Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[stewart_pk]

Since then I have virtually given up using a HTPC and now use JRiver as a database and server to stream over DLNA to my 4k Blu-ray player (itself hardly ever used to play discs anymore). This was precipitated by my increased viewing of 4k HDR, which I found troublesome from my HTPC.

I find 4K and 4K HDR troublesome from my HTPC and I think JRiver MC and other software players are looking old because of how easy it is to get 4K and 4K HDR from other cheaper than HTPC sources.

[tij]

I find 4K and 4K HDR troublesome from my HTPC and I think JRiver MC and other software players are looking old because of how easy it is to get 4K and 4K HDR from other cheaper than HTPC sources.

You need minimum hardware to do 4K HDR on HTPC ... while HDR can be pass through for TV to process (assuming TV support HDR) ... HTPC has to do chroma upscaling from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 ... and for 4K that’s quite intensive ... so NVidia 1060 with 4GB of ram or equivalent AMD is a minimum it seems

With 8K on our doorsteps ... that requirements just went up ... as now on top of chroma upscaling ... need to additionally scale 4:4:4 4K to 8K (I don’t have 8K TV ... so no idea what’s that minimum is)

[rolf_eigenheer]

This.  With a phone app with "pinch and zoom".  I've tried all JRiver handheld apps and none are very good with photos (IMO).  For the desktop, MC is great for photo management, but when I want to search my photos remotely with my phone, I use Synology DSPhoto... as all my media (music, video and photos) are on my DS.  I think expanding photo management is definitely "big picture".  Maybe too big as you're probably thinking Google or Apple has that covered.  But not for those who want their photos kept private.

Here I am with you. The various handheld applications do not make a consistent impression. JRemote does almost anything I expect. Except playback images on the local device. But before fixing this, a new app is built. An app which cannot connect to media library...  At least this was my finding.

[DrKNo]

I think you might want to consider positioning MC in the homebrew/hacker/home automation scene more. You have actually built an excellent foundation for this with MCWS and the ability to install JRiver painlessly on a Raspberry Pi. I honestly don't think that there is similarly powerful tool to manipulate and script based on metadata in the world right now. This allows users to write nigh arbitrarily complex automation solutions. I don't even think that you would need to do much more development on that front.

Maybe you can create a community to gather and present MC-centered user projects somewhere. I find it hard to keep track of these in forum, and a nice, modern presentation might attract new customers.

[hoyt]

I think you might want to consider positioning MC in the homebrew/hacker/home automation scene more. You have actually built an excellent foundation for this with MCWS and the ability to install JRiver painlessly on a Raspberry Pi. I honestly don't think that there is similarly powerful tool to manipulate and script based on metadata in the world right now. This allows users to write nigh arbitrarily complex automation solutions. I don't even think that you would need to do much more development on that front.

Maybe you can create a community to gather and present MC-centered user projects somewhere. I find it hard to keep track of these in forum, and a nice, modern presentation might attract new customers.

I bet this would go over very well indeed.  I use HomeAssistant (in conjunction with Engen) and am very happy with how I can call a MCWS service from the pi I have running HA and automate MC into other house tasks.  I've thought about building a plugin from HA that makes it easier to call those MCWS services, but I'm not sure that I'm up to the task.

I think that gets to the "whole home" feeling that we're very close to with Media Center.

[JimH]

Logitech CEO says Harmony is becoming less important because of streaming.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/8/20905042/logitech-ceo-harmony-universal-remote-streaming-smart-tv-voice-assistant-bracken-darrell

[RoderickGI]

Logitech CEO says Harmony is becoming less important because of streaming.

I don't understand that logic. Even streaming, people who want to enjoy quality media are going to be using multiple devices, and need to control them all as if they were one device. That means using a Harmony, or equivalent.

Alexa may mean one voice command controls all devices, which just means Harmony has competition.

The people using one device, for example a Smart TV, aren't enjoying quality media. I guess that would be fine for watching the news... only I don't do that any more.

[dtc]

I don't understand that logic. Even streaming, people who want to enjoy quality media are going to be using multiple devices, and need to control them all as if they were one device. That means using a Harmony, or equivalent.

Alexa may mean one voice command controls all devices, which just means Harmony has competition.

The people using one device, for example a Smart TV, aren't enjoying quality media. I guess that would be fine for watching the news... only I don't do that any more.

Watching Netflix and other services on a Smart TV means a lot of people no longer need a DVD/BluRay Player. Android TV broadens the options even more. 

