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[d_pert]

First-timer here ... just got my new IdPi:

1. Is the little fan supposed to be on all the time? It runs constantly and is quite loud (inappropriate for music listening in a quiet room). It has run the same way since I first supplied power to the unit -- even during restarts, etc.

2. I was running headless, connected via VNC, and chose 99 (shut down). The unit went offline, but the fan still whirs and the red power light is still on after 10-15 minutes. I'm afraid to pull the power cable due to the warnings about corrupting the SD card. How should I shut down, and what caused this apparent "hang"?

3. Which HDMI port is considered the "first" and which is the "second"? There are no labels that I can figure out on the tiny motherboard.

Thank you.

[BradATIMA]

1. Is the little fan supposed to be on all the time? It runs constantly and is quite loud (inappropriate for music listening in a quiet room). It has run the same way since I first supplied power to the unit -- even during restarts, etc.

If you got the fully baked IdPi, there should have been a small sheet included that specifies the two fan configurations. The fan configuration is controlled based on the GPIO configuration of the power cords to the fan. Basically, you will just need to move one of the cords to a different GPIO pin for silent mode.

2. I was running headless, connected via VNC, and chose 99 (shut down). The unit went offline, but the fan still whirs and the red power light is still on after 10-15 minutes. I'm afraid to pull the power cable due to the warnings about corrupting the SD card. How should I shut down, and what caused this apparent "hang"?

Even when the IdPi is shut down, it is still receiving power. The red LED indicates power. The green LED next to the red power LED is activity. During the shutdown process, the green LED will do a final blinking sequence before going inactive. When it's shut down, you should see no activity from the green LED.

3. Which HDMI port is considered the "first" and which is the "second"? There are no labels that I can figure out on the tiny motherboard.

It can be very hard to tell. In very small print, the HDMI port closest to the power plug is labeled HDMI0. This is the primary.

[d_pert]

Thank you so much!

Further thermal solution ... Is there a consensus re: CPU/GPU safety of choosing silent mode? I intend to plug HDMI into a 4K home theatre system, but only for display of the GUI occasionally, for configuration, etc. Not to play video. Do you think I'll be okay?

[JimH]

Should be OK.

[astromo]

2. I was running headless, connected via VNC, and chose 99 (shut down). The unit went offline, but the fan still whirs and the red power light is still on after 10-15 minutes. I'm afraid to pull the power cable due to the warnings about corrupting the SD card. How should I shut down, and what caused this apparent "hang"?

I'm an IdPi 3+ / 3B+ user - so, no fan. However, I've not had any issue with SD card integrity regarding a hard shut down, so far (touch wood). My preference is to always do a graceful shutdown, whether via the remote client or via Panel. However there can be times when you're running headless and the network connection doesn't play nicely and a hard shut is all you've got. I would like to think that we don't need to tip-toe on egg shells around power cycling the smallest member of the MC family.

My guess is that d_pert had to deal with an uncharacteristic glitch.

[d_pert]

Thanks again.

Now I’m on to trying the IdPi as a just a renderer for an MC library served from a PC which includes all kinds of M4A (alac) files up to 24bit 192kHz 8 channel. I’m connecting HDMI to a fully capable AV receiver (Anthem MRX1120).

However ... I‘m hitting the “stereo only” wall, it seems. MC show it’s passing the full spec., including all channels, to the audio device. However, I only ever get stereo. Seems the ALSA mixer reduces everything to 2.0, and possibly resamples/truncates down as well.

My web reading seems to suggest that this is a common observation (limitation), and that some folks are getting into compiling new kernels, or drivers, to remove the limitations. Really? My primary/desired use case was to use the IdPi to play hires. multichannel files which I couldn’t with any Android-based streaming box (e.g., NVIDIA Shield TV 2019). However the IdPi seems to have practically the same limitations in this respect. 

Is there an official word on this topic? Are people practically playing hires multichannel PCM over HDMI using the IdPi 4B without becoming a Linux technician? Or do I need to shelve it and just retire a silent(ish) Windows PC or Macbook and dedicate that to the job instead? I was hoping the IdPi would be a simpler and more elegant (and cheaper) option for this.

