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[dcm]

Hello
I am running MC26.

I have been using MP3tag to tag files purchased from online music vendors, before importing into JRiver. I have a number of custom tags and have set these up in JRiver.  All was working well until recently, with all the custom tags populated in MP3tag appearing in the tag panel in JRiver.

However, I have noticed recently that two of the custom tags (in particular, Artist Sort, and Album Artist Sort) are not being reflected in the JRiver tag window for files that I have recently uploaded, but remain visible for the older files.  All the other custom tags remain visible for all files. The information for the two missing custom tags appear as it should in the tag dump for each file.  I have tried re-importing.

Any ideas as to what may be going on?

Thank you

[dtc]

Hmmm.... Seems similar

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,125050.msg865931.html#msg865931

[dcm]

Thank you dtc

Will explore this thread to see if it solves the problem

[dcm]

Further to the above, I may have figured out something of what is happening, but it seems puzzling.  The problem affects two fields ALBUM ARTIST SORT and ARTIST SORT.  Let me focus on just one of these, since the issue seems to be the same for both.

I have a field ALBUM ARTIST SORT populated in MP3tag and a corresponding field ALBUM ARTIST SORT defined in JRiver.  The importing of the tags into JRiver went smoothly for some time. But recently the tag for ALBUM ARTIST SORT is not being captured in the JRiver tag window and the corresponding panes.  The JRiver tag dump shows that the tag information is being imported however.

Playing around today, I seem to have stumbled on what may be a clue to what is happening. I tagged some music files in JRIver itself and updated the tags in the music files from the library; the field ALBUM ARTIST SORT in the JRiver library was mapped to ALBUMARTISTSORT in the music files, that is, with no spaces between the three words.  (I verified this viewing by the tags using MusicBrainz Picard).

To confirm this, I created additional fields ALBUMARTISTSORT in MP3tag (and did the same for the other problem tag by creating ALBUMSORT). I populated these fields in MP3tag for an album for which tags had not been imported properly to JRiver.  I found that now the tags for ALBUMARTISTSORT were imported to ALBUM ARTIST SORT in JRiver. This seems  strange.  I wonder whether something happened when I upgraded from MC24 to MC26 some weeks back?

[RoderickGI]

See https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,125050.msg866311.html#msg866311

DCM, you have basically found the issue. However, you say it use to work. What changed? MC, your workflow, the external application you use for tagging?

[dtc]

Tag dump sees a tag ALBUM ARTIST SORT but import from tags does not import it into the library field ALBUM ARTIST SORT. Assuming there are no extraneous special characters luring in those names, there is an inconsistency in how MC is handling this tag/field.

The id3v2 and vorbis names for ALBUM ARTIST SORT are TSO2 and ALBUMARTISTSORT

My guess is that when MC added COMPOSER SORT and ALBUM ARTIST SORT the mappings  between tags and library field names and display names became inconsistent in their handling of spaces.  Before those changes, MC was not doing any mapping of them.  The fact that your ALBUMARTISTSORT tag imports into the  ALBUM ARTIST SORT library field supports that thinking.

For a flac file, which uses vorbis, you might also try creating a library field of ALBUMARTISTSORT and see if that populates from the ALBUM ARTIST SORT tag in the file.

It would be best to use a hex editor and go into the file and see what is really stored there. Then it would be easier to see what MC is recognizing and how it is mapping it to a library field and to a display name.

EDIT:  I do not see a MC defined [Composer Sort] or [Album Artist Sort] tag in manage library fields. It seems like a mapping of [Album Artist Sort] to TS02 or albumartistsort may have been added per Rod's link, but no actual library field by that name was added. So, if a user defines a field of [Album Artist Sort] it automatically gets mapped to albumartistsort in the vorbis tag in the file, even though the user has no way of knowing that. It seems like that makes it impossible to link a library field to a file tag of ALBUM ARTIST SORT, unless there is some MC magic that forces a library field to be tied to a specific file tag of a different name.  This basically orphans previous file tag values of ALBUM ARTIST SORT. To make them visible, I guess they would have to be changed to a file tag name of albumartistsort in another program to map them to a library field of Album Artist Sort.

Still a little mysterious to me.

[dtc]

I tried some experiments.

I created a user library field [Album Artist Sort] and it created a tag in the file of albumartistsort.   I did the same for [Artist Sort] and it created a file tag of artistsort. It clearly mapped my custom field to the vobis standard tag, dropping the spaces for the custom field name.

I created a user library field [X    Album    Artist    Sort] and it create a tag in the file of exactly the same name, with all the spaces present. So that still works when their is no mapping to standard vorbis names.

