Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[mozartino]

Hi,
I really need your help, I'm no expert at all.
I have to create a library with all the liquid music contained in an external HD.
Unfortunately the collection is of classical music and, as you know, it is difficult to catalogue.
One of the biggest problems are the tags and metadata, the default ones are often inaccurate and approximate, if not even wrong ( the reason remains a mystery )
Now since quarantine began, I've been making many unsuccessful attempts.
My wish would be to have a navigable library organized as follows:
Left column with Composers names only
Then clicking on a Composer I would like to have the names of Compositions ( not the albums  ) displayed.
Then clicking on a Composition I would like to see a list of all the different performances of the same composition ( for example all the recordings of a Symphony without the single tracks but with all the tags - as I will write later - ).
Then clicking on the single recording, finally all the tracks.
The tags I need are:
Composer - Composition Name - Conductor - Orchestra - Date - Soloist - Label - Cover - filetype - bitrate.
Do you think JRiver is able to meet these needs?
Would any of you be able to help me?
The second problem is:
my tags are particular and do not respect the normal standard tags...could you help me to find the right matches for Orchestra , Soloist?
Thank you all for your help, I'm sure that among you there will be an expert or a classical music lover who has faced the same problems.
Ultimately I would like to use JRiver to create my database. Unless someone knows alternative methods to achieve the same goal.
Greetings...

[wer]

Welcome to the forums.

Yes, JRiver can definitely do that.

There is no built in support for Composition (there should be) but I wrote a tutorial a while back that shows you how to implement that.  You can find it here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=122114.0

For your view, it sounds like you're hoping someone will spend an hour or so writing up a step by step guide for you... I don't have to to do that at the moment but someone might come along.  What you want can be done in a panes view very easily.

You can learn a lot about creating your own views by reading Marko's excellent tutorial here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=68960.0

Regarding your final question about "my tags are particular" and you want help finding "matches" you'll need to explain much more explicitly what you mean... It's not really clear.

[timwtheov]

I might be able to help, as I organize my classical views very much like you describe, though in my case as "Categories" rather than "Panes," which I think is what you're wanting. It's easy to transform one into the other, however.

What do you think of these images, in order in the gallery?

https://pix01.jriver.com/oI1@klVP

1. Alphabet of composers (by last name)
2. Composer last names starting with "M."
3. My special tag, [Classical Grouping], for a really general grouping of composition types--Orchestral, Concerto, Chamber, Solo Instrument, Vocal, Electronic--so I'm not always looking at long lists of works.
4. Mahler's orchestral works that I have.
5. Recordings of his Symphony No. 5.
6. Gary Bertini's performance of Symphony No. 5 on EMI.

This is the kind of thing you're after, yes? If so, I can give you some suggestions on setting this up.

Edit: I do realize that in the tagging window on the left side of the last couple of images, the order of fields isn't the most logical, e.g., [Publisher] between [Orchestra] and [Soloist(s)]. I just set them up this way a long time ago, and now I'm used to it. I've been thinking about grouping them more logically, however.

[mozartino]

First of all, thank you!
I've started to follow your directions.
I have come to this (surely little and perhaps wrong)
see attach1

Unfortunately, I'm really a stranger to this kind of technology.
@wer you're hoping some will spend an hour or so writing up a step by step guide for you.
"The heart has reasons that reason does not!" (Pascal)
I'm so desperate that I'd be willing to pay for a ready-made model...
Alternately, I have excel...
If you understand JR, for me, is just a tool to create a database, playback is a very secondary aspect right now.
Thank you very much timwtheov ...very attractive your graphics setup, but it's not what I'm looking for. I need lists without too many pictures to make room for a lot of information in a single screen.
I'm going to go into the details now, and I'm hoping to put it into words:
as you can see from the screen (see attach 1) I set the main views in the left column ( Composers - Title - Conductor - Soloist - )
Now, by adding a folder to the library, will I be able to see every field filled in? (assuming the tags are right?)
In case of wrong tags can I edit them immediately and load them into the library?
And now the most important thing: in the "Title" view  I should be able to see a list of compositions ... clicking on the single composition will I be able to see all the interpretations of the same ?( without individual tracks)...and for each of these individual interpretations will I get all the details in a line?
Details are : conductor, soloist, orchestra, participating artists, recording date, label, album name, album number, filetype, bitrate, notes (these would be the metadata ?)
In other words I would like to get to a view where each column of excel is a panel of JR ( see attach 2)
Many thanks to everyone for your help

[wer]

Everything you're describing can be done, yes.  At least as far as your ability to describe it in English and my ability to understand you allows. 

