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[Daydream]

This is more of a short story so let's see if I can keep it short. I have some questions after all.

Last time I touched a turntable was probably more than 25 years ago and there was no love lost since. But hey vinyl is popping back out from everywhere so let's give it a try. Mind you, I'm not an audiophile (which is why I write here, where I feel is a more balanced audience - read: I hope it'll take you guys 10 posts to chop me to pieces, as opposed to 2 posts; I have a healthy fear of posting on audiophile forums). There are a few things I can speak of in an informed manner about audio, but vinyl is not one of them. Vinyl is a funny guilty pleasure. I buy them for the art, like merchandise, 3 steps removed from calendars and tshirts. (wait... was that the sound of pitchforks?)

The problem started when I did hear a flac recording of a vinyl. It did sound different, pop, clicks and all. I liked it. Intrigued I bought a bunch of albums as opportunities presented. I still needed a turntable. So to marry a few things I was experimenting with, I got a Sony PSHX500 that can record directly into DSD format. Yeah, I've read it doesn't have the greatest cartridge, and it's difficult to change it and all that. Hey, I needed to start somewhere. BTW this is a $500 turntable that can be found on Amazon for $270 or so right now.

Set it up, put a new pressing of True Blue (yeah, that's Madonna; you can't scary me into listening to eclectic stuff that nobody can hum a few bars of ), started recording. Played the .dsf through MC (and a iFi Nano iDSD Black Label) and... nope, this is not it.

I said somewhere I'm gonna keep this short. Let's cut it abruptly: does one need to spend $2,500 and up (turntable, cartridge, phone stages, etc) to get a good recording off a vinyl, yes or no? As in the difference would be obvious.

Because what I got was a recording that was... unremarkable. It made me instantly wanting to reach for the DSP settings and this was a DSD recording and that implies switching to DOP, and complicate things. It didn't sound in any way good or bad, or "oooh, the sound of vinyl" or anything. It was all there but needed some serious DSP work after which it did sound nice, but somehow I had a feeling this would sound different. I'm not getting into "better than" disputes, that will remain subjective to me. Maybe it didn't sound 'vinyl' enough (fine... warmer) to me. This whole setup was not dumped from a truck and tried an uneven pavement. Even when I get into stuff outside my comfort zone I read a lot about it first. The turntable was set up right (balanced tonearm, etc).

Is this all a lie? Everybody is buying vinyl like me, for alternative, funny reasons, but not to listen to it serious style? Because if this setup sounds like that, what on Earth will that $99 turntable from under the desk at Barns & Noble will sound like? Sound of nails on chalkboard? Feel free to school me but keep it practical. Appreciate any insights.

[RoderickGI]

Is this all a lie?

Yes.

In My Humble Opinion.

[JimH]

We should make a "vinyl" DSP plug-in.

Great story.  Thanks.

[astromo]

Thanks for the post.

Good to read because it aligns with my expectation. FOMO is not my thing.

I'm resigned to the possibility/probability of getting a turntable purely because digital recordings in today's world are typically mastered hot. Vinyl has its practical limits, so if you're after dynamic range either get an original (or older) CD pressing before the Oasis Wonderwall revolution (devolution in my view) or, if your artist has produced music after the noughties, then get a vinyl pressing.

Some artists have decided to release (physically) in vinyl only. So, there's another reason to obtain a TT.

I reckon that any vinyl I get, will get ripped to digital straight away and then shoved back in the sleeve for archiving, hopefully never to be taken out again. We shall see.

[dtc]

Does vinyl sound different then digital? Yes - if you have the right equipment and the right ears.  Does a vinyl played on a low end turntable played through low end equipment sound different? Probably not. 

For example, I tried a $500 cartridge on a mid-range turntable with high end electronics and speakers.  I was not impressed. Upgraded to a $3,500 cartridge and WOW - yes there was a huge difference. And the setup sounded quite different than my digital setup played through the same electronics and speakers.  Now, not everyone would hear the difference. But, if you are sensitive to the differences, it is very obvious.

