Topic: Audio dropouts Id Classic (Read 6998 times)

BigMikeSantaCruz · « **on:** October 15, 2017, 03:58:44 pm »

I connected a new Id Classic I received on Friday to an Emotiva UMC-200 via HDMI cable. I only play music with MC or Id. My media is anything from 128K to 320K MP3, 44.1/16 to 192/24 FLAC and AIFF, and quite a number of DSD files up to around 11,000K. All media is stored on a Samba server, and I tested network speeds to the Id and a 700MB file can be transferred in about 7 seconds in either direction.

1] I am unable to play any DSD file higher than about 6000K without significant and frequent dropouts. A 6 minute track might have 4 or 5 dropouts of 5 seconds or more. Thought if I set the Output Format to 192K, these tracks will play. I copied one of these files to the Id's local storage and there was no improvement.

2] If I start playing a track from stopped, the first second or so of the track is missing and then it just cuts in at that point. I tried various settings for "Play Silence at startup to synchronize hardware", and all it does is add that many seconds before the track cuts in after missing the first second or two.

3] There is a 1-second dropout at about 5 or 10 seconds before the end of every track regardless of media type. I tried various combinations of Bitstreaming None/HDMI, Prebuffering 6/20 seconds, and Memory playback None/Load decoded. This dropout occurs regardless if there is another track queued in Playing Now, or it's the last track to be played.

4] There are occasional dropouts when I open dialogs within MC22.

I've been a JRiver user since the old Media Jukebox 7. But I'm really baffled by all three of these dropouts.

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** October 15, 2017, 04:17:04 pm »

In DSP Studio > Output Settings, try converting anything that is causing trouble to PCM.

MC has an option to play leading silence. That might cure the second problem.

The dropout at the end might be related to cross fade. In Audio settings for track transition, try gapped playback.

BigMikeSantaCruz · « **Reply #2 on:** October 15, 2017, 04:59:14 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions.

The dropouts in 2, 3, 4 is with Output Format set to 192 KHz PCM. Any DSD in DoP encoding format leads to some tracks playing silently.

I changed the Track Change to gapless, and it did not help with the dropouts at the end of the track. I'm still getting those. However, it improved the dropout at the beginning of a track when playing from a stopped player.

Any advice on playing my DSD media?

BigMikeSantaCruz · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2017, 08:08:31 pm »

Is my Id defective? Or should I figure out a way to live with the dropouts?

BigMikeSantaCruz · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2017, 11:24:13 am »

Is this the right forum to get support on my new Id?

JimH · « **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2017, 12:23:30 pm »

I think that nobody knows the answer. The Id has limited CPU power and that could be causing the problem.

Bandwidth could also be a factor.

BigMikeSantaCruz · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2017, 05:56:42 pm »

Oh, no. I'm able play any of these media files on my four year-old Win10 machine. I don't think it's bandwidth. I mention network performance in my original post, and even copying media to the internal storage.

I've looked everywhere for the specs on the Id. Is there an Id that has more power? Is there a way to upgrade the Id's memory or CPU or mobo? Can I return the Id if I choose to build a custom HTPC?

JimH · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2017, 06:05:21 pm »

That NUC is the only one we use for the Id. It's meant to be a quality renderer, but it may have limits when you get into DSD territory.

MC has a benchmark tool under the Help menu. You could run it on both machines to get an idea of the difference.

It's returnable for 30 days.

BigMikeSantaCruz · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2017, 07:08:44 pm »

Okay, benchmark results were Id=811, Win10=4385

I'm disappointed that I misunderstood the purpose of the Id. I can play PCM at 96KHz, but problems occur at 192KHz. Same sort of limits I find with my previous TOSLink connection. Thanks for your help.

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2017, 07:49:13 pm »

You might want to try this:

JRiver Listening Test.

bob · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2017, 03:45:40 pm »

Quote from: BigMikeSantaCruz on October 18, 2017, 07:08:44 pm

Okay, benchmark results were Id=811, Win10=4385

I'm disappointed that I misunderstood the purpose of the Id. I can play PCM at 96KHz, but problems occur at 192KHz. Same sort of limits I find with my previous TOSLink connection. Thanks for your help.

