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[Duffin]

Hallo Support team, hallo Forum members,

having finally sucessfully worked out how to create ISO Files from my SACDs, and then also worked out how to extract Multichannel DSF Files from the ISO files, I was intrigued to see/hear how the Id got along with actually playing them.

Both the iso and the DSF Files can be read by JRiver.
The ISO File is tricky if you want to get Meta Data attached. I have not been successfull at doing that. Also, one sees all the files twice, once in DSD stereo, and once in DSD Multichannel. The SACD producers are not always consistent about numbering, so sometimes you see Track I Stereo and Track 1 MultiChannel next to one another.... can be very tedious with something like Handel Messiah with 47 tracks in each format....... That is why I went along with extracting DSF Multichannel Files, not bothering with the Stereo Files.

The DSF Multi Channel Files can be played using JRiver, and Tagging them (MetaData) is also no problem in JRiver, I have not yet found an external tool that does that for DSF Files.

Playback of 6-Channel DSF File (5,1) starts off well enough, sounds excellent, but sooner or later, after about 10 minutes or so, the Id stops playback suddenly, and restarts some seconds later. Once or twice those "seconds" became about a minute. I think some kind of buffering is going on. I would guess either I need to change some settings, or perhaps MultiChannel decoding is too much to ask of the ID.
Current setup:
JRiver Media Center 24 on latest Brand New Version of the ID is playing to PCH: DEV 3 ALSA
Output Encoding Dolby Digital
5,1 Channels
JRSS Mixing
No subwoofer Active
Setting "Stereo Sources only Mix to 2.1"

Using these Settings on a PC running the same version, Playback is perfect and sounds really, really cool, cannot hear a difference to playing the SACD in a SACD player.

Does anyone have a suggestion how I might be able to smooth out the ID playback process, or am I asking too much of the Id?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might care to make.

Mike, in Germany.

[bob]

Hallo Support team, hallo Forum members,

having finally sucessfully worked out how to create ISO Files from my SACDs, and then also worked out how to extract Multichannel DSF Files from the ISO files, I was intrigued to see/hear how the Id got along with actually playing them.

Both the iso and the DSF Files can be read by JRiver.
The ISO File is tricky if you want to get Meta Data attached. I have not been successfull at doing that. Also, one sees all the files twice, once in DSD stereo, and once in DSD Multichannel. The SACD producers are not always consistent about numbering, so sometimes you see Track I Stereo and Track 1 MultiChannel next to one another.... can be very tedious with something like Handel Messiah with 47 tracks in each format....... That is why I went along with extracting DSF Multichannel Files, not bothering with the Stereo Files.

The DSF Multi Channel Files can be played using JRiver, and Tagging them (MetaData) is also no problem in JRiver, I have not yet found an external tool that does that for DSF Files.

Playback of 6-Channel DSF File (5,1) starts off well enough, sounds excellent, but sooner or later, after about 10 minutes or so, the Id stops playback suddenly, and restarts some seconds later. Once or twice those "seconds" became about a minute. I think some kind of buffering is going on. I would guess either I need to change some settings, or perhaps MultiChannel decoding is too much to ask of the ID.
Current setup:
JRiver Media Center 24 on latest Brand New Version of the ID is playing to PCH: DEV 3 ALSA
Output Encoding Dolby Digital
5,1 Channels
JRSS Mixing
No subwoofer Active
Setting "Stereo Sources only Mix to 2.1"

Using these Settings on a PC running the same version, Playback is perfect and sounds really, really cool, cannot hear a difference to playing the SACD in a SACD player.

Does anyone have a suggestion how I might be able to smooth out the ID playback process, or am I asking too much of the Id?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might care to make.

Mike, in Germany.

Thanks for the detailed info.
Let me try setting up a specific test for that.
What is the physical connection from the Id to the Amp?

[MikeyFresh]

The DSF Multi Channel Files can be played using JRiver, and Tagging them (MetaData) is also no problem in JRiver, I have not yet found an external tool that does that for DSF Files.

The freeware app https://kid3.sourceforge.io/ will tag .dsf files, including the album artwork.

[Duffin]

Thanks for the detailed info.
Let me try setting up a specific test for that.
What is the physical connection from the Id to the Amp?

Hi Bob, I never saw this response from you, I apologize for not responding at the time.
To answer your question:
The ID is connected to the Amp per HDMI.
Current Status: no change in the issue, but I have updated to the latest version of the ID JRiver Software is in place  Id:24.0.16 MC:25.0.123 Engen:1.0.69.
This made no difference. The "buffering" I referred to in the original post remais, whether I use DSF or the ISO file.
Best wishes
Mike

[Awesome Donkey]

I guess first thing's first, but I need to point out (unless you already know) that unfortunately, you can't get DSD over HDMI working from any kind of computer, including the Id. DSD over HDMI only works for devices like Oppo CD/DVD/BD/SACD capable disc players connected via HDMI to a receiver, for example. DSD bitstreaming on a computer will work via USB and ethernet/DLNA (via DoPE). The reason why DSD over HDMI from a computer won't work is because there's no DSD driver support in any of the display drivers available for a computer regardless if it's a Windows PC, Mac, Linux distro PC, Raspberry Pi, Id, etc.