Looking at your spreadsheet, the Name would be your Titolo field, and Composer would be Compositore. You don't have a column for Composition.

JRiver has pre-existing tags for most of the fields you are interested in, and you can create new ones if you need to, like for "Box".

JRiver has advanced metadata editing capabilities, so you would probably do best by importing the files into Media Center, looking at your tags for any problems, and then just editing the tags right in MC.

Yes, using a Panes view you can have a panel corresponding to each column, although obviously there is a limit to how much will fit on your screen. Panes are resized to fit on your screen: you cannot scroll horizontally to 65000 columns like you can in Excel.  So if you try to have too many panes (columns) on your screen at once, they will get quite narrow and you will be unable to read them. But you can fit 10 or so easily.

Yes, you can have a list of all Compositions, either separated by Composer or not, and by selecting a Composition title, you would be able to see a list of all versions or interpretations of that Composition, regardless of who the performer was, if that is what you want.  All that can be done by properly configuring the view.  You would also have to be extremely consistent and systematic in how you tag your files.

What you are describing is well within the capabilities of the software.  It is something I would consider of only moderate, not extreme, difficulty or complexity.  But as a new user, it will take you some time to work up to this level to learn how to implement it.

Here is a simple example of what can be done:

[EnglishTiger]

Wer - Based on their contents I translated/mapped the Excel column headings into existing Tag/Field names slightly differently:-

Titolo = Track Name
Box = Album Name
Album = The New "Release Medium" Tag/Field - which has to be added to the Library so that MC can see/use it - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,123122.0.html

So a modified "Panes View" with Composer/Compositori, Conductor/Diretorri and Soloist/Solisti in the upper panel could possibly achieve mozartino's goal given that the Lower Pane will only show those tracks that satisfy any criteria imposed by clicking on any entry in one, or more, of the columns/lists in the Upper Pane

[wer]

Yes I think you're right about Titolo. He kept on about Composition so I was looking for that too much, and so he doesn't actually have a column for composition. I edited my post to reduce confusion.

[mozartino]

Thank you,
@wer I'll write you a reply in pm...
Some wishes:
jpeg of wer is a column view, right? I was thinking of a panel view.
Also: I would like a composers only panel ( Bach, J./ Mozart, W.A. ) and nothing else
Clicking on Bach a new panel with the names of the compositions and nothing else
Then clicking on Composition Name a new panel (line excel style) with list of different permormances / conductor/soloist/ orchestra/ participating artists/data/filetype/ bitrate/tracknumber/ discnumber/publisher/notes/
Then by clicking on a single interpretation a new panel (player style) with covers, front, back, publisher links etc etc. etc.
I am aware of the difficulty of dealing with an unknown topic and using terms with multiple translations.
I hope I was understandable.

[wer]

I'm not sure you're using the word panel correctly, or if we understand it the same way. (More than one panel is panels). I thought you meant the generic meaning of panel, which is an area of a user interface surrounded by borders (often moveable), and which in this context is similar to a window or pane.

My screenshot shows panes.

Do you actually mean the JRiver Web Interface which is (unfortunately) called Panel and is shown here:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Panel
If this is what you mean, Panel is limited in the metadata fields it displays.

If you mean something else, show me a screenshot in JRiver of what you mean.

[mozartino]

Hi wer,
never seen panels before!
So, what is the name of the large empty area to the right of the column in my view, posted earlier?

Other problem: is tagging certain types of files very difficult? I'm talking about APE, ISO SACD?
Maybe I should convert them to flac or dsf?
This would mean lengthening the time

[wer]

The web interface is called "Panel" with no 's' on the end. If you say panels with an s that means something different. So it seems that's not what you meant if you have never seen it, so let's not mention it again until you get your terminology straight.

Please read this article:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Standard_View

Your screenshot looks to me like you are using the Modern Cards White Edition Skin. But I can't make my screen look exactly like yours; there's something with the name of the tab.

We need to get the terminology clear.  Please do two things:

1. Take a screenshot of the entire window, and circle the part you want identified.
2. If you are talking about your "Compositori" view, right click on that view (right where it says Compositori in the tree on the left), select Customize View, and show me a screenshot of the dialog box that appears. It would be helpful if you temporarily switched your language setting in MC to English before you took the screenshot.