You still should be able to play dsd either directly if you have a DoP capable USB dac or converted to PCM otherwise.
Is your troublesome material stereo or multi-channel?

BigMikeSantaCruz · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2017, 05:22:57 pm »

They are stereo.

bob · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2017, 03:44:18 pm »

Quote from: BigMikeSantaCruz on October 23, 2017, 05:22:57 pm

They are stereo.

There is an update coming that will enable the player to spend more time on the audio thread than on the other threads. It could solve the issue.

Rafal Lukawiecki · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2018, 08:10:34 am »

Quote from: bob on October 24, 2017, 03:44:18 pm

There is an update coming that will enable the player to spend more time on the audio thread than on the other threads. It could solve the issue.

Bob, have you shipped this update yet? My Id (Classic) stalls from time to time for anything from 10-20 seconds midway through playback. This happens more with complex sources (5.1) than stereo, so I think it may be related to CPU. It used to be much rarer before last year's updates, perhaps the newer MC is more demanding of the hardware. I have 20s prebuffering on but it does not help.

Any suggestions would be welcome. I am open to replacing the Classic with newer hardware if you feel it would help.

Many thanks and regards from Ireland,
Rafal

[Update] I have experimented with reducing pre-buffering to 6s (from my long-time value of 20s) and turning on "memory playback" using "load decoded file into memory". It seems to have cured the issue for stereo content, at least for now. I will report if I find out more.

PS. Benchmarks from this Id show JRMark 22.0.113 of 991. Math 701, image 1036, db 1237.

bob · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2018, 11:42:03 am »

Quote from: Rafal Lukawiecki on February 03, 2018, 08:10:34 am

Bob, have you shipped this update yet? My Id (Classic) stalls from time to time for anything from 10-20 seconds midway through playback. This happens more with complex sources (5.1) than stereo, so I think it may be related to CPU. It used to be much rarer before last year's updates, perhaps the newer MC is more demanding of the hardware. I have 20s prebuffering on but it does not help.

Any suggestions would be welcome. I am open to replacing the Classic with newer hardware if you feel it would help.

Many thanks and regards from Ireland,
Rafal

[Update] I have experimented with reducing pre-buffering to 6s (from my long-time value of 20s) and turning on "memory playback" using "load decoded file into memory". It seems to have cured the issue for stereo content, at least for now. I will report if I find out more.

PS. Benchmarks from this Id show JRMark 22.0.113 of 991. Math 701, image 1036, db 1237.

The latest Id repair firmware can upgrade to MC23 which has the thread priorities.
If you try it you should backup your library and any media files you have on the Id first.

Rafal Lukawiecki · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2018, 12:23:07 pm »

Quote from: bob on February 08, 2018, 11:42:03 am

The latest Id repair firmware can upgrade to MC23 which has the thread priorities.
If you try it you should backup your library and any media files you have on the Id first.

Thank you, Bob. I will plan some time for the upgrade. Have you tried it on a Classic Id yet?

bob · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2018, 04:06:41 pm »

Quote from: Rafal Lukawiecki on February 08, 2018, 12:23:07 pm

Thank you, Bob. I will plan some time for the upgrade. Have you tried it on a Classic Id yet?

Just verified that works fine.

Rafal Lukawiecki · « **Reply #17 on:** September 06, 2018, 02:45:38 pm »

Quote from: bob on February 08, 2018, 11:42:03 am

The latest Id repair firmware can upgrade to MC23 which has the thread priorities.
If you try it you should backup your library and any media files you have on the Id first.

Bob, I have, at last, updated to MC 23 (now trying for 24). I am happy to report that this has cured the occassional tiny pauses that I have been experiencing with more complex content, such as multichannel higher-def audio. I do not know if this is because the thread prioritisation enables MC on the Id to do a better job of focusing on the high priority playback, or if other MC 23 changes impacted on. Either way, I am pleased and I will let you know if the issue resurfaces.

Thank you for your work.

Rafal Lukawiecki · « **Reply #18 on:** September 07, 2018, 10:32:26 am »

I am afraid I had the first stall today, with Id/MC 24.

While listening to 44.1/24 FLAC, 1380 Kbps, stereo, about 7 minutes into it, there was an approximately a 10 s stall. This is not a drop-out, as the player picks up where it stopped, but the gap is frustrating.