Now onto the topic at hand, MC will convert DSD to PCM on-the-fly and will allow that to be played over HDMI though, and it seems according to your report MC on the Id is having trouble with dropouts and whatnot. It almost sounds to me the Id isn't powerful enough to keep up the DSD-to-PSM conversion on-the-fly, and thus there's a conversion bottleneck of sorts, which you'll especially notice with multichannel content.

A test you can try is pre-converting a DSF file to a FLAC file and playing the FLAC file and see if any dropouts occur. If the pre-converted FLAC file(s) play fine, then that could point to the on-the-fly conversion bottleneck. DSD-to-PCM conversions (and vice versa), especially multichannel, are very resource intensive tasks MC can do, and I could see how a Id NUC could get overwhelmed in that kind of scenario.

[Duffin]

Hi
Yes. Preconverted flac  files work well but only when i am able to convinCE the id that it has multichannel content. It switches to 2 channel stereo output and then i have to restart. I am unable topersuade it to stay with no. Of source channels. That is why iam trying iso because i have less issues convincing the id it has multichannel content.
Mike

[bob]

Hi
Yes. Preconverted flac  files work well but only when i am able to convinCE the id that it has multichannel content. It switches to 2 channel stereo output and then i have to restart. I am unable topersuade it to stay with no. Of source channels. That is why iam trying iso because i have less issues convincing the id it has multichannel content.
Mike

If your output device supports multichannel and your source input sample rates and you don't power cycle the amp after booting the Id you shouldn't have any issues with that.
Double check your settings in DSP Studio on the Id.
Also make sure in the Audio options that the Id isn't set to change the output format upon failure.

[Duffin]

Hi bob.
"Also make sure in the Audio options that the Id isn't set to change the output format upon failure." solves the issue that the system no longer needs to be persuaded to play multichannel as multichannel and not revert to stereo. Thanks very much for that.

Brings me back to the original problem, which has not gone away. I am unable to play multichannel files unless I convert them to Multichannel FLAC files.

Playback of 6-Channel DSF File (5,1) or the SACD ISO.File starts off well enough, sounds excellent, but sooner or later, after about 5 minutes or so, the Id stops playback suddenly, and restarts some seconds later. Once or twice those "seconds" became about a minute. I think some kind of buffering is going on. I would guess either I need to change some settings, or perhaps MultiChannel decoding is too much to ask of the ID. I have tried playback from memory but that does not help and of course introduces gaps between the tracks whilst loading to memory. Do you have some advice for me or should I simply forget it?

Current setup:
JRiver Media Center latest version on an ID purchased in Sept 2018, the ID is playing to DEV0 HDMI
Output Encoding None
No of Channels "Same as original"
No subwoofer Active


Using these Settings on a Windows PC or MAC MINI running the same version, Playback is perfect and sounds really, really cool, cannot hear a difference to playing the SACD in a SACD player.

[bob]

Hi bob.
"Also make sure in the Audio options that the Id isn't set to change the output format upon failure." solves the issue that the system no longer needs to be persuaded to play multichannel as multichannel and not revert to stereo. Thanks very much for that.

Brings me back to the original problem, which has not gone away. I am unable to play multichannel files unless I convert them to Multichannel FLAC files.

Playback of 6-Channel DSF File (5,1) or the SACD ISO.File starts off well enough, sounds excellent, but sooner or later, after about 5 minutes or so, the Id stops playback suddenly, and restarts some seconds later. Once or twice those "seconds" became about a minute. I think some kind of buffering is going on. I would guess either I need to change some settings, or perhaps MultiChannel decoding is too much to ask of the ID. I have tried playback from memory but that does not help and of course introduces gaps between the tracks whilst loading to memory. Do you have some advice for me or should I simply forget it?

Current setup:
JRiver Media Center latest version on an ID purchased in Sept 2018, the ID is playing to DEV0 HDMI
Output Encoding None
No of Channels "Same as original"
No subwoofer Active


Using these Settings on a Windows PC or MAC MINI running the same version, Playback is perfect and sounds really, really cool, cannot hear a difference to playing the SACD in a SACD player.

A few questions, to narrow this down...
Are the files stored on your Id drive?
Is it a NUC 6?
Is your Id up to date (what are the version numbers shown on the main menu)?
What bitrate PCM is the DSD being converted to? (you can show that in DSP studio as the track is playing)
From what I understand, the multichannel files are compressed, this probably uses even more CPU. If you Id is up to date you can bring up a system resource monitor by right-clicking on the desktop and choosing that from the popup menu.

