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Author Topic: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?  (Read 1882 times)

Will N. Dowd

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Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« on: August 06, 2019, 02:05:16 am »

I've been using Media Jukebox since 2010 but have run into a problem that is driving me mad.
I want to make sure I won't have the same issue if I purchase MC.

I sync my playlists to a microSD card on my android phone and play them on poweramp no problem.
I sync my playlists to a USB thumb drive and play it through my home theater receiver no problem.

Problem is the thumb drive goes to sleep when the home theater is off.
When I turn it on again it takes 10-15 minutes for all my music to load again.
My solution was to get a 2.5" external HDD that is always on, so as soon as I turn on my receiver, all my music is there and I can play it instantly without waiting for it to load.

Problem is...The playlists show up on my HDD, but they are empty!
I have narrowed the problem down to the "playlist format" option is missing under the "files & paths" options when I choose my HDD as a drive in MJ14.
When I choose my microSD or USB thumb drive, the "playlist format" option is back.
I can send the playlists manually to the HDD, but then they all show up twice.
They show up as an empty playlist with no content.
Then next to it, the playlist shows up from my manual transfer.
So I have every playlist 2x, 1 empty one and 1 full one.
It looks ridiculous and is driving me mad.

Here's the questions.
How can I add the "playlist format" option under "files & paths"?
Is this going to happen on MC too?
Is it a bug with my particular HDD?
If I buy another HDD is it also going to have this issue too?
I'm using an adata Nobility NH!3 500GB I got in 2013.
I'm not sure if I should buy MC, buy a new HDD or modify MJ14 so it works.
I don't get how the playlist format option shows up on all my devices, except the 500GB HDD.
The "re-sync if date modified has changed" also doesn't show up when I choose my 500GB HDD.
I assume I'm not the only one to experience this very annoying issue.

Thanks for reading and hopefully understanding my explanation.
I can send screen-shots if need be.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2019, 05:42:40 am »

I assume that when you say it takes 10-15 minutes to load your music, the USB thumb drive is plugged into the receiver, and it is the receiver loading its media server or similar that takes the time. A faster USB thumb drive may improve that. USB thumb drives don't take long to wake, but your receiver might take a while to load the media files it finds. So I'm a bit surprised a 2.5" external HDD improves the problem, unless it is just the transfer speed. In which case, a faster USB thumb drive will make a difference. But without knowing more about your Receiver (brand, model, capabilities) I can't be sure. Maybe having a powered 2.5" external HDD keeps the Receiver in a powered state, so it never forgets what media files are available.

Honestly though, I don't completely understand how you are using MJ14, if you are using Handheld Sync to sync media to your new 2.5" external HDD, then plugging that drive into your Receiver for playback. Whether you have a PC that runs MJ14 connected to your Receiver or not. I haven't been using JRiver products that long!

There have been improvements in Handheld Sync since MJ14, no doubt.
The playlists are probably empty on your 2.5" external HDD because the path in the Playlist includes a drive letter that is different to the drive letter used by the Receiver, or something like that. Many devices will only show records in a Playlist if they have access to the media files the Playlist points to. If the path is wrong, they don't show the media files.

MC25 has more Playlist Formats listed than earlier versions, and hence more control. For example, you can use relative paths in Playlists synced to a device, and hence avoid the problem described above.
MC25 shows the Playlist Format setting for hard drives as well as for microSD cards and USB thumb drives now. You can choose from 14 formats.

I've added answers to your questions in red. They are my best answers based on what you have said, and my knowledge of MC since version 18. I could be wrong on some bits, or misunderstood your situation.

How can I add the "playlist format" option under "files & paths"?
You can't. That was by design in previous versions. It is now included for Hard Drives automatically.

Is this going to happen on MC too?
No

Is it a bug with my particular HDD?
No

If I buy another HDD is it also going to have this issue too?
Yes, if you use it with MJ14.

I'm using an adata Nobility NH!3 500GB I got in 2013.
It might be time for an upgrade. Drives don't last forever. But as long as you have a backup of your files, I guess that is fine.