It is playing to HDMI and in terms of processing, it is only doing volume levelling.

I wonder if a newer NUC would not have these issues...maybe mine has just never been powerful enough?

bob · « **Reply #19 on:** September 07, 2018, 10:45:28 am »

Quote from: Rafal Lukawiecki on September 07, 2018, 10:32:26 am

I am afraid I had the first stall today, with Id/MC 24. While listening to 44.1/24 FLAC, 1380 Kbps, stereo, about 7 minutes into it, there was an approximately a 10 s stall. This is not a drop-out, as the player picks up where it stopped, but the gap is frustrating.

It is playing to HDMI and in terms of processing, it is only doing volume levelling.

I wonder if a newer NUC would not have these issues...maybe mine has just never been powerful enough?

How are you playing?
Is the file stored on the Id or somewhere else?
There shouldn't be an issue with the CPU power of the Id on anything short of multichannel DSD and even there I don't think it's an issue.

Rafal Lukawiecki · « **Reply #20 on:** September 07, 2018, 10:58:24 am »

Quote from: bob on September 07, 2018, 10:45:28 am

How are you playing?
Is the file stored on the Id or somewhere else?
There shouldn't be an issue with the CPU power of the Id on anything short of multichannel DSD and even there I don't think it's an issue.

Files are on a 2TB drive directly attached to the Id via front USB. I remember trying turning on MC play from memory option at some stage, but it did not help then. Any other ideas you can think of for me to try, I would be happy to do so.

What complicates the issue is the somewhat random nature of it. It was pretty predictably bad before the recent upgrade, with frequent very short (1/4s) drop-outs, almost one on every long and more complex (ie. more than 44.1/16 FLAC stereo) song. The upgrade fixed that, but unfortunately not the long delay that I used to experience long time ago, which is back now.

bob · « **Reply #21 on:** September 07, 2018, 11:46:52 am »

Quote from: Rafal Lukawiecki on September 07, 2018, 10:58:24 am

Files are on a 2TB drive directly attached to the Id via front USB. I remember trying turning on MC play from memory option at some stage, but it did not help then. Any other ideas you can think of for me to try, I would be happy to do so.

What complicates the issue is the somewhat random nature of it. It was pretty predictably bad before the recent upgrade, with frequent very short (1/4s) drop-outs, almost one on every long and more complex (ie. more than 44.1/16 FLAC stereo) song. The upgrade fixed that, but unfortunately not the long delay that I used to experience long time ago, which is back now.

Interesting.
It kind of sounds as if there is an issue accessing the files on the 2TB drive.

You could try turning off auto-import in case that's bogging things down.

Past that, I suspect an issue with the drive itself or with the drive hardware having some sort of incompatibility with the Id USB driver. You could try one of the back panel USB connections.

magicLX521.com · « **Reply #22 on:** September 14, 2018, 01:54:53 am »

Aside from the benchmark tool:

Is there a possibility to monitor Id NUCs CPU load?
Changing buffer size could have an effect in minimizing CPU load.

magicLX521.com · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2018, 01:59:49 am »

One of these command line tools
https://linoxide.com/monitoring-2/10-tools-monitor-cpu-performance-usage-linux-command-line/
would enable CPU load monitoring in JRiver ID
and then allow optimizing settings for lowest CPU load......

Is there any possibilty in JR ID to enter a linux command line?

Thanks

BradATIMA · « **Reply #24 on:** September 24, 2018, 10:38:58 am »

Quote from: magicLX521.com on September 23, 2018, 01:59:49 am

One of these command line tools
https://linoxide.com/monitoring-2/10-tools-monitor-cpu-performance-usage-linux-command-line/
would enable CPU load monitoring in JRiver ID
and then allow optimizing settings for lowest CPU load......

Is there any possibilty in JR ID to enter a linux command line?

Thanks

Users cannot access the command line on the Id, and I doubt that will ever change. The problem is that allowing users command line access gives them the control to change a lot on the Id, and potentially break it. It becomes almost impossible for us to diagnose a problem with the Id at that point.

magicLX521.com · « **Reply #25 on:** September 27, 2018, 01:45:45 am »

understand that.