My experience is that you need to spend a lot more of a vinyl front end than on a digital front end to hear the differences.

Also, not everyone hears the difference. It depends on your ears and your listening experience.

By the way, the vinyl digitized by a high quality A/D and played through my digital setup sounds very much like the original vinyl. However, the 96 KHz file sounds much more like the vinyl that a 44 KHz file.

People can argue forever about these statements, but that is my experience.

The equipment is a Cary SLP-05 preamp, a Mark Levinson 432 amp and Sonus Faber Cremona speakers. The digital front end is MC feeding a Chord Hugo DAC. The analog front end is a VPI Scout, a Benz Micro Ebony TR cartridge and a Linn Linto phono preamp.  The less expensive cartridge was a Benz Micro Ace.

[TheShoe]

vinyl can have that beautiful warmth and analog sound to it.  closest i have come in the digital realm is with tube amps.   as much as i love the convenience of digital, i think vinyl still sounds the best - pops and clicks included.   hate to say it but it sounds “organic”

like the SFX of yesteryear vs the all digital effects of today.  i am soon to start down the vinyl road.   i will back up what i buy knowing it will never represent the actual record, but when i listen it will be dropping a needle on vinyl

[Gio300ZX]

Back in the '70s, a guy called Ivor Tiefenbrun from Glasgow (Scotland) upended the existing hi-fi canon: that you spent most of your budget on the speakers (because they were the hardest to make accurate in the sound chain). His thesis was (and you may recognise this from elsewhere) GIGO - so spend most budget on the source. Without a good signal, the rest of the chain won't perform to its max. Each link in the chain can't pass on information it doesn't get. And if the information isn't there in the signal, no matter how good your ultimate renderer / transducer, you'll never hear it.

Ivor T launched the Linn Sondek LP12 and it is still going strong - as is Linn's fully digital hi-fi. Not sure any other piece of kit would have lasted over 5 decades without offering something.

He also said (and as an ex-physicist, I'm still not sure about this) don't measure, listen. If it sounds better to you and your ears, then it is.

So the rule is (and I break this every time) listen first, then buy. Take your favourite album (whatever format) to the dealer and have a demo. If it doesn't sound better, don't buy. If they don't do demos, don't buy there.

I haven't linked anything here so you can search and read independently if you are so minded. FYI, I have a basic-spec LP12 from 1987 which has just gone for upgrade, a Meridian 500 series stack/speakers and (after much experimentation / listening) JRiver on 3 PCs and shedloads of flacs ripped with EAC and JRiver (and a  large shed of radio downloads).

I won't be definitive about which is "best". But I won't get rid of any of them: turntable, CD, server/streamer. Trust your ears!

[BillT]

Ivor Tiefenbrun was a snake oil salesman who copied someone elses turntable design and persuaded the gullible that there was some magic about his turntable that all the other turntables of the same design were worse. You can continue to sell something forever if there are enough mugs to buy it. Look at all the hideous and hideously expensive wrist watches that you can buy.

Of course he is right that if the source is bad you won't get good results, but it's pretty silly to spend disproportionate amounts on a turntable (unless you are a TT manufacturer, of course).

His firm were very late into the digital market after running a long, deceitful, campaign against digital. They finally saw the writing on the wall and started selling digital equipment.

The 'only listen' line is great if you want to sell something. Human ears are extraordinarily insensitive to many distortions and the human mind is extraordinarily receptive to suggestion, so having no comparative framework is a great way of selling mediocre product at a high price. You can see this in action throughout most markets.

I have owned a turntable since the late 1960s and still have one, largely for nostalgic reasons, although I've still got a few LPs which I haven't digitised and won't be released on CD. LPs can still sound very pleasant, which is remarkable considering how crude the technology is, but I wouldn't spend money on one now.

[HS12]

It took me a long, long time to get my vinyl set-up to a level that I was listening to the music rather than the kit and love the tactile experience of the physical media and the mechanics of the playback system.