I'm not sure if I should buy MC, buy a new HDD or modify MJ14 so it works.
MC25 has a one month free trial period. Download it and try it out. I think it will solve your problems, once you learn the new functionality. There will be a learning curve even though you have been using MJ14, so you may need the whole month. There may be other issues, such as Windows XP no longer being supported, if you are running MJ14 on a 2010 PC.

I don't get how the playlist format option shows up on all my devices, except the 500GB HDD.
By design, that is how the software worked. Developers make assumptions. Things change. Assumptions need to change, and software as well.

The "re-sync if date modified has changed" also doesn't show up when I choose my 500GB HDD.
I'm not sure about that one. I thought that always showed up. Use the MC25 trial to check if it does now. Ask specific questions on the format once you have MC25 working, if you need to.

I assume I'm not the only one to experience this very annoying issue.
You might be the only one still using MJ14 and Handheld Sync!  ;) Plus the way you are loading up a HDD and then attaching it to a Receiver, if I have understood your situation, probably isn't that common these days.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2019, 11:27:13 am »

Thanks for your fast and very detailed reply.

I have a Yamaha RX-S601 home theater receiver.
It as a USB input on the front and more importantly plays FLAC.
I plugged my 500GB HDD into it and it worked, all my music shows up.
It looked ugly though, with a big cable sticking out the front and the HDD sitting on top of it.
It also wouldn't show the playlists. It has a playlist folder, but it's always empty.
So I got the adata S102pro 64gb USB thumb drive and loaded it with my FLAC music using MJ14.
The music would start right away after turning on the receiver, no waiting for it to load after receiver was off.
As soon as I turned on the receiver, all the music was there.
Looks much sleeker and works great, except playlists are empty too!
I assumed the Yamaha receivers software was to blame for missing playlists.
The receivers on screen menu is very dated too, no artwork, just plain text.
So then I plugged the USB thumb drive into a USB 3.0 plug on the back of my SONY XBR-65X900E TV from 2017.
The TV is hooked up with HDMI arc to my receiver, so the sound quality was the same as direct through the receiver.
After a few minutes, all the music loaded, and it all shows up onscreen with all cover artwork.
A much nicer interface than my Yamaha receiver, and...the playlists all show up and work! Amazing!
It sounds great and looks great and I can see my playlists, so thought I was set and had the solution.
But, when the TV was turned off, all the music was gone.
When I turn on the TV again I have to wait about 15 minutes for all the content to load again...very annoying.
So yet another problem.
So then I unhooked the USB thumb drive from the TV and plugged my 500GB HDD into the TV's USB 3.0 plug.
Everything loaded, except the playlists!
But, when I turn the TV off and on again, the music is still there.
No waiting to load the music, I can access it instantly as soon as I turn the TV on.
But I'm missing playlists and as I have now figured out it's due to the "files & paths" "playlist format" missing from MJ14.
I thought about getting a SSD hard drive and seeing if MJ14 allowed that to have the play list format, but of course it might go to sleep when the TV is off.
This whole nonsense would be solved if only my Yamaha receiver showed playlists, but it's always empty.
I hope you can understand my frustration. Everything I try has some issue with either playlists or loading.
I'm glad I've finally narrowed it down to the MJ14 software, and you've confirmed MC would solve this.
I'm going to try my friends SSD and see what happens first.
I'm assuming it will load playlists but go to sleep when TV is off.
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Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2019, 05:08:55 pm »

I was wondering how MJ14 removes the playlist format feature with my 500GB hard drive but allows it with smaller drives?
How does it do it?
Is it based on the size of the drive?
That's the only explanation I can think of.
Playlist format works on all the other drives I've tried, USB thumb, SD and MicroSD.
I'd be interested to try it on bigger versions of those to see what the cut off size limit is.
512GB SD and microSD cards exist but they are very expensive.
I wonder if it would allow them to have playlists.
When MJ14 was created bigger size SD cards didn't exist, so maybe it would still work.
I'm also curious as to why they decided smaller portable drive sizes are ok for playlists but bigger ones are not.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2019, 10:07:33 pm »

