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[Rizlaw]

My DAC is a W4S DAC-2 V2se fully able to playback DSD 256 (DSD4x in JRiver) in Linux. I have no problem doing this with HQPlayer version 3 or 4 (although, I must admit, HQP's setup is far more complicated).

JRiver DSD over DOP (1x) and 2xDSD (128) work OK, but switching to 4xDSD is a no go -- nothing but silence with a relatively meaningless error message box (image attached). It's not an end of the world thing for me, but I'd like to know why it doesn't work. The JRiver Wiki/manual doesn't offer any helpful insight on the problem.

[bob]

My DAC is a W4S DAC-2 V2se fully able to playback DSD 256 (DSD4x in JRiver) in Linux. I have no problem doing this with HQPlayer version 3 or 4 (although, I must admit, HQP's setup is far more complicated).

JRiver DSD over DOP (1x) and 2xDSD (128) work OK, but switching to 4xDSD is a no go -- nothing but silence with a relatively meaningless error message box (image attached). It's not an end of the world thing for me, but I'd like to know why it doesn't work. The JRiver Wiki/manual doesn't offer any helpful insight on the problem.

Is that a USB DAC?

[Rizlaw]

Yes. It also has I2s, XLR, BNC, Coax and Toslink, but USB is the only surefire way to get DSD4x.

BTW, as I write this, I'm currently playing DSD 256 (DoP) via HQPlayer perfectly.

[bob]

Yes. It also has I2s, XLR, BNC, Coax and Toslink, but USB is the only surefire way to get DSD4x.

BTW, as I write this, I'm currently playing DSD 256 via HQPlayer perfectly.

Sorry I don't know what HQPlayer is.
At any rate, are you playing a DSD4x file or upsampling?

[Rizlaw]

I'm upsampling CD 16/44.1 flac files. I have a very few true DSD files.

HQPlayer link: https://www.signalyst.com/index.html

I added the HQPlayers settings I have, it may or may not help.

[bob]

Is it possible your DAC only supports 4xDSD in Native DSD, not DoP mode?

[DJLegba]

This is not something I ever do, but I just tested and confirmed that the 64-bit Windows version has no trouble converting to DSD4x.

[bob]

Interesting, my iFi DAC which claims to only support 2xDSD supports 4xDSD but not in DoP mode so I see the same thing as you.
Will look at adding native DSD output modes for Linux in MC26.

[Rizlaw]

Is it possible your DAC only supports 4xDSD in Native DSD, not DoP mode?

Short answer is no. According to Wyred4Sound's website and manual the DAC-2v2SE supports up to DSD256 and, from my actual usage, DoP as well up to 256 using HQPlayer versions 3 and 4 (see my earlier post above with jpg of my HQPlayer settings.

[bob]

Ok, can you get a log file?
Start Logging just before attempting playback at 4x then stop right after and email it to bob (at) jriver (dot) com.
Thanks.

[Rizlaw]

Ok, can you get a log file?
Start Logging just before attempting playback at 4x then stop right after and email it to bob (at) jriver (dot) com.
Thanks.

Log file emailed to you as requested.

[bob]

Log file emailed to you as requested.

What I see is that 4xDoP requires a sample rate set of 705600 to get 11289600 hz (16 bit sample packed into 24 bit word) and that doesn't appear to be supported by your DAC as far as ALSA is concerned.

DSD direct doesn't require setting that high of a rate because it's packed 32 bit big endian which means the sample rate set is 1/2 of what it is in DoP mode in this case 352800.

I have no idea what your other program is doing. Perhaps you can check the log from it. It's got some odd looking setting 48k dsd checked which makes no sense to me.

I've updated the alsacap program enclosed with MC to take into account sample rates > 384k. Enclosed the 64 bit version here as an attachment which you can set as executable and run in a terminal as the MC user.

[Rizlaw]

I downloaded your zip file. I was somewhat unclear about your instructions on how to use it, so I opened a terminal and ran the file as follows:

Code: [Select]

./alsacap
On completion, the terminal output was:

Code: [Select]

*** Scanning for playback devices ***
Card 0, ID `NVidia', name `HDA NVidia'
  Device 3, ID `HDMI 0', name `HDMI 0', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2..8 channels,  32000..192000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE, S32_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
  Device 7, ID `HDMI 1', name `HDMI 1', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2..8 channels,  32000..192000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE, S32_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
  Device 8, ID `HDMI 2', name `HDMI 2', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2 channels,  32000..48000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
  Device 9, ID `HDMI 3', name `HDMI 3', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2..8 channels,  32000..192000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE, S32_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
Card 1, ID `X2', name `X-SPDIF 2'
  Device 0, ID `USB Audio', name `USB Audio', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2 channels,  44100..768000 sample rate range, sampling rates 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000 Hz
    Sample formats: S32_LE, SPECIAL, DSD_U32_BE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
Card 2, ID `converter', name `Schiit Jil A to D converter'
Card 3, ID `Interface', name `32bit 384kHz Dsd Interface'
  Device 0, ID `USB Audio', name `USB Audio', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2 channels,  32000..384000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000 Hz
    Sample formats: S32_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'


Card 3, ID `Interface', name `32bit 384kHz Dsd Interface' is the Wyred4Sound DAC-2v2se.

