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[Vocalpoint]

All,

As part of this thread:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,117314.0.html

I had discussed how slow search had become and in my case - I had thought it might have something to do with thumbnails. So I set to rebuilding them from scratch. This annoying process took the better part of a couple days to complete - but I finally got my thumbs to 100%. I even checked into the former thread yesterday to report back my search experience after the thumbnail rebuild.

After that last report yesterday - I tried some different tests to see if search was slow on this specific library vs creating a brand new one. And to my surprise it was. Then this morning - I fired up MC (to my local library) and then added a new library connection to our Media Server install (as a client) and was surprised to see how fast search was in this "client/server" mode.

But just moments ago after completing that test - I used Library Manager to switch away from the server library and back to my local library (The one that exhibited slow search at the start of the former thread) and noticed that the thumbnails were blank and then quickly started to fill in on several views. So I went to Reporter - and was very annoyed to see that this local library now lost 50% of it's thumbnails (See MCReporterThumbs)

And sure enough - if I go over to Options->Tree & View->Thumbnails and select Build Missing Thumbnails - MC shows clearly that half of the thumbs are missing (See MCBuildThumbs) and starts to rebuild them.

What is going on? Why did I lose 50% of the thumbnails? Are these thumbnails not cached after taking three days to generate them?

Very frustrated on this..

VP

[swiv3d]

Just switched to a different library, did some work, switched back to my NAS library tried build missing thumbnails - they are all still there so it completed in 0.00 seconds. I think this points to a problem with the way MC is set up on your Win Server 2016.

[Vocalpoint]

Just switched to a different library, did some work, switched back to my NAS library tried build missing thumbnails - they are all still there so it completed in 0.00 seconds. I think this points to a problem with the way MC is set up on your Win Server 2016.

To be clear- this is local library on my local machine that has been working fine for at least 5 versions of MC.

Yes - the music files it points to are on the server - but the library, thumbnail cache and everything else is local. Do not understand how the music location has anything to do with a thumbnail cache that was perfectly fine just a day ago.

And yes - today - after discovering this issue - when I switch around to different libraries - the 54% of thumbnails I do have in this library - are still there. But this was a 100% yesterday...
 
VP

[swiv3d]

Then you probably have a problem with your MC24 permissions on your local machine. What is the OS of the machine?

"Will be checking out a lot of things this evening - but Windows Defender is disabled by Group Policy on the server. No chance for it to be doing anything to the process."
Is what made me think you had MC on the server  - better check the firewall and AV settings on the local machine M23 permissions don't transfer to MC24 - as I know from bitter experience.

[Vocalpoint]

Then you probably have a problem with your MC24 permissions on your local machine.

Well - MC has has been running on this machine for well over a year. I do not see how a permissions problem would suddenly start now?

But I am willing to dig in here - what makes you think permissions are an issue? Besides the obvious install directories and such on C:\ - where else would perms come into play?

I did rebuild our file server that holds our music share - but I have Full Control on that share and have no issues seeing it or enumerating it from this machine.

VP

[swiv3d]

Windows defender and windows firewall can be quite aggressive about MC24 trying to do things you have done for years with previous versions.

[DJLegba]

There is an option to erase orphan thumbnails on exit. Do you have that checked?

[Vocalpoint]

Windows defender and windows firewall can be quite aggressive about MC24 trying to do things you have done for years with previous versions.

Defender is off (for the last time). There is no way it can be part of this process.

I use ESET NOD32 and ALL JRiver folders are set in exceptions. Windows Firewall is normal and has the standard MC rules operating fine.

VP

[Vocalpoint]

There is an option to erase orphan thumbnails on exit. Do you have that checked?

Are you talking about this (see attachment):

I have never touched this option in any version of MC. It has not had any impact on any other library?

VP

[swiv3d]

I also have that set and it has no effect on my various libraries' thumbnails when switching libraries - but who knows windows is a mysterious entity.

[JimH]

Defender is off (for the last time). There is no way it can be part of this process.

I use ESET NOD32 and ALL JRiver folders are set in exceptions. Windows Firewall is normal and has the standard MC rules operating fine.

VP

The whole antivirus area is full of problems.  You can't rely on it being off unless it is off your computer.  So you must make sure it is set correctly.

The erase orphan thumbnails should probably off. 

[DJLegba]

I have never touched this option in any version of MC. It has not had any impact on any other library?