I never used MJ14 so I don't know why it isn't showing the "Playlist Format" option for your hard drive, but I don't think it would be based on size. I suspect it would be based on whether the HDD was seen as a removable drive when it was plugged into the PC that MJ14 runs on. You can check that by connecting the HDD to the PC and checking the HDD properties in Device Manager. If you populate the fields on the Volume tab of Properties. Is the Type set to Removable? It should also show "Policies > Quick Removal" set to disable write caching, so that the drive can be quickly removed without loss of data.

Basically, a USB thumb, SD and MicroSD cards would always be seen as removable media, while HDD may not. Although a USB HDD should be seen as removable.

I suspect that the TV takes a while to load the music because it is reading all the Cover Art from the files, for the nice display you like. It needs to read every file to do that, and I doubt it caches that information between power cycles. If the TV only goes into standby I would hope that it did remember everything and quickly display the Cover Art again, but on an Android TV such as that, what you are seeing is an App running on the TV. If you played music, then watch some TV, you would have switched Apps, so the TV wouldn't remember all that art. It would have to re-read them again. But your Adata S102pro 64gb USB thumb drive is supposed to support 100MB/s read speed, so it should be as fast as your Adata Nobility NH!3 500GB HDD. I don't know why the thumb drive takes a while to load your music and the HDD does take long. Strange.

Anyway, I could write a book on your options going forward. But I think there is a simple solution for you, without upgrading to MC25 or buying anything new:

Copy the contents of your S102pro 64gb USB thumb drive onto your Adata Nobility NH!3 500GB. Make sure that the directory structure is identical. i.e. If the music is all under \[Artist]\[Album]\ directories, and the Playlists are in the \Playlists\ directory of the root directory, they need to be in exactly the same structure on the HDD.

Then plug the HDD into your SONY XBR-65X900E TV and test. Because the HDD is faster than the USB drive, your music should load fast. Because you are using the exact same directory structure and files that the USB drive had, your Playlists should be found and loaded.


Let us know if that works for you.

PS: I don't know your level of PC skills, but all the issues with Playlists could probably be fixed by editing the Playlists saved to the HDD and USB drive to point to the correct location. I'm pretty sure that there would be Playlist files on both the HDD and USB drive, if you looked using a PC. Playlists usually only show up as existing, but empty, when they are pointing to the wrong location. As I said earlier, that can happen when HDD drive letters change and Playlist point to absolute file locations, including the drive letter. The hard part in fixing the problem that way is knowing what the Receiver and TV expect. Your TV, like mine (equivalent to a Sony XBR 65X930D), doesn't provide a lot of information about that in the manual. Although Sony could probably help.

PPS: I loaded up a small amount of music onto a USB thumb drive, and plugged it into my Sony TV. There was a very slight delay, but it loaded pretty quickly. As with you, artwork and Playlists showed up and worked. When I turned off the TV, which really means putting it into Standby, then turned it back on again the music and Cover Art was still there. I didn't see the slight delay I saw earlier. Your TV is a later model than mine, so should work at least as well. Maybe if I loaded a whole lots more music onto the drive I would see the delay you are seeing.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 06:42:33 pm »

My goodness you are wealth of information.
I'm going to try something you suggested and move the playlists manually over to the 500GB HDD.
I've exported them so they are stored under music now on my laptop.
MJ14 only lets me export one playlist at a time.
If I change them, they will only be changed in MJ14 and I'll have to export them again to the laptop to over ride the previous version.
I'm going to try things out and  will update.
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Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2019, 01:18:45 am »

I downloaded MC25 on September 1 2019 on a trial.
I've enjoyed using it for a month now and I intend to buy it.
It solves the annoying problem I had above with MJ14 not working with playlists on my 2.5" HDD.
I just extended my trial today October 1 2019.
The reason I haven't purchased yet is the playlists that now sync with my 2.5"HDD show up several times.
Most playlists show up on my TV screen 4 times.
3 are empty playlists with no content or artwork and then 1 real playlist
It takes me a long time to scan through them because their are so many empty ones.
I have over 100 playlists, but it shows up as over 400 because 3 empty ones are between the full ones.
The playlists are fine when seen on my laptop, but they are 3 or 4 multiples times on my TV screen.
Please see the TV screen shots.