I then ran MC25 with the DSD2x option and it worked fine showing DSD128 on my DAC.
Then I ran MC25 with the DSD4x option and got an error about 96k/24 bit and no output.

I also should note that when running the HQPlayer program as per the settings noted in my earlier posts on the matter, HQPlayer shows a DoP4x conversion as per the attached jpeg. As you can see HQPlayer is upsampling the 44.1k/16 bit FLAC file to a 6.144Mhz rate as opposed to MC25 which appears to use 11.xMhz, which, as you noted, is beyond the DAC-2v2se capabilities.

[bob]

I downloaded your zip file. I was somewhat unclear about your instructions on how to use it, so I opened a terminal and ran the file as follows:

Code: [Select]

./alsacap
On completion, the terminal output was:

Code: [Select]

*** Scanning for playback devices ***
Card 0, ID `NVidia', name `HDA NVidia'
  Device 3, ID `HDMI 0', name `HDMI 0', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2..8 channels,  32000..192000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE, S32_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
  Device 7, ID `HDMI 1', name `HDMI 1', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2..8 channels,  32000..192000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE, S32_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
  Device 8, ID `HDMI 2', name `HDMI 2', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2 channels,  32000..48000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
  Device 9, ID `HDMI 3', name `HDMI 3', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2..8 channels,  32000..192000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE, S32_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
Card 1, ID `X2', name `X-SPDIF 2'
  Device 0, ID `USB Audio', name `USB Audio', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2 channels,  44100..768000 sample rate range, sampling rates 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000 Hz
    Sample formats: S32_LE, SPECIAL, DSD_U32_BE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
Card 2, ID `converter', name `Schiit Jil A to D converter'
Card 3, ID `Interface', name `32bit 384kHz Dsd Interface'
  Device 0, ID `USB Audio', name `USB Audio', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2 channels,  32000..384000 sample rate range, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000 Hz
    Sample formats: S32_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'


Card 3, ID `Interface', name `32bit 384kHz Dsd Interface' is the Wyred4Sound DAC-2v2se.

I then ran MC25 with the DSD2x option and it worked fine showing DSD128 on my DAC.
Then I ran MC25 with the DSD4x option and got an error about 96k/24 bit and no output.

I also should note that when running the HQPlayer program as per the settings noted in my earlier posts on the matter, HQPlayer shows a DoP4x conversion as per the attached jpeg. As you can see HQPlayer is upsampling the 44.1k/16 bit FLAC file to a 6.144Mhz rate as opposed to MC25 which appears to use 11.xMhz, which, as you noted, is beyond the DAC-2v2se capabilities.

Just as a note, I see that DAC doesn't support direct DSD (the one on Card 1 does appear to, output format DSD_U32_BE and supports the higher sample rates).
So for DoP the key appears to be the math. I can't see how HQP comes up with that sample rate.
MC's math is correct, the iFi DAC I'm using has a colored LED to show the current sample rate and it's the correct colors for both 1x and 2x DSD.

[Rizlaw]

O.K.

My manual states the DAC-2v2se supports DSD256, but its not exactly clear if that's only via DoP or direct DSD as well. I'll send them an email to clarify this point.

In the meantime DoP/DSD2x is more than sufficient for experimenting. I don't really hear any significant improvement in Redbook PCM via DoP. IMO, up sampling Redbook audio doesn't provide any additional resolution apart from adding alot of extra zeros and possibly allowing for a gentler analog filter.

[Rizlaw]

Bob,

I sent an email to Wyred4Sound regarding this issue. None other than E.J. Sarmento, top dog of Wyred4Sound, replied.

He said that the DAC-2v2SE is designed to accept NATIVE DSD256. MC25's DSD4x setting (or DoP256) is not supported because the DAC only goes up to 384K and as you previously indicated DoP256 math requires a higher sampling rate. So for all those who have my DAC (or similar DACs) be advised that you can only do DSD2x using JRiver's Media Center 25.

I believe this puts the issue to bed for now.

[bob]

Bob,

I sent an email to Wyred4Sound regarding this issue. None other than E.J. Sarmento, top dog of Wyred4Sound, replied.

He said that the DAC-2v2SE is designed to accept NATIVE DSD256. MC25's DSD4x setting (or DoP256) is not supported because the DAC only goes up to 384K and as you previously indicated DoP256 math requires a higher sampling rate. So for all those who have my DAC (or similar DACs) be advised that you can only do DSD2x using JRiver's Media Center 25.

I believe this puts the issue to bed for now.