[astromo]

I'm plain vanilla stereo but for multi-channel, I'd start with the wiki:https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DLNA
and check out the bottom of that page - Advanced Settings and some of the links below that.

[d_pert]

Thanks very much for that.

Conclusion is still the same however: the limitation is with the Raspberry Pi 4B's OS kernel itself. It's widely observed, comment on, and change-requested in forums (both MC related and non).

Example: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=97510.0

MC on my IdPi reports a direct connection to the ALSA sound device, with full source number of source channels and source sampling rate, at 32 bit. So it would seem MC is passing the full package onto the sound card. The issue therefore wouldn't be with the MC server, client, or be DLNA-related.

It seems there's no practical way to pass multichannel PCM over HDMI with the IdPi 4B. Very disappointed about that. ;(

Apple TV 2020 -- hope springs eternal!

[astromo]

Well - sounds like you've done all I could do if I were in your shoes.

Now, it's over to Jim and the team.

[d_pert]

Yes. Perhaps JRiver could offer an alternative (recompiled) kernel install version, with this change baked in — ?

[d_pert]

Wondering if there’s a USB-connectable sound device with full/proper HDMI passthrough, and possibly also Toslink/Coaxial. (?) Not a DAC, although basic DAC RCA outs wouldn’t deter me from getting it either. Hmmm.

[bob]

On a couple of the topics here.
You can do a graceful shutdown thorough Panel if you have authentication turned on.

The update to the IdPi4 (20200716) will allow you to add a switch to soft powerdown the IdPi.

Not sure about the HDMI multichannel issue, according to things I see online with the current kernel it should just work even though it claims to only support 2 channels. IIRC we patched the earlier kernel to do that on the 3b+.

[d_pert]

Hi Bob:

Thanks for this.

Re: PCM Multichannel; MC reports it’s passing all channels at full bit/sample rates to the sound device. However the sound device’s mixer is cutting it back to two channels. Sample rates all pass, but any AV equipment I use reports the input as PCM 2.0.

My own reading in the various forums up til about a week ago indicated that the community are waiting/hoping for this to be overcome. A few high skilled folks seem to be working around it by editing config file(s) and/or recompiling the kernel.

Where are you seeing any reports that it “just works”?.

Thank you so much.

[bob]

Hi Bob:

Thanks for this.

Re: PCM Multichannel; MC reports it’s passing all channels at full bit/sample rates to the sound device. However the sound device’s mixer is cutting it back to two channels. Sample rates all pass, but any AV equipment I use reports the input as PCM 2.0.

My own reading in the various forums up til about a week ago indicated that the community are waiting/hoping for this to be overcome. A few high skilled folks seem to be working around it by editing config file(s) and/or recompiling the kernel.

Where are you seeing any reports that it “just works”?.

Thank you so much.

I don't remember where I saw that because I was going down the rabbit hole of Pi hacking at the time but it claimed that was the case for HDMI devices.
Are you using the hw: .... HDMI device??

I'm pretty certain I fixed this for the previous IdPi revision by modifying and recompiling the driver. There are limits it appears though on the maximum sample rate at various numbers of channels and some noise about needing even numbers of channels for the GPU to be able to handle it.

[d_pert]

Hi -- sorry for the delay responding.

Re: which hardware 'device' I'm using in MC's Audio settings: I'm using the plughw:CARD but I've also tried the hw:CARD one. The former produces the least changes in sampling rates, the latter does downsampling.

However, on plughw:CARD, any file with greater than two PCM channels (e.g., 6-ch) gets mixed down to stereo. This is the same on every 'device' (I've tried them all).

So as an example: If I throw a 192 kHz 5.1 PCM file at it, it comes out as 192 kHz 2.0.

[bob]

Hi -- sorry for the delay responding.

Re: which hardware 'device' I'm using in MC's Audio settings: I'm using the plughw:CARD but I've also tried the hw:CARD one. The former produces the least changes in sampling rates, the latter does downsampling.

