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Author Topic: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256  (Read 1572 times)

jbony01

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audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« on: September 22, 2020, 11:21:34 pm »

Help please with DSD256 -- I am using a DAC that supports DSD512 natively via USB/ASIO, I am using JR version 24 and have no problem when JR24 is configured for 1xDSD (DSD64), 2xDSD (DSD128) in native format even with the ASIO buffer sets to default 50ms, but when configured for 4xDSD (DSD256), it plays fine but have occasional audio dropouts. I have tried with he ASIO buffer sets as high as 1000ms, still dropouts.
Configuration:
DAC: MP-D2 MK3 deluxe DAC (AK4497 DAC module) with its ASIO driver
JR24: DSD bit streaming enabled (is the only DSD related setting that I have enabled), DSD bitstream in Dop format disabled
PC: a laptop based on the intel core i7-6600U, RAM: 16GB , HDD: SS 512GB, OS: MS Win10 PRO (with Latest updates)
(Task Manager ressources during DSD playback: CPU: 19%, Memory::39% (email program, web browser, JR playback), GPU: 9%, DISK: 1%)
Audio files: FLAC, APE, MP3 320K (I am not using native DSD files, I basically want to use the DAC's native DSD sampler since from I am hearing DSD sounds better than PCM)

Any Idea to why I'm having such issue with DSD256?
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2020, 03:50:25 am »

PCM to DSD conversions are some of the most resource intensive tasks JRiver Media Center can do, especially multichannel and especially when doing conversions to higher quality DSD like DSD256.

Very likely your laptop isn't powerful enough to handle the on-the-fly PCM to DSD256 conversion, hence the dropouts. The i7-6600U is a ultra low voltage dual-core CPU that's 5 years old with a base clock of 2.60 GHz, so it's likely DSD128 is the max conversion it can handle.

It isn't a JRiver Media Center issue, it's a hardware limitation of your laptop.
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jbony01

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2020, 12:27:47 pm »

PCM to DSD conversions are some of the most resource intensive tasks JRiver Media Center can do, especially multichannel and especially when doing conversions to higher quality DSD like DSD256.

Very likely your laptop isn't powerful enough to handle the on-the-fly PCM to DSD256 conversion, hence the dropouts. The i7-6600U is a ultra low voltage dual-core CPU that's 5 years old with a base clock of 2.60 GHz, so it's likely DSD128 is the max conversion it can handle.

It isn't a JRiver Media Center issue, it's a hardware limitation of your laptop.

Thanks for the reply, I think my JR configuration for DSD may be incorrect. I am not using any native DSD files, I simply want to upsample all of my PCM audio files to DSD in realtime.
Question:
To have JR convert PCM (FLAC, APE, MP3) to DSD in realtime do I need to have the bitstreaming = DSD or I should set bitstreaming=none, and simply set the DSP studio > output encoding to the desired native DSD format (Ex: 4xDSD native format via ASIO  - this works fine if bitstremaing =none, but not if bitstreaming = DSD). This is what is getting me confused. It seems to me that the bitstreaming is only required for native DSD files, and not for on the fly PCM to DSD upsampling.  (Please confirm)
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kr4

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2020, 02:43:24 pm »

Thanks for the reply, I think my JR configuration for DSD may be incorrect. I am not using any native DSD files, I simply want to upsample all of my PCM audio files to DSD in realtime.
Understood and the comment from AD applies: "PCM to DSD conversions are some of the most resource intensive tasks JRiver Media Center can do, especially multichannel and especially when doing conversions to higher quality DSD like DSD256."

It is not likely that your CPU can handle what you want to do.  Have you ever run the "Benchmark" to see how potent (or not) your system is?
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2020, 03:08:00 pm »

To say it simply, your computer very likely isn't powerful enough to handle DSD256 conversions. You're probably going to be limited to DSD128 with your laptop.
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Jamil

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2020, 04:25:04 pm »

Thanks for the reply, I think my JR configuration for DSD may be incorrect. I am not using any native DSD files, I simply want to upsample all of my PCM audio files to DSD in realtime.

One question I must ask is what is the point in this conversion?  If your source started as PCM, you will gain absolutely nothing by converting it to DSD.  If your source was originally recorded as DSD and you have this source as DSF, only then will you gain any potential benefit.  Source being recorded directly as DSD is very uncommon.

dtc

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2020, 04:33:34 pm »

Some people find DSD more pleasing than PCM through specific DACs. There is no one size fits all here. It depends on the DAC and on ones hearing and perception.  If it were just about wave forms, nobody would ever buy a tube amp. But lots of people do because they like the sound better. Same can be true for DACs and music formats (PCM versus DSD). Unfortunately - or fortunately - when human hearing is involved, there are no absolutes.
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jbony01

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2020, 04:55:56 pm »

AS dtc eloquently described it, my DAC simply processes DSD better than PCM, since it is a sigma delta DAC, unlike multi-bit R2R DAC, it samples data 1bit at a time at the desired DSD frequencies (64x44.1Khz, 128x44.1khz, 256x44.1khz, 512x44.1khz), which DSD is. So by feeding the DAC its native data, it processes it better, which results in less quantization noise, less the probability of the occurrence of aliasing and a more pleasing sound to my ears.