[BigSpider]

I think the big empty space being talked about is a big empty space which means there are no files in the tutto compositori selection as it clearly states by putting up (0) after the group name. If the compositori tags are not filled in for each of the files then voila a big empty space.

[wer]

Yes probably. But I'm interested in why his tab is labeled Audio. Mine doesn't behave that way. I want to see the vew definition.

[BigSpider]

Yes that is rather odd!

[wer]

Other problem: is tagging certain types of files very difficult? I'm talking about APE, ISO SACD?
Maybe I should convert them to flac or dsf?
This would mean lengthening the time

Mozartino, once you have the files imported into MC, the type of file does not matter for tagging.  Don't convert them.  Once you have everything imported and tagged correctly, THEN you can later convert them if you wish using MC, and the tags will convert with them. ISO is not an easy format to deal with, but Don't worry about that now.

[EnglishTiger]

Yes probably. But I'm interested in why his tab is labeled Audio. Mine doesn't behave that way. I want to see the vew definition.

Wer - there's another "oddity" in that screenie - The heading "Audio" and not the view "Compositorie" is highlighted (selected) in the tree.

[wer]

Yes I'd seen that.

[mozartino]

ok, column on the left = tree
my empty area = content panel ( according standard view )
Probably I messed up a few things...that would justify oddities.
In attach screenshots as requested...
Is it right tree?
how should I call Composers - Titles - Conductors - Soloists? ( in the tree) Categories? Tabs? Views ?

[BigSpider]

The items you describe are properly called views, you have a Composer view, Soloist view etc. By the way your beethoven album name contains a typo: Beetoven instead off Beethoven.

[BigSpider]

This is an example of my set up, I am requesting albums to be listed but you could easily chamge this to list compositions instead.

[wer]

Good.  Now we are making progress.

Yes, the column on the left, with
Compositori
Direttori
Solisti
Titoli

is the Tree.  Each of those for entries, like Compositori you have circled, is a View.

Yes, the big area on the right is the Content Panel.  The upper section is where the Panes go. You could also show Categories there.  You have one Pane there now.  You can have many if you want. That is exactly what I showed you in my screenshot, many panes. When you have multiple panes, they all line up left to right.

The bottom section of the content panel is the file list. This area always shows individual files (tracks).

So in your first screenshot, we see that you have selected the COMPOSITORI View in the Tree.  We can see that it is a Panes-type view, and you have only one Pane defined, Composer.

Don't be confused by the fact that you're re-using the same word.  On the left, in the tree, you see that you have a VIEW named Compositori (which translates to Composer).  Inside the Compositori (Composer) VIEW, you also have a PANE called Composer (which translates to Compositori).  This is acceptable, but it means you must be careful with what you say.  The Composer VIEW is not the same as the Composer PANE, and of course there is also the Composer TAG (also called a FIELD).  It is the Composer field that is being shown in the Composer Pane.

In your second screenshot, we see the view definition.  We see that the COMPOSITORI view is a Panes view.  In that area on the left of the dialog, it shows what panes are defined.  This dialog box uses the word Categories (Categories = more than one Category).  The word Pane refers to the specific User Interface element that is being displayed, that's why it's called a Panes view.  The word Category (Categories) is used to refer to the type of data that is displayed.  That data can be displayed as tiled pictures or as panes (which are text lists). If you pull down the "View as" menu you see in that dialog box, you will see descriptions for the different ways things can be displayed.

The use of language within the MC program is somewhat imprecise, and the same word can mean different things depending on context. This is unfortunate, but it is the way it is. You will just have to get familiar with it. It can cause problems even for native English speakers.

In the part of the content panel, you see the word COMPOSITORI with a little down-triangle next to it. That little area is the handle for the TAB. The TAB, like a tab in a web browser, is like a window within a window, and you can have multiple tabs open, each showing you a separate VIEW.  You have one tab open, and it is showing your COMPOSITORI view.  If you click that little blank area just to the right of the handle, a new tab will open.  I think we should keep things simple and avoid talking about tabs, as that is not important to your question.

You can learn a lot about configuring all this by reading Marko's tutorial, that I linked to in my first post.

[DJLegba]

I prefer the Categories view. At the top level I have Composer (family name, given name). From there the categories are Genre, Work (a tag I created), and Album, but the nice thing about Media Center is you can select any lower level category without drilling down in order. After selecting composer "Beethoven, Ludwig van (1170-1827)" I can select Genres, and one of the categories will be String Quartet. From there I can select Works or Albums. If I click Works, select a particular string quartet and click Albums, I see every recording I have that contains that particular work, but the album track list is limited to the tracks in that work. It's a really quick and easy way to find all the recordings of Beethoven's Opus 59, No 1, for example.

