Topic: Using up to dsd512 (Read 3541 times)

littlegreenalien · « **on:** May 30, 2020, 06:27:28 am »

Anyone have output encoding at dsd516 (8x)? If you do, is working smoothly? I have a DAC that says dsd516 on it, but it sutters and skips. Can anyone explain how to fix this and do I need add something? I tried everything from converting to ASIO changes and haven't got it down yet. Help appreciated.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2020, 06:35:11 am »

Quote from: littlegreenalien on May 30, 2020, 06:27:28 am

Anyone have output encoding at dsd516 (8x)? If you do, is working smoothly? I have a DAC that says dsd516 on it, but it sutters and skips.

Your PC is probably not powerful enough to handle the on-the-fly 8xDSD conversion. DSD conversion is one of the most resource intensive tasks Media Center can do, and issues with skips and stutters is a sign that the PC simply isn't powerful enough to handle it.

Manfred · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2020, 07:07:35 am »

I have Bill Evans from 2xHD in DSD 512. My i3-8100 2C4T does DSD->PCM 24 bit/192kHz with ~20% CPU workload and without problems.

Does your DAC provide DSD 512 over DoP or native?

littlegreenalien · « **Reply #3 on:** May 31, 2020, 12:37:04 am »

Its a SMSL M400 DAC. The website says DSD 512 Native.

Manfred · « **Reply #4 on:** May 31, 2020, 03:52:34 am »

Then you should enable in Options->Audio: Bitstreaming: DSD and under Device Settings DoP off and select the appropriate device driver. If that does not work you have a driver problem I guess.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #5 on:** May 31, 2020, 06:05:41 am »

Even so, if you're using Output Encoding to convert everything to DSD512/8xDSD on-the-fly and it's skipping/stuttering, VERY likely indeed the PC doing the conversion is not powerful enough to handle it.

Try doing a benchmark (Help > Benchmark...) and posting the results here.

Quote

I have Bill Evans from 2xHD in DSD 512. My i3-8100 2C4T does DSD->PCM 24 bit/192kHz with ~20% CPU workload and without problems.

Modern i3 CPUs are pretty decent these days, so there's a very good chance it can handle that DSD > PCM conversion just fine.

littlegreenalien · « **Reply #6 on:** May 31, 2020, 06:26:56 am »

Benchmark

littlegreenalien · « **Reply #7 on:** May 31, 2020, 06:28:43 am »

Benchmark

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #8 on:** May 31, 2020, 06:44:18 am »

What kind of CPU are you using?

RD James · « **Reply #9 on:** May 31, 2020, 06:57:32 am »

Quote from: Manfred on May 30, 2020, 07:07:35 am

I have Bill Evans from 2xHD in DSD 512. My i3-8100 2C4T does DSD->PCM 24 bit/192kHz with ~20% CPU workload and without problems.
Does your DAC provide DSD 512 over DoP or native?

Conversion from DSD to PCM is not nearly as taxing as conversion from PCM to DSD512.
DSD512 to PCM is cutting down the frequency from 22.6 MHz to 192 kHz in your example.
PCM to DSD512 is a conversion from the source to 22.6 MHz.
And bit-streaming does not consume any resources since the DAC handles the processing.

The good news is that these super-high DSD sample rates only exist to try and bring DSD's 1-bit performance closer to that of a multi-bit format like PCM.

Note that DSD256 (11.3 MHz) is required to match the performance of 48kHz PCM.
It's a super-inefficient and wasteful format that is a relic from the '90s.
It's modern-day snake oil, just like all of the "high-res" audio formats companies are trying to sell you.

Stick to PCM and you won't have any of these problems.

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** May 31, 2020, 06:58:39 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on May 31, 2020, 06:05:41 am

Even so, if you're using Output Encoding to convert everything to DSD512/8xDSD on-the-fly and it's skipping/stuttering, VERY likely indeed the PC doing the conversion is not powerful enough to handle it.

That's likely to be the cause.

Also check to see what else you're running in the background, including antivirus.

You can just paste the text, not the screenshot.

littlegreenalien · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2020, 07:04:41 am »

i5-7200 CPU @ 2.50GHz 2.70GHz

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #12 on:** May 31, 2020, 07:08:15 am »

Quote from: littlegreenalien on May 31, 2020, 07:04:41 am

i5-7200 CPU @ 2.50GHz 2.70GHz

Now, does it work better if you're doing a conversion to DSD128 (2xDSD) or DSD256 (4xDSD) instead? If so, your CPU isn't powerful enough to handle a DSD512 (8xDSD) conversion on-the-fly.

littlegreenalien · « **Reply #13 on:** May 31, 2020, 07:16:09 am »

dsd256 is highest I can get it without stutters and static.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #14 on:** May 31, 2020, 07:22:30 am »

Quote from: littlegreenalien on May 31, 2020, 07:16:09 am

dsd256 is highest I can get it without stutters and static.

Yeah, that sounds like that's the limit, anything higher and the system can't handle it. No way around that I'm afraid other than newer, more powerful hardware, which can be expensive and may not be worth it.

Sticking with DSD256 (4xDSD) is probably the way to go here.

littlegreenalien · « **Reply #15 on:** May 31, 2020, 07:42:17 am »

Just curious, dsd256 to dsd516, how much of a difference would it do?

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #16 on:** May 31, 2020, 08:56:52 am »

Well, DSD256 is 11.3 MHz and DSD512 is 22.6 MHz, which is double. Look at RD James' diagrams above, it explains the differences quite well.