If there is some corruption in your library database, MC could be erasing the thumbnails. The missing thumbnails and the continued slow search are strong indicators that you should try rebuilding the library.

[Vocalpoint]

The whole antivirus area is full of problems.  You can't rely on it being off unless it is off your computer.  So you must make sure it is set correctly. The erase orphan thumbnails should probably off.

It's all good - I have been running ESET for years now and have never had an MC thumbnail incident until now.

It makes no sense that ESET is suddenly to blame - especially when I can confirm that the thumbnails were 100% on Thursday, yesterday (and even this morning) right up until I began switching between libraries.

There is something else going on here especially when I see MC creating multiple thumbnail directories for some unknown reason? (see attachment)

VP

 

[Vocalpoint]

If there is some corruption in your library database, MC could be erasing the thumbnails. The missing thumbnails and the continued slow search are strong indicators that you should try rebuilding the library.

I am getting very close to ditching this library and starting from scratch. But before I nuke it all - how would I do a rebuild?

VP

[Vocalpoint]

Are all of your computers running in a domain?

Standard windows workgroup - no domain here.

VP

[swiv3d]

It's not unusual - hate Tom Jones personally but there you go.

[JimH]

It makes no sense that ESET is suddenly to blame ...

Please don't make such assumptions.  Strange problems are often caused by antivirus software, and you've got some strange problems.  The only way to prove that eset is not at fault is to uninstall it.

Do I recall correctly that you have MC accessing the same data directly from multiple machines, and you're not using MC's Library Server?  Maybe you've said above.

[DJLegba]

I am getting very close to ditching this library and starting from scratch. But before I nuke it all - how would I do a rebuild?

I don't know what the best approach would be, but I'd make sure the cover art and tags are all written to the files, then I'd create a new blank library and import all the files again. I'd probably add the folders in batches and rebuild thumbnails along the way, just in case it turns out there's some file or folder that is causing the library corruption.

[Vocalpoint]

It's not unusual - hate Tom Jones personally but there you go.

As I suspected. But you do have to wonder why MC would need two more folders if the thumbnailing has already occurred and is in cache files?

VP

[Vocalpoint]

Please don't make such assumptions.  Strange problems are often caused by antivirus software, and you've got some strange problems.  The only way to prove that eset is not at fault is to uninstall it.

I would be happy to try that if there was a test (or method) to determine why a library that was showing 100% thumbnails yesterday is showing 54% now AND that ESET is somehow involved but since my only choice now is to sit here for several days and rebuild them again - I can't seriously consider removing it.

Process Monitor (SysInternals) shows no activity of any kind from ESET when MC is running, building thumbs or doing anything else.

I am shifting my focus to the library itself. The possibility of this thing being corrupted is much more likely than ESET trying to jump in the game.

Do I recall correctly that you have MC accessing the same data directly from multiple machines, and you're not using MC's Library Server?  Maybe you've said above.

Yes. This install with the issue is my standard local install. The music locations in the library (all FLAC) do come from our music share. We do have a library server on a dedicated HTPC but this problem is not about connecting to that as a client.

And lookee here - just for kicks - I popped out the server. Check out what is happening with it's thumbnails (See attachment)

Just 5 days ago - I confirmed the server was at 100% thumbnails on 9/2/2018. (See additional attachment showing thumbs directory after 100% update a few days ago)

Seems the new thumbs folders were created at 9:55am this morning - and the files are much smaller than the 9/2/2018 fileset....this is bizarre

The only thing I did this morning was launch a "client" machine that connected to the server. Could this simple connection start the thumb-nailing all over again?

VP

[swiv3d]

Looking at your latest image I would definitely recommend updating to the latest MC version.

[Vocalpoint]

Looking at your latest image I would definitely recommend updating to the latest MC version.

I usually only run "stable" on the media server - but will take it up to the latest to be sure.

VP

[JimH]

Defender is off (for the last time). There is no way it can be part of this process.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114260.0.html

[swiv3d]

I'm getting confused here - "the servers thumbnails" but" I am running MC on my local machine with the server acting as a file share" - Ok I am not 18, but what exactly is your set up?

[Vocalpoint]

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114260.0.html

Thanks for the link - I did review all the screen shots in that link you supplied - none of the issues displayed there apply here. That said - unless RoderickGI works for MS and designs the Windows Defender module - his article (while well done) is merely his ideas (and some healthy speculation) on what he thinks is happening - based on the UI in Windows 10 Pro.