However, on plughw:CARD, any file with greater than two PCM channels (e.g., 6-ch) gets mixed down to stereo. This is the same on every 'device' (I've tried them all).

So as an example: If I throw a 192 kHz 5.1 PCM file at it, it comes out as 192 kHz 2.0.

the plughw devices use alsa resampling and channel combining so that is why you are getting 2 channel.
You should use the hw: device and set up DSP Studio on MC to convert the sample rates your device can't handle.
You can run option 10 from the main menu
to see your device capabilities.

[d_pert]

I tried as you suggested, and:

--Option 10 shows the two (all) hardware devices (Card 0 and Card 1) as having the following capabilities: "Channels 1..2", all common sampling rates up to 192 (incl. 176.4), sample formats: S16_LE.
--I tried all possible software Device choices in MC; always 2 ch. max.

So it would appear that the Id Pi 4B is fundamentally limited to max. 2 ch. and also max. 16bit output, correct?

What's the likelihood of ever seeing that increased? Again: There is some anecdotal evidence in various Raspberry forums (non-MC related) that it is achievable, but those folks are so advanced it blows my mind (blush).

Thank you.

P.S. -- If I still wanted to source a completely silent mini-PC solution which *would* pass the full HDMI capabilities, is there another JRiver product for me?

[bob]

I'll look at this more when I get a chance, you might have to bump the thread...

[d_pert]

Hi bob:

This is not a bump, as that would be a bit soon.

To double-check, I've methodically gone through all the HDMI devices again, trying multiple files with varied channels, sampling rates, etc.

They all mix down >2.0 ch. to to 2.0.
They all seem to be able to pass whatever sample rate up to 192kHz I feed them.
With 24-bit files, "hw" makes MC report "...16 bit [...] (not using enough bits to output the input directly)..."
However, "plughw" makes MC report "...32 bit [...] (direct connection)..."

I note that in the rudimentary-looking "ALSA" mixer (option #14), I can adjust the volume of the HDMI output. I'm not sure what that indicates, except that perhaps the "direct" connection reported by MC is not really "direct" to the device; there's that "ALSA" mixer in between.

[bob]

Hi bob:

This is not a bump, as that would be a bit soon.

To double-check, I've methodically gone through all the HDMI devices again, trying multiple files with varied channels, sampling rates, etc.

They all mix down >2.0 ch. to to 2.0.
They all seem to be able to pass whatever sample rate up to 192kHz I feed them.
With 24-bit files, "hw" makes MC report "...16 bit [...] (not using enough bits to output the input directly)..."
However, "plughw" makes MC report "...32 bit [...] (direct connection)..."

I note that in the rudimentary-looking "ALSA" mixer (option #14), I can adjust the volume of the HDMI output. I'm not sure what that indicates, except that perhaps the "direct" connection reported by MC is not really "direct" to the device; there's that "ALSA" mixer in between.

Those are all good questions and observations...

The  ALSA driver for the Pi's built in audio doesn't support bitdepths >16. You can see this by running option 10 on the main menu.
When you use plughw: ALSA is converting 32 bit to 16 bit before sending the to the device. plughw drivers hide that conversion from the software layer.
Because ALSA devices can have myriads of mixers (master, PCM, etc) MC's system mixer can't handle them all (IIRC MC's system mixer uses the PCM mixer). So the ALSA mixer (Option 14) is used to control the other mixers.

[d_pert]

Okay. So if a person wanted to add 24-bit and multichannel PCM over HDMI to an IdPi, what would be the most practical and/or economical way? Maybe there isn't any, and I should upgrade to a different Id?

In other words: Is there some 3rd party USB product, like a "USB to HDMI" (as in, a "DDC" not a "DAC") out there? I've been Googling, and it's pretty sparse and/or sketchy on that front. Second best would be a "USB to Toslink", for at least preserving 24-bit, but of course still limited to 2ch.