So, MC maps [Artist Sort] and [Album Artist Sort] to their vorbis standard names, even though you need to create the custom field names yourself.  I do not see any obvious way to create a library field name to link to a Artist Sort or Album Artist Sort tag in a flac file.

It does seem that the file tag data in Artist Sort and Album Artist Sort that MC used to write and still sees in tag dump are not longer available to the program. That probably changed when the new id3 and vorbis mappings were added.

[Matt]

I do not see any obvious way to create a library field name to link to a Artist Sort or Album Artist Sort tag in a flac file.

FLAC handles these fields and converts them to the standard naming:
Album Sort
Album Artist Sort
Artist Sort
Title Sort
Composer Sort

[dtc]

FLAC handles these fields and converts them to the standard naming:
Album Sort
Album Artist Sort
Artist Sort
Title Sort
Composer Sort

That is not what these users are seeing.  It looks like the albumartistort file tag connects to a library field of [Album Artist Sort] but a file tag of Album Artist Sort does not.  Album Artist Sort is not a standard vorbis name.

[Matt]

That is not what these users are seeing.  It looks like the albumartistort file tag connects to a library field of [Album Artist Sort] but a file tag of Album Artist Sort does not.  Album Artist Sort is not a standard vorbis name.

We tag using ALBUMARTISTSORT as the standard FLAC string if we find an "Album Artist Sort" field.

[dtc]

We tag using ALBUMARTISTSORT as the standard FLAC string if we find an "Album Artist Sort" field.

Agreed. The problem these users are having is prior to you implementing that convention about 2 years ago, people had custom library fields of [Album Artist Sort] which were written to the files as a tag of Album Artist Sort. That tag is still in people's files but there does not seem to be any way to access it.

[Matt]

Got it.

Next build:
Changed: In FLAC tags, we load from "Album Artist Sort" if no data is found in "ALBUMARTISTSORT" (because it could have data from before we standardized).

[dtc]

Got it.

Next build:
Changed: In FLAC tags, we load from "Album Artist Sort" if no data is found in "ALBUMARTISTSORT" (because it could have data from before we standardized).

Great. That should probably apply to any other tags you changed at the time. Composer Sort was listed in the release notes - 23.0.96. Not sure if there were any others.  Looks like Artist Sort may also be affected.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,122322.msg846744.html#msg846744

If you have those mappings, does it make sense to add them as standard library fields?

[Matt]

A little more complete now:
Changed: In FLAC tags, we load from "Album Artist Sort" if no data is found in "ALBUMARTISTSORT" (because it could have data from before we standardized).
Changed: In FLAC tags, we load from "Artist Sort" if no data is found in "ARTISTSORT" (because it could have data from before we standardized).
Changed: In FLAC tags, we load from "Composer Sort" if no data is found in "COMPOSERSORT" (because it could have data from before we standardized).

[dtc]

 

[dcm]

Thank you all

In response to the question from RoderickGI, the only thing that I can think of that changed was an upgrade from MC24 to MC26.

Since I posted on Tuesday, I created two new tags in MP3tag, namely  ALBUMARTISTSORT and ARTISTSORT and the corresponding entries in the Manage Library Fields tool of JRiver.  I have retained the corresponding tags with spaces (i.e. ALBUM ARTIST SORT and ARTIST SORT) in both programs.  It certainly is not an elegant solution and hopefully does not introduce any new complications.

Thanks again to all.

[dtc]

Once Matt implements his changes I think [Album Artist Sort] will work fine. For that,  mp3tag is writing albumartistsort to the file and, since the change in MC24, MC is now reading it as it should. The only issue is the legacy Album Artist Sort tag data in the file from before MC adopted the vorbis standard.    mp3tag is writing the same thing to the file whether you use the name with or without spaces. So, I would wait for the change and then just use the standard name with the spaces in MC.

[RoderickGI]

Also once the change is through you should be able to pick one version of the field/tag, populate it by copying from the other tags, if necessary, and then delete the unwanted tag. If you don't delete the incorrect tag, over time the two may become different, if you update via MC.

Just test everything works the way you want before deleting anything.

PS: I always believed the correct format was the names without spaces. Of course, the Display Name could have spaces, but the field/tag name in the file was without spaces.

[dtc]

PS: I always believed the correct format was the names without spaces. Of course, the Display Name could have spaces, but the field/tag name in the file was without spaces.

Yes, the vorbis standard for the file tag does not have spaces.

mp3tag lets you set the display name and the file tag. Unfortunately, MC does not let you set the file tag to use for library fields.