TheShoe · « **Reply #17 on:** May 31, 2020, 09:03:26 am »

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/

Nothing is as simple as it seems. jriver even gets a mention in this article.

happy reading

RD James · « **Reply #18 on:** May 31, 2020, 09:38:33 am »

Quote from: TheShoe on May 31, 2020, 09:03:26 am

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/
Nothing is as simple as it seems. jriver even gets a mention in this article.
happy reading

Anyone who tries to tell you that sample rate affects timing resolution, as notes "fall between the samples" doesn't have an understanding of how digital sampling works. You should disregard this article.
I recommend that you watch the whole video, but this section covers timing, with a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM#t=1254 (20:54)

fitbrit · « **Reply #19 on:** May 31, 2020, 01:39:18 pm »

Any chance that JRiver could look at utilizing GPU acceleration to help with the DSD encoding process in MC? Rival systems use this and it would be a good checkmark for MC to be able to do. Or is it already the case?

Hendrik · « **Reply #20 on:** May 31, 2020, 05:45:54 pm »

Quote from: fitbrit on May 31, 2020, 01:39:18 pm

Any chance that JRiver could look at utilizing GPU acceleration to help with the DSD encoding process in MC? Rival systems use this and it would be a good checkmark for MC to be able to do. Or is it already the case?

This is not an area we're currently looking to spend significant technical resources on, sorry.

More likely to explore options to utilize the CPU better for these conversions - although the aformentioned CPU in this thread is a dual-core mobile CPU, so .. there isn't that much more to gain.

fitbrit · « **Reply #21 on:** May 31, 2020, 08:23:49 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on May 31, 2020, 05:45:54 pm

This is not an area we're currently looking to spend significant technical resources on, sorry.

More likely to explore options to utilize the CPU better for these conversions - although the aformentioned CPU in this thread is a dual-core mobile CPU, so .. there isn't that much more to gain.

Thanks for the response, Hendrik.

Manfred · « **Reply #22 on:** June 01, 2020, 04:25:00 am »

Your CPU i5-7200U @ 2.50GHz 2C4T has a CPU passmark of 3370 my i3-7100 has 5781. If my i3 has <20% CPU utilization your i5 should be < 5781 *20% /3370 =34% CPU Utilization for DSD 512 to PCM conversion. You must have more than 4GB RAM for this. I would guess it's not your CPU leading to problems if you have enough RAM. I have load full file into memory enabled, that is much better regarding CPU utilization than to load the decoded file into memory.

Manfred · « **Reply #23 on:** June 01, 2020, 04:37:45 am »

Quote

Stick to PCM and you won't have any of these problems.

I have not so much DSD albums <30 but some tracks I have in different PCM sample frequency and different DSD formats to compare them. To my ear's DSD over DOP using Devialet's MAT® DSD Core technology to convert the DSD format into Expert internal native PCM 40 bits / 384 kHz sounds always better. ?

RD James · « **Reply #24 on:** June 01, 2020, 05:33:57 am »

Quote from: Manfred on June 01, 2020, 04:37:45 am

I have not so much DSD albums <30 but some tracks I have in different PCM sample frequency and different DSD formats to compare them. To my ear's DSD over DOP using Devialet's MAT® DSD Core technology to convert the DSD format into Expert internal native PCM 40 bits / 384 kHz sounds always better. ?

Converting from PCM to DSD to PCM should never be an improvement, as conversion to DSD is a lossy process - especially at lower rates.
If you prefer how the DAC converts DSD to PCM rather than having Media Center convert DSD to PCM (note: Media Center should be set to use SOX resampling and TPDF dither if you are having it perform this conversion) you can always bit-stream DSD-native tracks, but that means you cannot apply processing to the signal such as Volume Leveling.

jbony01 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 23, 2020, 12:11:02 pm »

Quote from: RD James on May 31, 2020, 06:57:32 am

Conversion from DSD to PCM is not nearly as taxing as conversion from PCM to DSD512.
DSD512 to PCM is cutting down the frequency from 22.6 MHz to 192 kHz in your example.
PCM to DSD512 is a conversion from the source to 22.6 MHz.
And bit-streaming does not consume any resources since the DAC handles the processing.

The good news is that these super-high DSD sample rates only exist to try and bring DSD's 1-bit performance closer to that of a multi-bit format like PCM.

Note that DSD256 (11.3 MHz) is required to match the performance of 48kHz PCM.
It's a super-inefficient and wasteful format that is a relic from the '90s.
It's modern-day snake oil, just like all of the "high-res" audio formats companies are trying to sell you.

Stick to PCM and you won't have any of these problems.

Nonsense - most DSD capable DAC are 1-bit sigma delta DAC, therefore even if you send them PCM or DSD, they sample the data 1 bit at a time. The DAC will do a better job handling DSD than PCM, since DSD is native to it and sampled at 1 bit per xMHz (x: 64x44.1K, 128x44.1K, 256x44.1K, 512x44.1K). Therefore, regardless whether the audio files are PCM or
DSD it is best to set JrMC to upsample everything to DSD

agzorig · « **Reply #26 on:** September 23, 2020, 09:57:40 pm »

Quote from: littlegreenalien on May 31, 2020, 07:16:09 am

dsd256 is highest I can get it without stutters and static.

Have you tried Manfred's advise?

Quote from: Manfred on May 31, 2020, 03:52:34 am

Then you should enable in Options->Audio: Bitstreaming: DSD and under Device Settings DoP off and select the appropriate device driver. If that does not work you have a driver problem I guess.

I have the SMSL Sanskrit 10th v2 and performs well without any hiccups playing DSD512 files.

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Author Topic: Using up to dsd512 (Read 3541 times)