Thanks for the feedback, I just have one more question for you. The sample formats for your X2 show  S32_LE, SPECIAL, DSD_U32_BE but for the DAC-2v2se on device 3 I see only  S32_LE supported.
MC requires DSD_U32_BE format support for direct DSD. Are you on the latest firmware? Perhaps their firmware needs to add that to it's supported format report?

[Rizlaw]

Bob,

Alas, the X2 is an outboard USB Matrix Audio S/PDIF converter. You can read about it here: https://power-holdings-inc.com/Matrix-X-SPDIF-2-Femto-Clock-&-Format-Converter-p137036425

I use it to simultaneously send PCM to both by W4S DAC-2v2SE via the I2s (HDMI) out and PCM to my Yggdrasil A1 via XLR out.

As far as I can tell from use, while it works perfectly for PCM signals, it doesn't work for DoP (even though it supports DoP output via the I2S output). I get no sound output at all when I set MC25 or HQPlayer to output DoP to the X2.

Playing with the dip switches on the unit doesn't improve the situation.

I am attaching 2 PDFs showing the DAC-2DSD signal lines and the Matrix showing its pin outs). I'm no EE, but it looks like they match so I don't know why DoP doesn't work. I probably should contact Matrix about this.

As for firmware, I don't believe there are any firmware updates to the Matrix unit. I don't think they provide for field or factory firmware upgrades on the device.

[Rizlaw]

As a final update on this issue I called the Matrix Audio USA distributor for info on the Matrix X-SPDIF converter and my Wyred4Sound DAC. I spoke with Arthur Powers, a really nice fellow. With respect to the Wyred4Sound DACs he said they do not follow the PS Audio format for I2S pin outs for the HDMI cable I2S connection between their converter and Wyred4Sound DACs. Matrix follows the PS Audio I2S standard. Arthur checked with someone very knowledgeable on this issue and sent me the following email:

"The Matrix X-SPDIF unit uses the PS Audio standard and it differs from the Wyred4Sound DACs in pins 1/3, and not pins 7/9. By changing the wiring to pins 1/3 you can correct the absolute polarity problem with PCM signals and the out-of-phase problem with DSD signals. If you only changed pins 7/9 it would not correct the absolute polarity problem with PCM signals although it would correct the out-of-phase problem with DSD signals, but with the secondary disadvantage of reversing the channels. Matrix's dipswitch, which simultaneously changes both the 1/3 and 7/9 wiring points, does not correct the out-of-phase problem with DSD signals and it reverses the channels."
​
So you need a HDMI cable that only reverses pins 1 and 3.

I have contacted "Cables To Go" for a quote on a custom made HDMI cable that follows the above recommendation. If it's not too expensive I will order it and see what happens and whether it allows me to get DSD4x with MC25.

Addendum: Heard back from Cable To Go: they don't make custom HDMI cables in US, they're only made offshore (i.e., China) in bulk. I also contacted Blue Jeans Cables and they said a cable could be made but it would cost $400.00 (no kidding). Their explanation was that the machines which make the cables have to specifically set up to insert the tiny wires into the correct pins, solder and mold the plastic and metal connector on to the cable ends so that the tight HDMI specs are maintained for the integrity of signal transfer.  To set up all this is what costs the money and according to Blue Jeans this is only requested by large contractors and the Government.

[Awesome Donkey]

Do note (in case you already don't know this), just in case you might be planning on using a HDMI cable from a PC connected to any sort of DAC, DSD won't work that way because it's not possible to get DSD over HDMI working from a computer to a DAC/receiver/etc. But if it's USB from a computer to the DAC, it should be fine.

[Rizlaw]

AD,

Thanks for the info. I am aware that standard HDMI cables are normally not intended for I2S Audio use, but that's not the setup I have (HDMI from PC to DAC). In my case, my Matrix X-SPDIF converter box is connected to my PC via the usual USB cable. The Matrix box has multiple digital outputs for coax, toslink, XLR and I2S. All of the digital outputs function simultaneously allowing the user to send the same digital signal (correctly translated for the output) to multiple DACs. It can be thought of as a sophisticated digital signal splitter/translator. In my case XLR to my Schiit Yggdrasil, which doesn't support DSD (via a Madrigal digital XLR cable) and I2S to my Wyred4Sound DAC (via Wireworld HDMI cable - decent stock HDMI cables work too). For PCM data this all works fine and as intended. However, for DoP-DSD over HDMI / I2S, as noted in the posts above, Wyred's HDMI pin outs for pins 1 and 3 are not the same as PS Audio's I2S pin outs. My Matrix converter follows the PS Audio pin outs NOT the Wyred4Sound pin outs. Thus, while my Matrix converter can handle PCM over the HDMI / I2S connection to the Wyred DAC it can not handle the DoP/DSD signal.   

Since the companies that provide a digital I2S output on their equipment, using a standard HDMI cable, have not settled or agreed upon on a standard pin out scheme, problems like this arise. In my case it's not the end of the world because a simple USB cable connection from PC to DAC works just fine for both PCM and I2S/DoP/DSD.