Further, re: the USB-to-Toslink idea, there would currently be some advantage for me: In my current use of the IdPi, I'm using the built-in 3.5mm analog out, because I need to supply alternative audio programming (over DLNA from a PC-based MC music 'server') to an AV receiver which is showing video from a different HDMI source at the same time. As with many/all receivers, I can't display video from one HDMI source while monitoring audio from another HDMI source (e.g., IdPi). I can only monitor audio from any non-HDMI audio source such as analog or Toslink. So I'd prefer digital to analog (Toslink over 3.5mm>RCAs).

Thank you.

[bob]

I did a bunch of searching on this and re-reading forum posts and kernel hacks.
The bottom line is that ALSA won't support more than S16_LE on the bcm2835.
There are hacks to get it to do multichannel, it's really quite surprising that hasn't reached the distribution kernel yet.

Our IdNUC does multichannel 24 bit over the HDMI port without issue.

[d_pert]

Okay great and thanks.

Re: the NUC: can it be operated with the fan OFF (zero fan noise)? I will only be using it as a DLNA renderer, just FYI.

This was the original reason I got interested in the Pi: possible to kill the fan.

[bob]

Okay great and thanks.

Re: the NUC: can it be operated with the fan OFF (zero fan noise)? I will only be using it as a DLNA renderer, just FYI.

This was the original reason I got interested in the Pi: possible to kill the fan.

Not that I know of at any rate.
There are some NUC models that are completely fanless, we did some experimentation with them early on and they worked fine but in that case you'd probably have to roll your own and use a regular MC linux build.

[d_pert]

Thanks, bob.

So ... if I wanted to relatively easily and conveniently add digital out (non-native/HDMI) to the IdPi without modifying it with a HAT, etc., do you think one would have any success with, for example:

https://www.amazon.ca/SMAKN%C2%AE-CM6631-Coaxial-Optical-Convertor/dp/B017QP1WHG/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=%22usb+to+coaxial%22&qid=1596893467&sr=8-9

In particular ... I'm wondering whether -- if I add this or a similar USB device, and assuming it conforms to the/a "USB Audio Standard" -- is it likely to: a) work at all, b) allow MC to pass PCM directly to it *bypassing the ALSA mixer* (allowing up to the full spec of the device and s/p_dif , e.g., 24/192 2-ch, to be passed?

P.S. -- This is not fishing for any kind of endorsement of any 3rd party product, only a heads-up re: whether Id Pi can be expected to recognize and/or play nice with USB Audio-standard devices, and any anecdotal experience that can be shared to help me avoid going down another rabbit hole. (I know that many such devices won't pass 88.2 and 176.4, BTW.)

Thank you again.

[astromo]

From reading the reviews from the link there are a few users noting difficulties with Windows drivers. But what you want to look for is comment from a Linux user.

There is one review from a user that notes:

Operates correctly with my MacBookAir

From what I know, the Mac OS is a variant of Linux, so that's a positive indicator that the unit should communicate with the IdPi. There's only one way to find out for sure.

When you plug it in, refer here for clues as to whether the device has been recognised. You'll need that detail to set yourself up anyway.

[d_pert]

H astromo:

Thanks for the info.

I actually took a (small) plunge and ordered from HiFiBerry.com:

-Digi+ Pro HAT
-Custom plastic case for above, and the RPi 4B
-Heatsync

Much less expensive, ostensibly the same or better quality, and less boxes/cables.

Will report back.

Any tips or heads-ups in the interim will be greatly appreciated.

[bob]

H astromo:

Thanks for the info.

I actually took a (small) plunge and ordered from HiFiBerry.com:

-Digi+ Pro HAT
-Custom plastic case for above, and the RPi 4B
-Heatsync

Much less expensive, ostensibly the same or better quality, and less boxes/cables.

Will report back.

Any tips or heads-ups in the interim will be greatly appreciated.

I have a digiplus on one IdPi and a Amp2 on another. Both work fine.
The amp2 occasionally (very rare) loses the ability to change sample rates and I have to reboot it but it was a very early model.
I've not had any issues with the digiplus.

[d_pert]

That's great news. Thanks!

While I wait -- dizzy with anticipation  -- I have a question about the mini SD card:

If I ever screw up the system (software-wise), is it possible to download an image of the 'factory install'?