If it's just numbers in the title it shows up 4x, 3 empty 1 full.
See "1987" which has 3 empty playlists and 1 full playlist.
It's the same for all other year playlists.

If anyone has an idea as to how I can see each playlist only once and not 3 empty and 1 full playlist I'm listening.
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Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2019, 01:21:53 am »

If I have a playlist with numbers and letters in the title, it only shows 3 empty playlists and no full ones.

See "1980's Soundtracks" has 3 empty playlists.
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Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2019, 01:23:14 am »

If I have a playlist with only letters in the title, it shows 2 empty playlists and 1 full one.

See "Bruce Hornsby & The Range" has 2 empty playlists and 1 full one.

You can see the next playlist is the same.

Every play list I have is replicated as empty 2 or 3 times.
So even though I have over 100 playlists, it shows up as over 400 with about 300 empty playlists.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2019, 07:32:17 am »

I suspect with all your previous testing that multiple copies of Playlist files have been put onto your 2.5" HDD, some of which were empty as per previous posts.

Connect the HDD to your computer and have a look at the Playlist files on it. You may have to look in more than one folder to find them all. Depending on whether you have changed Playlist names in the past or not, you may be able to see all copies of the files, and may be able to tell which ones are empty and which have contents based on the file size, or by viewing the contents.

If you can do that, delete the empty Playlists. Then plug your HDD back into the Receiver and see if all the duplicates have disappeared.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2019, 10:47:12 am »

Playlists only show up once on the drive and on MC25.
Everything looks fine when plugged into my laptop.
But multiple times on the TV and some missing...very annoying.
I wiped the HDD and formatted it before syncing again with MC25.
The multiple playlists still showed up.
I'm stumped.
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Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2019, 11:28:05 am »

Could I play the files on my laptop using the JRiver app if I download it on my TV?
It's a SONY TV with android.
I previously tried playing things through my TV using windows media player but it was agonizingly slow.
If I download the JRiver app onto my TV will all my files and playlists from MC25 show up on my TV through the app?
MY TV  and laptop are hard wired into my router with ethernet.
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JimH

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2019, 12:23:49 pm »

You can use your Sony TV as a DLNA Renderer.  MC on Windows can play to it.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DLNA
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Will N. Dowd

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2019, 01:04:25 pm »

Yes I've just done that, but with my YAMAHA RX-S601 receiver.
So I'm very happy to say I turned on DLNA on MC25 have added my receiver and it works!
I can play all my music through my receiver across the room and control it on my laptop via MC25.
Best of all it's instantaneous play, skip and stop, no delays.
My laptops, TV and receiver are hard wired into my router and my music is all in FLAC so I'm getting the best quality I can.
I had previously tried this network playback with MJ14 and windows media player but it was so slow to respond I gave up.
MC25 is instantaneous control and the receiver even turns on from off when I choose it on MC25.
I honestly feel like a new man. No more updating HDD's and plugging them in again and waiting for them to load nonsense.
MC25 volume controls the receivers volume, although strangely the 0-100 volume control on MC25 is out of sync with the 0-97 volume control on my receiver. When MC25 is at 75, the receiver shows 60. I assume nothing can be done about this.

Thanks so much for all your help and time reading and replying to my messages.
I'm still recovering from the fact this works and I won't have to deal with any of the incredibly annoying issues I had with my USB HDD's.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Does MC have Playlist Format Missing too on 2.5" HDD's?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2019, 06:19:41 pm »

Excellent that you got DLNA working and are happy with it.  8)
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner
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