I have programmed remotes (originally Prontos and mostly Universal (URC)) for many people, but many of them have stopped using the remotes in favor of voice remotes, including Comcast and Alexa.   In my new second home, I just use my Comcast voice remote, Alexa and a tablet.  Even the receiver and Blu-Ray manufacturers provide a tablet control app.  I still love my customized remotes, but they are hardly the future.

[RoderickGI]

True, but if you want decent audio for movies on Netflix, you want to have a Receiver/Amplifier/DAC etc. It would hardly seem worthwhile having HD Netflix otherwise.

I only use a TV, Receiver, PC and speakers now for media consumption. As long as Alexa starts all of those when I saw "Watch TV", fair enough. But that will require IR Blasting for some time to come, until all devices can be controlled via Alexa and a network.

I suspect there will be a steady market for Harmony remotes until all devices are network and voice control aware. Maybe they will just get replaced by Smartphone Apps though.

[dtc]

Increasingly I see Sonus systems with a sound bar, sub and, maybe, rear speakers rather than a receiver system. With that, turning the TV on fires up the Sonus system. Then, for music, you control your Sonus system with your tablet or Alexa. My MC library becomes the source for the Sonus system, not the playback system.  And Spodify and Tidal and Amazon Music increasingly become the source.

Harmony built their business on relatively simple systems, not systems like yours or mine. Those people are increasingly using Sonus, Smart TVs, Alexa etc., which eats into Harmony's business.  Without a Blu-Ray player, people just do not need a Harmony remote.

IR remotes are still the best for sophisticated systems. But, the lower and mid-range folks are just not as interested in the remote anymore. It no longer controls everything, so they use the cable remote, Alexa and their tablets.  How does the average user control Spodify, Amazon Music, Tidal, Sonus with a Harmony?  Once you cannot do everything with the one remote, it changes the game.

I have 2 fully tricked out 7.1 systems, with dedicated 7.1 amps, etc. And a 2 channel system with tube equipment and a nice DAC. And a vinyl system.  And the lights are controlled by the remote. Popcorn popper is still manual, however. Those type of systems deserve  a dedicated remote, although I would argue that Harmony is not the best for that type of system.  But we are not the norm.

[Harroun4]

Please, can I make a management suggestion. I have been a user since version 20 I think it was. Have made a number of suggestions. I get this feeling that most of them fall into a black hole. You have the developer section now. But I am thinking of for a starter to break things up to categories, music, video and photos. Have an assigned moderator to each who is "really into" and knowledgeable that subject. IE: for music someone who plays at least an instrument, knows the different intricacies between pop, rap and classical. Each has different needs.

I have a pretty good feeling of the management difficulties with all you are trying to accomplish. With this what I think would be a better interface between user and programer should improve over all satisfaction. Perhaps each group should have a list of suggestions, problems that are being acted on now. A secondary list of what is being considered.

If this hits a sensitive note, I believe that more input could produce amazing results.

Regards, Harroun

[Verne]

First, kudos for a great program.

But, I second all the complaints about the "documentation" for JRiver. It is its major failing. IMHO there is no excuse for not having a single PDF or single location that documents all aspects of the program, in a logical, functional, and complete order. You know, like the manuals of old -- the way documentation should be. Having to wade through forums looking for a single nugget of information is quite frustrating and a big waste of time.

I know, nobody likes to do documentation. It's boring and tedious and can be very time consuming, and it's hard to keep it up to date. But it's also necessary, especially for as complex a product as JRiver is coming to be. Rather than release new features, just spend the time on good documentation. I'll bet you'll increase your sales from that alone.

As far as other features, for me personally, I only care about getting the best sounding audio possible. I mostly use Windows, and some Linux too, mostly Raspberry PI. As long as JRiver keeps up to date on the technical side of having the highest quality audio possible for these platforms, then I'm a customer. If not, I move on. I personally have no use for all the other multi-media stuff and mostly ignore it. I realize I'm probably in the minority here.

[grewterd]

Ok, I'll bite.

Speaking from my own personal perspective, there are lots of competing products that offer 10 foot interfaces (AppleTV, Roku, etc).  Theater View needs to be improved and made slicker, with better view building.  The way a user has to learn to build theater views is dreadful.  Along with that, networking capabilities and compatibility need to be augmented, so that everything networking related is easier, so it is easier for a user to make MC their home media hub.  MC is capable here, but the user experience lags.

