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[blgentry]

I'm not sure what the current state of MC is with respect to truly synchronized playback.  My experiments, using MC on Mac, MC on ARM Linux (Pi), and some older experiments with WDTV, never achieved synced playback.

Is it possible with some combination of MC and/or other software?

I would like to have 2 to 5 devices playing the same thing in sync, including track changes, play/pause cycles, etc.  I can't make this work with my current setup.  I'm investigating hardware devices to help (wireless audio transmitter/receiver pairs) as well as other music server software and clients.

As some of you reading this know, I have a heavy investment in MC knowledge and use.  I really like the product and feel like I can do a lot with it.  I'd like for MC to be my solution to synced multi-device playback (wirelessly).  But if it can't do it, I'll find something else.

The purpose of this post is to try to figure out if I should invest time and money in MC to do this, or skip straight to other solutions. 

Thanks for any information, real life experience, etc.

Brian.

[blgentry]

Hmm, seems like the answer is no.

I guess I'm off to pursue other solutions then.

Brian.

[JohnT]

Hey Brian,

From our previous discussion it's obvious that it's not working well currently between an MC instance on Mac or Windows and one or more of our Id devices (either Pi or NUC based).  Can you describe your desired use case?  It sounds like it might be a Mac as the "main" audio zone syncing to one or more remote renderer zones which could be Id Pi based, is that right?  Would the other renderers be in different rooms?

Thanks,
John

[blgentry]

Can you describe your desired use case?  It sounds like it might be a Mac as the "main" audio zone syncing to one or more remote renderer zones which could be Id Pi based, is that right?  Would the other renderers be in different rooms?

Desired setup:

1.  MC server.  Pi is desired, but could be Mac.  This device will also do playback to a locally attached DAC.
2.  One or more renderers in different rooms.  Pis are desirable because they are rather inexpensive.  Other devices would be considered.  Full Windows PCs are probably not practical given their price points and form factors.
3.  True synced playback between all renderers and the server which is playing locally.

In short, digital audio played in "whole house" mode.  Just one thing playing, but playing in sync everywhere.

The question was intended to see if ANY combination of MC and perhaps 3rd party renderers could do this reliably and repeatably.  Maybe the answer is "yes" if I were to use Windows PCs for everything?  That's not an option for me, but I'm interested if even that platform can do this.

Thanks,

Brian.

[blgentry]

So....?

Seems like I probably need to seek alternate solutions. 

Would John or someone else care to comment on this? 

Brian.

[mattkhan]

anecdotal commentary only but no one else is replying so I thought I'd comment

I was under the impression that zone sync 2 was intended for this use case but that that requires MC clients in all locations. ISTR people reporting that it generally worked but I don't know how stable it is nor how plug and play it is.

Personally I've tended to use chromecast groups for this, seems to work ok. I find the MC -> BubbleUPnP a bit flaky so have tended to drive it by casting my phone to it. The most commonly used product I've come across (amongst friends) in this situation is sonos. I have not looked v hard but I don't recall encountering something like this is works with miscellaneous/heterogeneous kit.

[RoderickGI]

I was under the impression that zone sync 2 was intended for this use case but that that requires MC clients in all locations.

In my testing, and based on posts on the topic, I believe it requires MC installations, but that they need to be running as normal DLNA Renderers, not as MC Clients.

I only tested with two Windows based installations, because that is all I can at the moment. But the audio sync was retained when running the MC installations independently, and did not remain in sync when I connected my Client to the Server (i.e. loaded the Server Library on the Client) and tried to play in sync.

[AndrewFG]

When playing over the LAN, the speed of play out depends on the CPU clock in the renderer and not on the server. Some players will play out a few bits per second faster than others. This means that even though tracks may start playing out at the same time, they will tend to drift further and further out of sync the longer the track is played. Obviously the more diverse the renderers, the more likely such drift is to happen, so using multiple identical renderers would tend to give the least drift.

The UPNP standards body has defined extensions to the standard for SyncPlay that provides mechanisms for renderers and servers to synchronise their clocks and thus their play out speeds. However it is quite a complex mechanism and probably quite difficult to implement at low cost in consumer equipment. And (therefore) so far as I am aware, no manufacturer has yet implemented it. (The DMRA from my sig, will tell you if your renderer supports SyncPlay or not).

EDIT: I think that theoretically if MC were serving the tracks using DSP, it might be able to add or remove samples from the outgoing bitstreams sent to each renderer, in order to compensate for consistent differences in play out speed between them. However I think this would be hard to set up, and it would not be able to compensate for random drifts.

[mattkhan]

I only tested with two Windows based installations, because that is all I can at the moment. But the audio sync was retained when running the MC installations independently, and did not remain in sync when I connected my Client to the Server (i.e. loaded the Server Library on the Client) and tried to play in sync.

Isn't the normal recommendation to have a single library server which has many clients? If so, bit odd to have something that doesn't work in that scenario.

IMV the most useful thing would be for a developer to provide s technical post on exactly how this works. This would probably give a clue as to whether it is likely to work in any given scenario.

[blgentry]

It's really too bad that this doesn't work.  At least not in my tests.