It took a bit of effort to populate the "Work" tag for albums I'd already imported, but it's easy to update newly imported material. And just about everything that doesn't feature Justin Bieber will be tagged as "Classical", so you have to be prepared to edit the Genre tag.

I used Musici Tagger to sanitize most of the composer names, although that can be done manually. There are things I could have done better, such as identifying soloists in operas, but it's actually kind of fun to refine the tagging system as you go and discover new ways to zero in on what you'd like to listen to in a few steps. I subscribe to a streaming service, and after trying to find anything in particular there it's always a pleasure to come back to my own collection with JRiver and find exactly what I want right away.

[mozartino]

Hi guys, good morning!
Then, it seems to me that my tree is correct, right?
I have translated all in english.
What is the correct name for the Titoli view: Work/Title/Name? (I mean the names of the compositions, of course.)
In this moment I think is better for me to have only a pane for each view ( I mean in view Composer only alphabetical order of composers' names ) By the mean: would it be possible to have a drop-down menu linked to Composer in the tree with the family names of the composers, the same for Conductor, Soloist ...instead of a pane for each of them?
How to formatting artist name in "surname, name" ?
@wer
the example of the CD posted is just one of the many wrong and approximate tags I'll have to edit... I'm afraid this work will take the same time to write an spreadsheet...
Anyway, you're wizards, congratulations.

[wer]

Regarding the correct name for the Titolo view: Name is a field name in JRiver that cannot be reassigned. [Name] is always the name of an individual track/file.  It is not the name of the composition.  Each track must have a different [Name] field. Every track that is part of the same composition must have the same contents in the [Composition] field.  See my tutorial.

Title (titolo) is ambiguous, it can mean more than one thing. So I would not recommend using that.

I think the appropriate name for the view in Italian would be Composizione.  You can also create a field by that name following the instructions in my tutorial.

Having a view with only one pane has little value I think.
I would suggest the first pane be Composer, and the second pane be Composition.
But do what makes sense to you.

Regarding the drop down menu in the tree: No.

I think between my tutorial and Marko's, you have the information that you need.

Good luck!

[EnglishTiger]

mozartino - If you follow the accepted convention then the correct name for Titoli is Name, as in the name of the track
With regard of formatting the Composer, Conductor or Soloist names - there is no "hard and fast rule that you must follow" So adding them as "surname, name" is just as acceptable as "name surname". Unless you want to use them to do an internet search - most web-sites expect names in the "name surname" format.

And YES it is possible to achieve it all in 1 view

Take a look at the attached screenie; which is based on the Library View called Panes. Unfortunately all of my classical music is on vinyl, so I had to build my example using what is on my PC.
So in the Top Panel instead of "Artist" you would have Conductor and for "Name" substitute "Soloist"

And as you can see in the screenie the Composer, Artist(Conductor) and Name (Soloist) columns are all sorted alphabetically.
P.S. - when searching through you library if MC encounters a track or tracks where one or more of those 3 tags are empty it will add an entry called "Unassigned" to the relevant list

When you first click on the "View Name" (Composers) in the Tree the Lower Panel (the Search Results/List) will contain every track in your library
Now for the fun/smart bit:-
If you click on a Composers Name, i.e. Tchaikovsky, the contents of the Conductor and Soloist lists, and the contents of the lower panel, will get updated to contain only those Conductors and Soloists that appear on those Tracks where the Composer tag contains the "selected composers name"
Likewise if you select a particular conductor only those tracks where MC knows that person was the conductor will be listed.

But the fun/smart stuff isn't restricted to only selecting "one entry" from one column
If you select One Composer and One Conductor then the bottom panel will only show/list those tracks where the selected composer and selected conductor are present in the relevant tags.
P.S. If after having done a "restricted search", i.e you selected a composer and a conductor, and you want to go back to seeing/viewing the tracks for that conductor regardless of who the composer is you simply scroll up to the top of the column containing the name you don't want to apply, in this example the Composer list and click on the All.... entry.

Now for the really Smart Bit - let's imagine that while scrolling through the Composer list you spot a mistake in the name, i.e. you see "Bethoven" - If you right click on that mis-spelt name and select the "Rename" option and change it to "Beethoven" every track that had "Bethoven" as the composer will now have "Beethoven" as the composer.