I run Windows 10 Enterprise (and LTSB 2016) - where Windows Defender is not even part of the OS install.

I think it might be more constructive to focus on the "server" screen shot that I posted in a prior thread showing my Media Server version of MC suddenly rebuilding it's thumbnails now too. That install is on Windows Server 2012R2 which does not ship with Windows Defender and has no AV of any kind running on it.

Pretty much confirms that AV is not part of the problem here.

VP

[Vocalpoint]

You keep adding bits of information and changing your base - so I am out of here!

Changing what base? Just providing the background here to show what I am running.

I mentioned the server install to put this Windows Defender thing to rest.

If it's not part of the OS install - it cannot be effecting the media server install - yet there it is  - MC Media Server is suddenly rebuilding it's thumbnails too...

VP

[JimH]

Did you change the setting for orphaned thumbnails?  You don't want MC to remove them.

[Vocalpoint]

Did you change the setting for orphaned thumbnails?  You don't want MC to remove them.

Yep. Changed it to Leave. Both on the media server install and local install as well.

I am now rebuilding the Media Server thumbnails. Will report back after I get it back to 100%

VP

[RoderickGI]

There is something else going on here especially when I see MC creating multiple thumbnail directories for some unknown reason? (see attachment)

MC creates a set of indexed thumbnail files for each library connected to on the PC. So you have used three libraries so far on the PC that you showed the image for. Probably a couple of local libraries and a Client library for the HTPC?

Are you just using the "thumbnail rebuild" function in MC when you try to fix this? If so, and when you complete the thumbnail rebuild you still see problems after switching libraries, then you may have corruption in the thumbnail files which is not being repaired by the rebuild process. I have seen this a couple of times, and others have also reported it.

The fix, if required, will mean another rebuild of the thumbnails. But this time instead of using the rebuild process, delete all the directories under the "C:\Users\[User ID]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 24\Thumbnails" directory, open the library you want to fix, and let MC rebuild the thumbnails again, which it should start doing automatically. That should clear any corruption. Note that this will mean a rebuild of thumbnails for each library, because you are deleting all thumbnail files. I prefer doing that to working out which file set belongs to which library. This has worked for myself and others.

Search the forum for my posts about it if you want more information. 

[Vocalpoint]

MC creates a set of indexed thumbnail files for each library connected to on the PC. So you have used three libraries so far on the PC that you showed the image for. Probably a couple of local libraries and a Client library for the HTPC?

Correct! Actually just three local libraries. I did not see any issues when I connected to the "client" library pointed to the "server".

Are you just using the "thumbnail rebuild" function in MC when you try to fix this? If so, and when you complete the thumbnail rebuild you still see problems after switching libraries, then you may have corruption in the thumbnail files which is not being repaired by the rebuild process. I have seen this a couple of times, and others have also reported it.

Awesome info! Feels like something odd is in play here. Out on the server (where it too lost all thumbnails) I am using the Tools->Options->Tree & View-Build Missing Thumbnails option. That is grinding away right now - only about a 3rd done. I am not using the (right click) Rebuild Thumbnails option as of yet.

The fix, if required, will mean another rebuild of the thumbnails. But this time instead of using the rebuild process, delete all the directories under the "C:\Users\[User ID]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 24\Thumbnails" directory, open the library you want to fix, and let MC rebuild the thumbnails again, which it should start doing automatically. That should clear any corruption. Note that this will mean a rebuild of thumbnails for each library, because you are deleting all thumbnail files. I prefer doing that to working out which file set belongs to which library. This has worked for myself and others.Search the forum for my posts about it if you want more information. 

This is excellent. I will go ahead and delete these directories and get building (again). Will report back when I get things rebuilt. Thanks!

VP

[leezer3]

Can I check that all network drives are mapped and available on *all* machines in the same locations?

I had an issue a while back whereby the server had lost a mapped drive that was still available on the client- which manifested itself as missing mouseover thumbs...
Something similar? (Remember MC will attempt to access files via the server if not available on a client.)

[Vocalpoint]

Can I check that all network drives are mapped and available on *all* machines in the same locations?

I had an issue a while back whereby the server had lost a mapped drive that was still available on the client- which manifested itself as missing mouseover thumbs...
Something similar? (Remember MC will attempt to access files via the server if not available on a client.)

Do not use drive mapping here. All media paths on all instances of MC are entered as UNC paths and all are valid.

VP