I'm currently testing a totally different server and client product which does this out of the box.  So far it has pretty much perfect sync to several network clients on raspberry Pi and Mac.


Brian.

[BigCat]

I would like to have 2 to 5 devices playing the same thing in sync, including track changes, play/pause cycles, etc....
Brian.

Is there an update to this thread? I have been wanting to do the same thing forever (if I am understanding you). My Windows PC is my main player/server. I am just running regular RCA wires out the back of the motherboard on the computer to the main (nice but aging) stereo. I am using JRiver's awesome settings to create different Zones for playing "only on computer", "only on stereo", or both, which works great.

However; I want to also send music throughout the house IN SYNC and VOLUME LEVELED to phones (both Android and iPhones) and other devices, that "just works" so non-techie people can use it.

My temporary work around is this: PC JRiver to WiFi to an old android phone running Gizmo to Bluetooth speakers in the garage. Despite taking a few steps to get it running every time, it actually works pretty well. But without sync, its playing different stuff than the main stereo, which is irritating when you come inside from the garage. Also, I haven't figured out how to do volume leveling.

I am not interested in a "smart home" unless it is open source, transparent, and simple. I am willing to buy stuff, within reason. Would the JRiver Id now do this? I think Bluetooth doesn't work on the Id. The coolest thing would be some kind of wireless boombox that could be carried anywhere, but I also want to get a soundbar for the TV that doubles as a JRiver receiver.

This is to me the Holy Grail of digital music. Whole Home Audio! I buy every new JRiver version, hoping it will work. JRiver is so advanced. There has to be a way.

What is the latest?

[RoderickGI]

Well, as above if you are running MC installations as independent DLNA Renderers, and not MC Server Clients, then Volume Leveling is available under the DLNA settings for Audio > Advanced. But I haven't tried it and don't know if that actually works.

An Id running in the garage, with wired speakers, might be the way to go. But I'm not sure if it would sync properly to a Linux based Id, so a NUC running Windows and MC would probably be safer. Then you could use Bluetooth speakers, since the NUC and Windows support Bluetooth.

You may even be able to play to JRiver for Android on an old Android phone at some stage. But at the moment playing to JRiver for Android from another MC installation is just too unreliable.

You could then control the server for playback using any of the appropriate remotes (Gizmo, JRemote, MO 4Media) or Panel from a phone, all over WiFi, Playing to a Zone Group (I think that works) that includes all the Zones (MC installations running as DLNA Renderers) you want to play in sync.

But I haven't tried this, as I don't have enough Windows-based devices to test it properly. If you are willing to invest, it could be worth a try though.

[blgentry]

Based on what I've read over the years and the lack of replies here from JRiver staff, I do not believe that true "in sync" playback exists for network devices in the JRiver world.  This seems to include JRiver to JRiver communication.  That's what I was trying:  JRiver on Mac to JRiver on Linux (ARM, Pi).  It does not work.

Maybe it only works on windows platforms?  I don't own any and don't plan to so I can't test that.

I now have several weeks of successful in sync playback with another platform.  That platform is quite popular, but is very different than JRiver and can't do a lot that JRiver can.  I would still love to do this with JRiver, but I hold out no hope. 

Brian.

[AndrewFG]

Based on what I've read over the years and the lack of replies here from JRiver staff, I do not believe that true "in sync" playback exists for network devices in the JRiver world.

This is not an issue caused by JRiver. It is an issue caused by the UPNP / DLNA specifications. Version 1 of these specifications allow synchronisation of the Start Play command being sent to multiple renderers. But they do not allow synchronisation of the play out speed of different renderers. Different renderers have different CPU clocks so that even if they start to play at the same time, they will play out at different bits per second, and over time the tracks will tend to diverge.

Versions 2.x of the specifications did address this issue by adding a SyncPlay command set that allows not just synchronisation of the start time between renderers, but also synchronisation of the play out speed between them. (It does this by providing a master clock synchronisation framework between devices).

However neither JRiver, nor any other renderer manufacturer, actually implemented v2.x of the specifications. So don’t blame JRiver for this, but rather blame the hardware manufacturers.

Notwithstanding the above, I think it should be possible to have fairly well synchronised play out speeds across two or more identical renderers from the same manufacturer. It certainly has a better chance of being synchronised than between different renderers from different manufacturers. Also playing shorter tracks should help. And disabling SetNext gapless playback should also help..

[Axim30user]

You could also be using for instance HEOS speakers and HEOS AVR which will allow for playing the same music in sync on a group. If you add all speakers to the group you get the synced sound on all.
Most likely same will work with Sonos but haven't got these.

I might be completely wrong about your intentions and what your trying to achieve though.

[GMahal]

I am also very interested in this topic. I am trying out JRiver on my Win10 PC and it has the interface that I am looking for!

However, when I link zones (either Sonos, Squezebox Duets or Networked Yamaha receivers) the audio is out of sync 

So, I came across this thread and figured I'd ask if there is any update?

Do the NUC based Id's work well syncing audio with JRiver running in a Win10 PC? 

[GMahal]

So, zone sync between like platforms works? 

If I bought two NUCs and installed Win10 and MC on them, they would sync with my desktop PC running MC?