Maybe something for the wish list:
A tick box in JR ID GUI to (temporarily) enable CPU load monitoring...

magicLX521.com · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2019, 10:57:36 pm »

...not exactly dropouts, but nasty clicks and pops disturb quiet first parts of songs.

All FLAC files are played from Ids SSD (no DSP or other conversion selected).
JRemote on iPad controls Ids playback.

The clicks/pops seem to correlate with Ipads control action. The more you browse the library or modify the playlist, clicks increase.

Ideas?

JimH · « **Reply #27 on:** January 30, 2019, 02:28:57 am »

Try building all thumbnails first. It's available in options.

bob · « **Reply #28 on:** January 30, 2019, 10:07:35 am »

Quote from: magicLX521.com on September 27, 2018, 01:45:45 am

understand that.

Maybe something for the wish list:
A tick box in JR ID GUI to (temporarily) enable CPU load monitoring...

That could be displayed in Panel as well as MC. A good suggestion.

bob · « **Reply #29 on:** January 30, 2019, 10:08:40 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 30, 2019, 02:28:57 am

Try building all thumbnails first. It's available in options.

JRemote really hits the Id hard when thumbnails aren't prebuilt and you are opening categories (like artist/album, etc) so this is the first best thing to try.

magicLX521.com · « **Reply #30 on:** February 08, 2019, 05:15:24 am »

Thanks,

thumbnailing reduced the clicks/pops.

BTW
The clicks/pops seem to correlate with the time span needed
from selecting a track in the library
til it appears at the bottom of the playback list.

Maybe CPU load in my JR Id is still too high.

I would love to see Ids CPU load realtime, i.o. to check for ideal buffer size.
With lowest CPU load, the clicks/pops should disappear.

Best
Frank

JimH · « **Reply #31 on:** February 08, 2019, 05:23:55 am »

What is the reclocker in your signature? Can you test without it?

magicLX521.com · « **Reply #32 on:** February 08, 2019, 02:03:23 pm »

Hi Jim,

the thumbnailing reduced most of the clicks to the initial switching clicks, which is OK for me.

I use this reclocker: https://www.magiclx521.com/epages/17940394.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/17940394/Products/%22afi%20USB%22/SubProducts/%22afi%20USB%22

Just tried the bypass and fed direct USB. No effect on switching clicks or latencies.

Still strange: After thumbnailing , some tracks appear immediately at the end of the playlist, other tracks appear more than 30s delayed.
You can force the appearance of this selected song on the playlist by
pressing >> when the last song on the list is playing.
(older Ipad with JRemote 3.27)

JimH · « **Reply #33 on:** February 08, 2019, 03:07:41 pm »

Does the reclocker have a driver?

bob · « **Reply #34 on:** February 08, 2019, 04:14:16 pm »

Quote from: magicLX521.com on February 08, 2019, 02:03:23 pm

Hi Jim,

the thumbnailing reduced most of the clicks to the initial switching clicks, which is OK for me.

I use this reclocker: https://www.magiclx521.com/epages/17940394.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/17940394/Products/%22afi%20USB%22/SubProducts/%22afi%20USB%22

Just tried the bypass and fed direct USB. No effect on switching clicks or latencies.

Still strange: After thumbnailing , some tracks appear immediately at the end of the playlist, other tracks appear more than 30s delayed.
You can force the appearance of this selected song on the playlist by
pressing >> when the last song on the list is playing.
(older Ipad with JRemote 3.27)

Interesting.
Can you do the system report (help->system info) and check to make sure the thumbs are all built?

Also, we just posted an update for the classic (if you are on the MC24 version) that will allow you to show a nice system status monitor from the right-click menu.

magicLX521.com · « **Reply #35 on:** February 17, 2019, 08:58:08 am »

Great monitoring tool!
Thanks!
CPU load and RAM usage are self explanatory . Wonder about the rest..?

Just did a quick check on CPU load:
A song starts with 30-55% CPU load , then eases to ca 15-20% , while 17-18% RAM load.

Buffer Time: recommended setting seems to go with lowest CPU load
Period Time: higher setting than recommended seem to lower CPU load by 2-5%

@ Jim : The AFI-USB reclocker needs driver install only for windows. For OS X and Linux not necessary. Thumbnails are 100% built.

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Author Topic: Audio dropouts Id Classic (Read 6998 times)