What is also important is the fact that you have full control over what fields/tags are displayed in the lower/search results panel - you can display as few, or as many, that you feel you need to be able to complete any task you want to be able to do - the obvious one being to add "data/info" to empty tags/fields and correct any that have incorrect data/info.

[wer]

A lot can be done with multiple panes in one view, as I showed earlier.

But he asked for "a drop-down menu linked to Composer in the tree".  That can't be done, as you can't have drop down menus in the tree. 

Tree browsing of an expression that returns only the last name, or a pane, is the closest you can come.

[timwtheov]

Thought I'd chime in here again with a screenshot of the Panes view of what I outlined above a couple of days ago. I think Wer's given you excellent advice about getting your terms right and getting set up, but I wanted to show what you can end up with once you get to that point.

https://pix01.jriver.com/qI1@WXA9

[mozartino]

@timwrheov...WOW!!!
It seems to me very close to what I'm looking for...
I thought I only had 2 panes "Composer" and "Name" (i.e. the titles of the compositions).
And I wish your Expression pane with all details as shown in my excel file...maybe in another pane ( but very wide, to contain all the columns )
But I am very confused: where is your tree? What does it means AMG? How see the tag pane(?) on the left? (really usefull, moreover)...
I continue to be terrified of the time it will take to modify the metadata, almost all of which is wrong.
Your contributions are valuable... thank you very much.

[wer]

And I wish your Expression pane with all details as shown in my excel file...maybe in another pane ( but very wide, to contain all the columns )

? ? ?

That's exactly what I showed you in my screenshot 2 days ago, Mozartino: all the details from your excel file, in a panes view, pretty much exactly how you laid them out. Were you not looking?

My screenshot was just of a partial window. In his, the tree is behind the tag window; that's where the tag window appears when you open it. So apparently you have never tried to open the tag window in MC.

If you spend a little time learning the software you'll see all these things.  You have to learn to walk before you can run.

Here's a bigger screenshot of the same thing.  You can have whatever metadata you want in columns or panes.  Do you understand now?

[timwtheov]

@mozartino, Yes, what Wer said: you'll need to spend some time learning the basics of the program before you can get to specifics about tagging. For the latter, I use a Perl script called MCUtils which pulls metadata from AMG, or All Music Guide: that's what all those specialized fields are in my tag window covering the tree.

So learn how the program works, and then I can walk you through using MCUtils and amg.pl (the Perl script) if you want.

Here's All Music, if you're not familiar with it: https://www.allmusic.com/
It's got great consistency (and depth) with classical composers and their works, which is why I use it--better, in my view, than software like Musichi (which I used to use), or other sites like Discogs or Musicbrainz.

[mozartino]

i guys good morning I wanted to ask you kindly to check in photo 1 if my work is going well. Then I wanted to ask you some things : How  I can't name pane "Name" in"Composition"( maybe it's not so important)
I would like to group the 3 movements of the composition in one, so I tried to use the syntax wer "name: I.zzz/ name: II.xxx etc etc but I think I have to apply the expressions of wer( in his tutorial)

[Album, 1]/
<font alpha="35">ListBuild(1, / • ,RemoveRight(GroupSummary(Duration),6), listitem(;½;★;★½;★★;★★½;★★★;★★★½;★★★★;★★★★½;★★★★★, math(If(IsEqual(GroupSummary(Rating), avg, , RemoveRight(GroupSummary(Rating),4), GroupSummary(Rating)) * 2)))<//font>

[Composition, 1]      <font alpha="35">ListBuild(1, / • ,RemoveRight(GroupSummary(Duration),6), listitem(;½;★;★½;★★;★★½;★★★;★★★½;★★★★;★★★★½;★★★★★, math(If(IsEqual(GroupSummary(Rating), avg, , RemoveRight(GroupSummary(Rating),4), GroupSummary(Rating)) * 2)))<//font>
(I'm using standard view  )

Do I have to apply all 2 expressions or only one and then where should I put them, maybe in the fields of photo 2?
Photo 2 is right-clicking on pane "Name", is correct or I have to do it on view "Composition"
Once I enter this expression can I automatically display the grouped tracks?

@timwtheov
AMG is better than many others...I'll ask you infos about script pearl, soon.
can't attach photos...see next

[mozartino]

can't send attach...how is it possible?

[wer]

The rest of those expressions are about ratings, and they are for theater view, which you are not using.  You only need the [Composition] part.

If you have created the [Composition] field and named your files all as I described in the tutorial, that's all you need.