I'm aware of the menu option 77, but I'm not completely clear: Does that restore some kind of system partition from a buried image file? Or does it just clear/reset the MC app's stuff? In particular, I'm concerned about someday corrupting the mSD due to accidental power cutoff during card writing, etc.

In other words, how can one do a complete 'factory restore' to 'out of box' condition?

Thank you.

[bob]

That's great news. Thanks!

While I wait -- dizzy with anticipation  -- I have a question about the mini SD card:

If I ever screw up the system (software-wise), is it possible to download an image of the 'factory install'?

I'm aware of the menu option 77, but I'm not completely clear: Does that restore some kind of system partition from a buried image file? Or does it just clear/reset the MC app's stuff? In particular, I'm concerned about someday corrupting the mSD due to accidental power cutoff during card writing, etc.

In other words, how can one do a complete 'factory restore' to 'out of box' condition?

Thank you.

Currently on IdPi there is no way to restore the entire card, it can only be returned to be rebuilt.
The IdNUC has a repair stick since it can boot USB.
Option 77 does a reset of all of the MC installation settings, clears out the libraries and main menu settings so unless the card is corrupted that is the out of box option.

[d_pert]

I received my HIFIBERRY DIGI+ PRO for my Id Pi 4B.

It was a very simple install -- basically plug-n-play! JRiver Media Center simply and automatically added the new device to the list of available audio devices in settings. Zero config required other than selecting the new device. Every 2-ch. 24-bit PCM sampling rate I hit it with passes unadulterated (JRiver reports 'direct') to the S/P_DIF outputs, up to 192kHz. Sound quality is of course FAR superior to the 3.5mm analog headphone/line out. Very happy with this! Highly recommended.

Reflection: I feel like the Id Pi as sold is incomplete for typical home audio enthusiasts and needs this board or equivalent as standard. What home user who's already into things like JRiver Media Center and DLNA devices would elect to use 3.5mm analog headphone/line out?

P.S. - The addition of the new card requires a larger case. I had also ordered the HIFIBERRY UNIVERSAL CASE FOR PI4, BLACK. It works but it's disappointing -- too flimsy/makeshift feeling for my liking. So I ordered STEEL CASE FOR HIFIBERRY DIGI+, PI 4, V2. Will report back about result.

[bob]

I received my HIFIBERRY DIGI+ PRO for my Id Pi 4B.

It was a very simple install -- basically plug-n-play! JRiver Media Center simply and automatically added the new device to the list of available audio devices in settings. Zero config required other than selecting the new device. Every 2-ch. 24-bit PCM sampling rate I hit it with passes unadulterated (JRiver reports 'direct') to the S/P_DIF outputs, up to 192kHz. Sound quality is of course FAR superior to the 3.5mm analog headphone/line out. Very happy with this! Highly recommended.

Reflection: I feel like the Id Pi as sold is incomplete for typical home audio enthusiasts and needs this board or equivalent as standard. What home user who's already into things like JRiver Media Center and DLNA devices would elect to use 3.5mm analog headphone/line out?

P.S. - The addition of the new card requires a larger case. I had also ordered the HIFIBERRY UNIVERSAL CASE FOR PI4, BLACK. It works but it's disappointing -- too flimsy/makeshift feeling for my liking. So I ordered STEEL CASE FOR HIFIBERRY DIGI+, PI 4, V2. Will report back about result.

I think the analog is ok for simple applications. If you have an HDMI amp, using that works well.
That said I think the Hifiberry DAC+ and Digi Plus I use on my other IdPi's sounds great.

[d_pert]

The thing about the Id Pi HDMI connection is:

It down-samples and down-bits any >16bit/48k content. Not claiming that's audibly significant, but it is likely a consideration for many users. In some AV setups, having HDMI as the only digital option also necessitates leaving the TV/display powered on even if one only wants to listen to music.

I'm actually more thinking of brand inconsistency here -- JRiver as the 'choice of audiophiles', etc. The Id Pi without S/P_DIF, or full-capability HDMI*, seems somewhat out of alignment.

