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[brookb]

I'm trying to use JRiver's "Output Format" DSP Studio processing to convert multi-channel native PCM recordings (quad 192kHz) on-the-fly to 4XDSD quad for playback. My playback device (Merging HAPI) supports the 4xDSD format for up to 8 channels just fine if the file is 'native' 4xDSD.  However, when trying to convert quad PCM to DSD on the fly with "Output Format", the output format window shows the output channels as '2 channels (stereo)', and is grayed out so that I can't change it to '4 channels'.  The quad is mixed down to stereo and then converted which is NOT what I'm looking to do.  This issue has always been present in all DSD capable versions of MC as far as I know (going back around 2.5 years since I got the HAPI).  So this is not a new characteristic starting with MC25.

As an experiment, I took one of the quad 192kHz files and did a format conversion to 4xDSD in MC25.  The result of that played back fine in bitstreaming quad mode.  But that's not a good long-term solution, as the file sizes get way too big!.  My 12 minute song turned into 3.8GB dsf file.  I really want to be able to convert multi-channel PCM files to multi-channel DSD for playback on-the-fly while keeping them in their native PCM format on the hard drive.

I realize that there are arguments that native PCM of such a high sample rate may not sound any better as DSD, so performing such a conversion doesn't add any value.  That may or may not be true.  But I'd like to be able to listen and make that determination for myself.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

[brookb]

Hmmm.  Nobody else is wanting to play multi-channel PCM files as DSD?  There's gotta be others that would like to do this.  Bump.

[kr4]

Hmmm.  Nobody else is wanting to play multi-channel PCM files as DSD?  There's gotta be others that would like to do this.  Bump.

Mebbe yes, mebbe no.  I have no interest in trying what you want to do but it may have to with many things.  Have you tried to send it, not as quad, but as a standard 5.1 output?  Is your processor capable of handling such processing on-the-fly?

[brookb]

Hi KR4.  Didn't see your response until now.  If I could set to send as 5.1, I'd try it.  But when you enable the "Output Format" option that allows you to select 4xDSD output format, it does NOT allow you to choose any channel arrangement except Stereo.  Stereo is pre-selected, and grayed out so that you can't change it.

It would be ideal to be able to select whatever channel arrangement you want as output, and then have JRiver convert to that channel arrangement while still in the PCM domain (using JRSS mixing if required), and then convert from PCM to 4XDSD in that channel arrangement for output, be it stereo, quad, 5.1, or whatever.  I'm sure most modern multi-core CPUs have the horsepower needed.  When I play a quad 192k file, converting to 4xDSD stereo (since that's the only option), JRiver runs at about 5% of CPU, so it's obviousl that there's plenty more horsepower to convert additional channels.  We just need JRiver to allow that option.

[kr4]

Hi KR4.  Didn't see your response until now.  If I could set to send as 5.1, I'd try it.  But when you enable the "Output Format" option that allows you to select 4xDSD output format, it does NOT allow you to choose any channel arrangement except Stereo.  Stereo is pre-selected, and grayed out so that you can't change it.

I just tried that and can confirm your experience.  I wonder if this is something that the wisemen of JR just overlooked, is it a bug or if it can it be fixed.

It would be ideal to be able to select whatever channel arrangement you want as output, and then have JRiver convert to that channel arrangement while still in the PCM domain (using JRSS mixing if required), and then convert from PCM to 4XDSD in that channel arrangement for output, be it stereo, quad, 5.1, or whatever.  I'm sure most modern multi-core CPUs have the horsepower needed.  When I play a quad 192k file, converting to 4xDSD stereo (since that's the only option), JRiver runs at about 5% of CPU, so it's obviousl that there's plenty more horsepower to convert additional channels.  We just need JRiver to allow that option.

Well, it does require more horsepower to do the conversion on-the-fly while playing it back but that is not the problem you are facing. 

Frankly, I had never tried to upsample-to-DSD before as I have no need (or desire) to.  I can and do play DSD256 multichannel but only with native files.  Just because your DAC (and mine) can handle this, is that a justification for upsampling?

[brookb]

Well, I haven't done any blind or double blind testing, so its possible my mind was playing tricks on me.  I think that certainly happens with many audiophiles when we're trying to hear differences.  But when I was trying different playback options through my HAPI in stereo mode, I found that converting PCM files to DSD seemed to make things sound just a little smoother and more 'analog' like.   So since I 'can' do it, I though I'd set up a JRiver zone that automatically converted everything to DSD for playback for me.  It works great, except its limited to stereo.

I would like to perform some blind or double blind testing to confirm (or disprove) what I think I'm hearing.  But right now, I'm just going with trusting what I hear.   I know the data is coming from the PCM files, and you can't get more information than is already on them.  But perhaps the DSD conversion has fewer audible and objectionable artifacts when playing back than direct PCM playback does.   It may turn out that conversion to DSD is advantageous on some DACs and not so much (or even detrimental) on others.