That said digital is improving all of the time, storage being so cheap now that compressed lossy formats are no longer a necessity and can be played easily from a computer by installing a piece of software. Then if the noise of a full blown general purpose computer is a problem, that can be substituted for a dedicated audiophile computer running a minimal OS such as the Id Pi or Id NUC – all for far less than a decent MC cartridge.

All in all a turntable will still be viable decades from now unlike other fad formats like smart speakers that you pay for but never own as they can be bricked at anytime by the manufacturer without any recourse.

[slerch666]

Wait guys... you mean the crappy BT enabled turntable that I listen to with my $10 truly wireless earbuds won't make my vinyl sound good!? That's not possible!

I am not a vinyl fan.

I get that people loved the experience of actually you know, LISTENING to their music instead of making it background noise. For people who have that problem, sorry, you don't need a turn table you need focus. It's not like you can't critically listen to digital, we just treat it disposably.

For those looking for a better sound than the CD, well maybe you have something there but honestly, many of the recordings that have CDs come from the same masters. I still have my Metallica Death Magnetic vinyl and guess what? It's crushed to hell, the only difference is it is harder to tell because the pressing on vinyl doesn't seem to be as poorly handled. It's still crushed to crap.

For those trying to relive their childhoods, nostalgia is a ****ing ****. I hate it as it grips me for things like video games in stupid ways. I understand these folks and feel bad for them. lol If i tried to relive my childhood I would be listening to vinyl on an all in one play toy with tinny speakers. Pass.


And I know there are people that just prefer the medium. Good. I am glad there are people that get enjoyment from their music in whatever way they can or do.

The best part of the musical world today is  you can enjoy it however you want. If you want FLAC and Hi-Res, fairly low barrier for entry in terms of track price and hardware. Cheaper audiophile grade hardware today is getting closer to yesterday's super Hi-Fi equivalent in performance for a fraction of the price. It's a great time to be alive, to be able to put 100000 tracks on a black box, plug in a kick ass relatively inexpensive USB DAC, plug in some high quality headphones and just drift.

And it's kick ass if you want vinyl with the resurgence. Even if I don't understand those folks

[Gio300ZX]

There is no way Ivor Tiefenbrun / Linn should be categorised as a "snake oil salesman". The Linn Sondek LP12 was launched in 1972 and is still in production. Yes, there is "history" but that has been long resolved / debated. It's about as relevant as arguing about the BSA Bantam being a rip off of a DKW. The actuality is that Ivor T's work has led to one of the longest-running products in the world, let alone in the hi-fi world. Snake oil doesn't last that long.

I have a foot in 4 camps (and not enough feet ): vinyl, CD, digital, FM. My interest in hi-fi goes back to school in the '60s. I built/rescued/repaired stuff. Work got in the way so it sort of back-burnered. I went from my hard-earnt schoolday stuff via Pioneer PL12D (not bad at all), Sansui (quite good) to Linn LP12 + Meridian 500 (bloody good). I started in the era of "most budget on speakers" and have ended up in "most budget on source".

In the intervening period, I have heard some truly dreadful digital audio players, apps, servers and so on.

In the past few years, I have got back into the hi-fi scene simply to research, listen and enjoy. It kicked off with trying to find a good way to "do digital" and that's why I've been a JRiver customer for some years.

That led me to the idea of trying to digitise everything onto a big NAS in flac and stream that on my local network.

I even started to go through my vinyl to find the albums I had on CD or flac and stick them in a box for sale. Today, I reversed that and put them back in the vinyl collection. Why?

A few years ago, we moved to a home where I could put my audio stack in a good, listenable layout. So I started to listen to it more. My CD player broke so I researched how to get it fixed and that led to a forum for the brand. That led to upgrading / servicing all of those units. That prompted me to do the same with the Linn LP12. Plus build a specific media PC with JRiver MediaCentre and and a dedicated DAC.

This is all still a work in progress but my ears tell me so far that the upgrades let the system sound better - whether vinyl, CD, digital or FM. I will keep my vinyl, my CDs, use mp3s and flac rips, and listen to FM. The upgrades to my 1980s system have really worked for me. Trust your ears