*In addition to down-sampling and down-bitting, the HDMI also down-mixes PCM >2ch to stereo.

[JimH]

The thing about the Id Pi HDMI connection is:

It down-samples and down-bits any >16bit/48k content. Not claiming that's audibly significant, but it is likely a consideration for many users. In some AV setups, having HDMI as the only digital option also necessitates leaving the TV/display powered on even if one only wants to listen to music.

I don't believe it downsamples.  What are you playing, how is it connnected, and why do you think that?

[JimH]

What home user who's already into things like JRiver Media Center and DLNA devices would elect to use 3.5mm analog headphone/line out?

I think many IdPi's are connected to DAC's via USB.  I use HDMI with mine and it connects to a receiver.

[bob]

The thing about the Id Pi HDMI connection is:

It down-samples and down-bits any >16bit/48k content. Not claiming that's audibly significant, but it is likely a consideration for many users. In some AV setups, having HDMI as the only digital option also necessitates leaving the TV/display powered on even if one only wants to listen to music.

I'm actually more thinking of brand inconsistency here -- JRiver as the 'choice of audiophiles', etc. The Id Pi without S/P_DIF, or full-capability HDMI*, seems somewhat out of alignment.

*In addition to down-sampling and down-bitting, the HDMI also down-mixes PCM >2ch to stereo.

The IdPi HDMI should go up to 192k depending on your receiver. I've definitely run it at >48k.
You should make sure that your output device is not a PlugHW device, rather a HW: or HDMI: device.
Also, make sure MC is not setting the output format on playback failure (the default is usually 48k).
You are correct that it's can't do native multichannel, the ALSA driver doesn't do that yet even though the chipset is capable of more.
You can however dolby encode multichannel over the HDMI port if your receiver can decode it.

[d_pert]

I don't believe it downsamples.  What are you playing, how is it connnected, and why do you think that?

Yes — you are right, JimH. Apologies: I’m not experiencing any downsampling on the HDMI. Only the down-bitting and down-mixing described above (with input from bob and astromo). I got my “downs” mixed up there! 😊

Sources tried: every sampling rate of PCM (flac, wav, over DLNA, served from a PC running MC, all conversions avoided at every step, see above thread). Devices tried in MC: all. My ANTHEM MRX-1120 AV receiver tells the incoming HDMI channels and sampling rate. The 16 bit truncation is assumed based on the limitations apparent in the device settings in, and reporting by MC on the Id Pi, and referring to bob’s in depth comments re: ALSA limitations above « on: August 06, 2020, 12:25:13 pm ».

So it’s the truncation to 16-bit and the down-mixing to stereo in the ALSA mixer which remains notable. Again, sincere apologies for the false alarm regarding downsampling.

My point, in the bigger picture, is only that the Id Pi would feel more “finished” if a) it had the Hifiberry Digi+ Pro or equivalent as standard, or b) alternatively, if the HDMI limitations were lifted with further development of the Raspberry Pi OS, which of course is beyond JRiver’s control. If I had to pick one, I’d pick b) because right now, as far as I can tell, there is no* DLNA renderer with full 24/192/8ch PCM HDMI out there. No Android TV OS based streaming box does it (even Nvidia Shield Pro 2019, which I own). Apple TV doesn’t. Roku doesn’t. This was actually my main aspiration getting the Id Pi: full HDMI spec covered in a small silent DLNA renderer.

*-Putting aside that there’s some handcrafted ultra-high-end box for $10K somewhere outta Italy or Switzerland or something. I mean: remotely affordable.

[bob]

Just a FYI, I've used the IdNUC to do unencoded 24 bit multichannel to my amp via HDMI.

  Device 7, ID `HDMI 1', name `HDMI 1', 1 subdevices (1 available)
    2..8 channels, sampling rates 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000 Hz
    Sample formats: S16_LE, S32_LE, IEC958_SUBFRAME_LE
      Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'

As well as dolby encoded multichannel out the optical port (just for comparing the two).

[d_pert]

Good to know, thanks.

Update re: Hifiberry metal case. Verdict: Excellent. Much more satisfying than the plastic one. Highly recommended.