Where you've really blown it is in documentation.  Over the last two months, I've demo'd MC to over nearly 100 people at Audio society meetings.  I think two people have bought it.  Everyone else complained the learning curve was "impossible" and that there was basically no documentation.  Many people contacted me weeks later saying they'd tried the program, but it was just too hard to make use of its features and that without documentation they were stymied, so they were giving up.  The fact is, the documentation and on-line help situation for MC is a joke, a bad one, and you lose sales over it.

I know I've made the argument before that documentation is important, and that you don't care and believe differently.  But you asked, so I'm telling you.

Best wishes,

Will

I really love MC. I started back in version 10. That was back before FLAC support (for the longest time I could not recall why I encoded my stuff in APE until I installed MC10 and then it dawned on me)! Picked back up at version 21 and upgraded to universal when Linux support arrived and have upgraded to every version since (included just now to version 26). So, I love your product and want to see it become better, more functional, easier to use and grow your user base.

I could not agree more on Will's comments regarding documentation. I barely scratch the surface of what MC can do. I use it to play music and once in a while, stream OTA TV via my HD Homerun. I'd love to do more with it, but I get stuck, frustrated and just give up. The documentation doesn't help me, it's confusing, difficult to follow, there are no steps in many cases (sorry, I'm a step follower) and lack examples. I have trouble finding help in the forums as well. I think MC would get a lot more customers if the documentation were better. I have friends that I've shown MC to, they try it, get confused, and give up and go back to Music Bee or Foobar because they are free and "good enough". Sigh.

Perhaps a YouTube channel (Instagrunt? dunno, don't use that) with instructional videos would be useful. You could do live streams with Q&A sessions after the presentation. Example subject: Organize and stream your movies/TV shows via your HTPC with MC.

I hope this is helpful.

[Absinthe]

Perhaps a YouTube channel (Instagrunt? dunno, don't use that) with instructional videos would be useful. You could do live streams with Q&A sessions after the presentation. Example subject: Organize and stream your movies/TV shows via your HTPC with MC.

I hope this is helpful.

Please keep the docs off social media sites.  I work very hard to stay the hell away from Facebook, Instagram and Twitter and will absolutely walk away from MC if documentation is only placed there

[JimH]

Please keep the docs off social media sites.  I work very hard to stay the hell away from Facebook, Instagram and Twitter and will absolutely walk away from MC if documentation is only placed there

You don't have to worry.

[Absinthe]

I was killing time on the interweb this morning waiting for the caffeine to kick in when I ran across this writeup:  https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/roon-vs-jriver-clash-of-the-titans-r764/,

I only casually follow audiophilestyle as a lot of the users are either sonically gifted with the ability to hear things I cannot or economically gifted to be able to afford things I cannot; either way, the average writer often exists in a world I do not.  Having said this, the article above was quite interesting.  To give credence to this I confess that I tried Roon several years back, probably about the time the actual article was written; but rather than attempt to color the article with my opinions one way or another, I will only comment that the article is an interesting read and indicates the successes and shortcomings of MC from a more commercial perspective.  Since we're embarking on a new build and suggesting which path (or paths) to follow going forward, this might be good fodder for discussion?

[jachin99]

Gaming.  The web archive has thousands of free to play games that run in a web browser for instance.  Gaming is direction that everyone else has really abandoned but maybe something like what is offered via the web archive would be a simple to way to implement new capabilities into mc

[michael123]

I can say from what I see happening with my family and friends -

Downloading of content - dead thing.

Audio - that's either youtube or Spotify. I personally use Premium Spotify in the car and while exercising.
Audiophiles without exceptions moved to Roon +Tidal - that's giving them a combined access to their local library and the new content, while using unified UI

Video - Netflix (my family also uses it), some I know use Amazon

People love the quality of JRiver sound engine, why not to leverage it?

1) If JRiver would offer a Roon-compatible endpoint (Roon Ready), similar to the Roon-certified streams (or like HQPlayer)
2) Native streaming from Spotify and Netflix. i don't understand if HW players could do it, why can't you?


That's not something though you aren't aware of, you just don't want to go this route, and that's a pity

[Hendrik]

2) Native streaming from Spotify and Netflix. i don't understand if HW players could do it, why can't you?

Because those companies don't care to allow this. Its not on us, its on them.

[michael123]

Because those companies don't care to allow this. Its not on us, its on them.

Why HQplayer can work as Roon endpoint?
Why every streamer now supports Spotify, Roon, Qobuz?

Is this a personal issue?
I honestly can't understand

Roon has a partnership program, if every, even a very low-volume HW manufacturer, what we may call 'boutique', can participate, why not JRiver?

