 02:46:40 pm »

Fascinating. I was wondering why DSD doesn't seem to have taken off as a dominant format.

Well, the issue with manipulating DSD data probably has a lot to do with it. That and the majority of albums recorded in the last 25 or so years are recorded digitally. If you're recording in analog (which is kinda rare these days and more expensive than recording digital), it could work either way.


Which format is the best overall for "civilian" music listeners? (i.e. those of us who don't need to edit the files and who care a little, but only a little about file size because of how much storage prices have dropped, and who have whatever you'd call a decent consumer grade of computer, but not massive processing power like some [crazy] gamers have?)

In my opinion, any PCM format whether it be FLAC, APE, WAV, etc. - whichever you want, the end result is pretty much the same. Plus keep in mind the selection of music available out there is overwhelming available as PCM versus albums available in DSD/SACD form.

DSD is nice if you have a DAC that supports native DSD playback of SACD ISOs, DFF and DSF files you own and/or a SACD-capable player with the physical SACD discs (or even DSD files like DFF and DSF).
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dtc

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 02:58:44 pm »


My guess is WAV or FLAC...but again I know very little, and I'm really grateful for this very interesting education!

FLAC is much better for tagging than WAV. You can tag WAV files, but there is no real standard.  FLAC is the overwhelming choice because it takes less space than WAV and supports tagging in a standard way.

There are some who criticize FLAC because it takes a little bit of CPU time to decompress it and they say that can affect the sound. The vast majority of people do not hear any difference of WAV versus FLAC, but thought I would point it out.

For Apple users,  ALAC is analogous to FLAC.
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Matt

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Re: Upsampling WAV to DSD?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2018, 03:01:54 pm »

There are some who criticize FLAC because it takes a little bit of CPU time to decompress it and they say that can affect the sound. The vast majority of people do not hear any difference of WAV versus FLAC, but thought I would point it out.

We made the memory playback feature just for those people!  After a split second, playing an APE, FLAC, or WAV will all have the identical information loaded into memory.  There's no overhead while playback occurs.
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