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Author Topic: DSP Studio Testing  (Read 2380 times)

BCZ

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DSP Studio Testing
« on: June 28, 2019, 04:02:50 pm »

I'm posting here for more visibility even though I did the testing in JRiver 23 for Windows. I suspect this happens in JRiver 25 as well since I've never seen a changelog that mentions improved audio performance.

I'm using JRiver's DSP studio to make an active speaker, and it looks like I have to stop using it. This post is to inform JRiver engineers of the bugs I've seen.



This is the loopback measurement using JRiver's WDM + DSP Studio, with a single 48dB/octave high pass filter at 30Hz. There are multiple problems.

1. The clearest problem is the strange low shelf filter around 700Hz. After multiple testing, this is an artifact caused by the high pass filter. What's interesting is that if I use a VST that does the same high pass filter, it shows the exact same problem. This seems to indicate a numerical stability problem in JRiver's audio pipeline.

2. Look at the wiggles in the measurement. This should not happen at all. A loopback measurement with Equalizer APO shows a clean flat line.

3. There is a slight rise in treble for some reason. Again, I think this is due to numerical instability

Other audio bugs.

1. The subwoofer limiter has lots of problems too, and that's been documented on this forum before, but no action was taken.

2. Every time the FIR files are changed, the first 30 seconds are kind of off, and then sound will jump 1-2 times and get back into proper timing. Also, the delay is huge, almost exactly 4x longer than it should be. But it seems JRiver is aware of this and corrects it properly when playing videos within JRiver.

I've suspected JRiver has sound quality issues for some time now. I've verified it with double blind listening tests. The difference is quite obvious compared to Equalizer APO. I suspect the problems are non linear as well. There's clearly something going on with the DSP processing in JRiver. For now, I'm moving to Equalizer APO. I hope the engineering team can find it.
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mattkhan

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Re: JRiver has numerical stability issues
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2019, 04:08:34 pm »

I have tested the DSP engine a fair bit and have never seen anything like this

If there is a problem then I would think it is in the behaviour of the wdm driver (whether specific to your system or not is another Q)

I suggest you be more specific about exactly how you tested and then someone else can attempt to reproduce.
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BCZ

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Re: JRiver has numerical stability issues
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2019, 04:15:29 pm »

This is really simple to reproduce. All you have to do is use a single 48dB/oct high pass filter at 30Hz in parametric EQ in DSP studio, with the WDM driver, to do this

I used REW to do the loopback measurement by connecting the output to the line in on my sound card. The wiggles are not due to noise of my sound card, loopback measurements with Equalizer APO shows a clean line.
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BCZ

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Re: JRiver has numerical stability issues
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2019, 04:16:39 pm »

I tested other things too. Peaking filters are just fine. The shelf filters are good except the Q values are slightly off compared to the cookbook EQ formulas. It took some time to single out it was the high pass filter that's problematic.
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mattkhan

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Re: JRiver has numerical stability issues
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2019, 04:20:58 pm »

The shelf filters are good except the Q values are slightly off compared to the cookbook EQ formulas.
jriver treats Q as S for shelf filters - https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Parametric_Equalizer#Q_or_S

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mattkhan

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Re: JRiver has numerical stability issues
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2019, 04:34:48 pm »

This is really simple to reproduce. All you have to do is use a single 48dB/oct high pass filter at 30Hz in parametric EQ in DSP studio, with the WDM driver, to do this

I used REW to do the loopback measurement by connecting the output to the line in on my sound card. The wiggles are not due to noise of my sound card, loopback measurements with Equalizer APO shows a clean line.
I tried this using a digital loopback so it's a pure measurement of the (digital) signal chain

REW -> java driver -> WDM loopback -> jriver -> DSP studio -> ASIO out -> mixer configured to loop that back to ASIO input -> WDM wrapper on ASIO input -> REW

looks clean to me

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BCZ

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Re: JRiver has numerical stability issues
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2019, 04:36:03 pm »

I tried this using a digital loopback so it's a pure measurement of the (digital) signal chain, looks clean to me

What version of JRiver is this?
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mattkhan

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Re: DSP Studio Testing
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2019, 04:37:16 pm »

What version of JRiver is this?
25 though I have tested earlier versions before and had no issues.
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: DSP Studio Testing
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2019, 05:40:21 pm »

The WDM driver was greatly improved in MC24/MC25. You might retest with MC25 and see if your issue still occurs.
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BCZ

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Re: DSP Studio Testing
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2019, 07:22:12 pm »

Ahhh, I just got a trial MC25, and it works perfectly. Sorry for the alarm.
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