[JimH]

Please read this:
Why Streaming Struggles

None of the services make money.  With Amazon HD out now, it's very likely that at least one of the three you mention will be gone within six months.

[RoderickGI]

2) Native streaming from Spotify and Netflix. i don't understand if HW players could do it, why can't you?

This one is easy, and Hendrik's answer was a bit too concise. 

Hardware players are allowed to add streaming of Spotify and Netflix because they are a very controlled environment, where the capability to stream is either in the hardware itself, or in controlled versions of firmware.

Streaming companies know that if they allow streaming to software running on a PC, which is not a controlled environment, someone will work out how to capture the stream in full resolution, thus pirating all the media. Actually I think the hardware manufacturers wouldn't care, but the owners of the media, and more commonly the middlemen in the labels, publishers and distribution companies, will not accept that risk, and will only licence to controlled hardware.

[thorsten]

In general, I agree with a lot that was previously mentioned. My 2 cents:

I have friends with MC and without MC, these even think that playback with pc is crap.
And why? because of the look!
(My friend with MC is just using the windows explorer for sorting, as he has no tags and therefore it is easier for him to find and sort songs....)
But, when I showed them the theatre view with the mods of Lepa and Moe, they were blown away and really changed their view on MC!

Therefore, point 1:
- make these theatre views possibilities easy available (with a theme/template/wizard?)

I use 4 Raspis thoughout the house, because I really start hating my Sonos system as it got more and more regulated.

I thought about MC, but the gave Volumio a try. And it is acceped by the family. Why?
- easy setup-wizard: 5 steps and it is set up, including the library
- spotify.... (this is a point I don't understand: volumio is for free and they managed to get Spotify working. How do they do it?)

So, point 2:
- make setup wizards

Thanks,
Thorsten

[Hendrik]

(this is a point I don't understand: volumio is for free and they managed to get Spotify working. How do they do it?)

If you make a business, and you do stuff not officially condoned, you get sued.

If you make a free open-source project, and do "unofficial" stuff, they typically just complain and make you remove it at worst, because they know there is no real money to get there.

This is the big difference why some free projects have more freedom to offer not-officially-condoned support for things, while a business has to be really careful about such things.

[michael123]

Sonore uses this library in their projects (rendu etc.)
https://github.com/librespot-org/librespot

[michael123]

If you make a free open-source project

The library I quoted requires Spotify Premium - Paid account

[JimH]

Spotify is losing about 100 million euros a quarter.
https://investors.spotify.com/financials/default.aspx

[Hendrik]

The library I quoted requires Spotify Premium - Paid account

That is irrelevant, look at for example this quote from the library you linked:

Disclaimer
Using this code to connect to Spotify's API is probably forbidden by them. Use at your own risk.

Using an unofficial and unlicensed client is a risk that can result in serious legal issues.

[michael123]

That is irrelevant, look at for example this quote from the library you linked:
Using an unofficial and unlicensed client is a risk that can result in serious legal issues.

How difficult is to develop a plugin for JRiver for a software engineer with 20+ yrs of experience (C/C++/assembler/Java) ?
Do you have an SDK I can look at? Preferably taking some similar content source plug-in as base

I basically primarily need a facility to import their dynamic playlist, rather than to stream mp3.
For streaming I prefer using my local library

[whoareyou]

How about improvements to android and iPhone apps?  Gizmo is ok.   I haven't used the JRemote app. Perhaps I need to try that.

To me, that Android phone version of JRiver doesn't make sense.  I just don't see a JRiver server with a large feature set being installed on my phone. 

Android version for Shield?  That makes more sense to me.

My big picture would be improving lightweight clients for ease of use and appearance/functionality.

I'd prefer to see one phone app - either paid or free so that development can concentrate on that one app.

[JimH]

Split What People Want

[margolbe]

Please read this:
Why Streaming Struggles

None of the services make money.  With Amazon HD out now, it's very likely that at least one of the three you mention will be gone within six months.

Neither did Amazon when it started out.

According to RIAA figures streaming is the predominant source of music revenue.  Streaming is going nowhere.  There may be consolidation but it will continue to be the main player in music.

Given this, I wish JRiver would support high quality streaming services like Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music HD.  I still like JRiver interface, although I also use Roon and Audirvana. 

[Awesome Donkey]

Given this, I wish JRiver would support high quality streaming services like Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music HD.

If you do a search of the forums, you'll see at least Tidal and Qobuz isn't likely. And it seems only Amazon Music HD if Amazon approaches JRiver and pays for the integration.

For example here's a recent topic discussing this: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,125509.0.html