[Duffin]

Hi Bob
1. files are on the ID Harddisk, but same issue if on a network drive or USB, have tried all.
2. not sure what you mean with "NUC 6". Purchased via JRiver. Product Code BOXNUC6CAYH: S/N G6AY80300B60
3: "Id:24.0.16 MC:25.0.123 Engen:1.0.69" is shown, so, as reported earlier, "latest version".
4. Multichannel Files previously converted to FLAC are not compressed.
4. DSF Files extracted from the ISO are not compressed files as far as I understand
5. ISO Files are not compressed at all but are 1:1 what is on the SACD
6. Bitrate PCM no conversion = SACD original Bitrate whatever it is
Thanks for trying to help me.
Greetings from Germany
Mike

[bob]

Hi Bob
1. files are on the ID Harddisk, but same issue if on a network drive or USB, have tried all.
2. not sure what you mean with "NUC 6". Purchased via JRiver. Product Code BOXNUC6CAYH: S/N G6AY80300B60
3: "Id:24.0.16 MC:25.0.123 Engen:1.0.69" is shown, so, as reported earlier, "latest version".
4. Multichannel Files previously converted to FLAC are not compressed.
4. DSF Files extracted from the ISO are not compressed files as far as I understand
5. ISO Files are not compressed at all but are 1:1 what is on the SACD
6. Bitrate PCM no conversion = SACD original Bitrate whatever it is
Thanks for trying to help me.
Greetings from Germany
Mike

The multichannel tracks on the iso ARE compressed:

"Under the SACD specification, multi-channel DFF tracks are required to be compressed using DST, a lossless compression format. The compression factor is roughly 2.5:1."

What do you see with the monitor enabled for CPU usage?

[Duffin]

I will try that tomorrow it is too late here now 😎.
Thank you for you help. Good night

[Duffin]

Hi Bob
Playing SACD ISO File from ID internal disk
DSP Studio shows the following during playback:

"Source: 352.8 Hz 64 Bit 6 Channel"
"Internal: 96 kHz 64 Bit 6 Channel"
No Output Encoding
Source No of Channels
No Subwoofer

Mike

[Awesome Donkey]

Open the system monitor app (or whatever app is available on the Id to monitor resource usage like CPU) and see what it jumps to when playing back those files. If it jumps to 100% resource usage, that means it's converting those files on-the-fly (since by default MC will convert DSD to PCM), and that's probably the source of your issues because of the intense resource usage incurred when doing on-the-fly conversions like that.

[Duffin]

AFAIK there is no system monitor app available on the ID.
Mike

[bob]

AFAIK there is no system monitor app available on the ID.
Mike

Right-Click on the Id desktop either directly connected or via vnc/rdp and choose "Start system status monitor"

[Duffin]

Hi Bob.
Thanks. I didn't know the system monitor is available on the Id, must have missed it along the road somewhere. Thanks for explaining.

When playing SACD ISO Files I have been running the monitor in parallel as requested.
I have not seen a CPU load higher than 60%, generally it is between 50% and  55% when playing - irrespective of whether the files are stereo or multichannel. I still have the breaks in playback as described earlier in this mailchain. All other monitored objects (ram/network etc) values are lower than 20%-25% all the time.

I do not see a sudden jump or increase in any one of the values when playback stops, or starts again.

BTW I would be happy to provide an SACD ISO or two to an FTP server if that would simplify troubleshooting.

Mike

[bob]

Hi Bob.
Thanks. I didn't know the system monitor is available on the Id, must have missed it along the road somewhere. Thanks for explaining.

When playing SACD ISO Files I have been running the monitor in parallel as requested.
I have not seen a CPU load higher than 60%, generally it is between 50% and  55% when playing - irrespective of whether the files are stereo or multichannel. I still have the breaks in playback as described earlier in this mailchain. All other monitored objects (ram/network etc) values are lower than 20%-25% all the time.

I do not see a sudden jump or increase in any one of the values when playback stops, or starts again.

BTW I would be happy to provide an SACD ISO or two to an FTP server if that would simplify troubleshooting.

Mike

That would be great, please PM me the information, thanks.

[Duffin]

Bob
I didnt do a good job of writing that. Apologies. Too long in Germany, I have forgotten how to write English...

I should have written:

"If you have an FTP Server that I could upload an ISO File to, I would be pleased to do so."

Mike

[bob]

Bob
I didnt do a good job of writing that. Apologies. Too long in Germany, I have forgotten how to write English...

I should have written:

"If you have an FTP Server that I could upload an ISO File to, I would be pleased to do so."

Mike

Can you zip up your stuff and send me a link with firefox send via PM?

[Duffin]

Hi Bob,
bump
please don't forget this one :-)
Mike from Germany.

[bob]

Hi Bob,
bump
please don't forget this one :-)
Mike from Germany.

I haven't forgot, just trying to get past the stuff that needs doing first!