I haven't done the benchmac test, but I monitor the CPU load during DSD256 and it is only at 19%, so it seems to me that JR is not efficiently utilizing the CPU.
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Jamil

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2020, 05:38:34 pm »

Okay.  It must be from your particular DAC.  I also have a delta sigma DAC and do not experience this particular issue.

One option if your computer cannot handle the on-the-fly conversion is to simply convert your files to DSF before hand.  You may be able to play these back, since your DAC natively supports the format.

jbony01

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2020, 04:05:57 pm »

I currently have version 24, I'll upgrade when you guys improve the DSD CPU utilization issue. I do not see any reason why I can't play DSD 512 on an intel i7 with 16GB of RAM showing 22% CPU utilization during DSD 512 playback, yet have occasional audio dropouts.
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JimH

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2020, 05:48:17 pm »

I currently have version 24, I'll upgrade when you guys improve the DSD CPU utilization issue. I do not see any reason why I can't play DSD 512 on an intel i7 with 16GB of RAM showing 22% CPU utilization during DSD 512 playback, yet have occasional audio dropouts.
Dropouts could be the DAC, the bandwidth available, antivirus, etc.  I don't think it's an MC problem.
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2020, 06:39:53 am »

The problem is the CPU in your laptop isn't fast enough to handle the on-the-fly DSD256 or DSD512 conversion as it's a 5 year old dual core Intel Core i7 6600U. Even though it's an i7, it's an old and weaker i7 with only two cores and four threads with a base clock of 2.6 GHz and a boost clock of 3.4 GHz. DSD resource utilization was actually slightly improved in Media Center 27, but if you're converting to DSD256 or DSD512 with a dual core CPU you're still going to have issues with the system being able to keep up with the on-the-fly conversion. As mentioned, dropouts when doing those DSD conversions are usually indicative of the CPU not being fast enough to be able to handle the on-the-fly conversion, which when converting to DSD256 makes things much, much more complicated requiring a more powerful, faster CPU. DSD512? The CPU needs to be as fast as possible, remember with increase in DSD quality (from DSD64 to DSD128 to DSD256 to DSD512) the CPU speed requirements increase even more. DSD512 has a higher CPU speed requirement than DSD256 does.

The 22% CPU utilization tells me the on-the-fly DSD conversion is using a single thread - one of the four threads your CPU has. This is to be expected when doing any sort of conversions like this, including DSD conversions. Typically what happens in Media Center and other apps that do conversions like this (like dBpoweramp) is that each single file conversion usually takes a single thread. For example with my 6 core CPU with 12 threads, it can convert up to 12 files at once, one file conversion per thread. I don't think this is a process where multiple threads (or worse, multiple cores) can be used for converting a single file, as this is probably a bad idea in the making, assuming it's even possible in the first place (which I have my doubts it is). Think of it this way, it's a bottleneck. Your CPU can't do the DSD256 conversion fast enough while the file is playing (and MC is actively doing the conversion), so you encounter dropouts. This isn't a Media Center issue, as it's already optimized for conversions like this and there's nothing more that can really be done in the app to 'speed' it along any further, as it's likely as optimized as it can be now. The limiting factor when doing conversions like this is always going to be how fast your hardware, especially CPU, is.

And ultimately, that's exactly what it's going to boil down to, how fast your CPU is. The faster the CPU clocks are, the better your single threaded performance will be doing on-the-fly DSD conversions in Media Center for higher quality DSD like DSD256. So for your laptop and CPU, the limit of your hardware for the on-the-fly conversions is likely DSD128 (which honestly is impressive, as a lot of older machines can't go past DSD64 on-the-fly conversions) and I don't think there's anything you can do to 'fix' that other than using another, more powerful machine. Or I guess you could pre-convert all your files to DSD256 or DSD512, but honestly that's a waste of storage space.

Try running the benchmark and posting the score here, it's a good way to tell you how powerful the laptop really is.
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dtc

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2020, 09:27:05 am »

JMarks are a useful overall benchmark, but for PCM to DSD conversion, I suggest looking at the Math benchmark, specifically the single threaded math ones. 

I pulled some data for comparison. Lots of detail, but it may be useful if you are into benchmarks.

My two i5 laptops (Gen 8 and Gen 10) have JMarks of 4137 and 4610, but the math scores are only 2045 and 2083 with the image and database values in the 4100 to 5700 range.  My 10 year old desktop has a JMark of 2501, but the Math score is 1890, not much lower than the Math scores of the new laptops. But the image and database scores on the old desktop are only 2800, hence the low overall JMark.  Image and Database clearly dominate the current JMark scores.

By comparison, from the JMark thread, Matt's i9 machine has an overall JMark of 7398, with a Math JMark of 3404. That is top of the line Intel, but the math JMark is only 50% faster than the current generation i5 laptops and the single treaded values are only 35% to 40% higher.   Much of the jump in overall JMarks is in Image and Database, with less increase in Math. And, the mighty AMD Ryzen is lower in single threaded performance (see passmarks below) than the I9.

I pulled up some Passmark data for some of these processors, which shows the trend over time.  Note than there is a much larger jump in multi-threaded performance than in single threaded performance and the mighty Ryzen is actually below the Intel i9-9900 in single threaded performance and is basically the same as the new I7 laptops.

                                               Single        Multi
                                               Threaded    Threaded

i650 (i5)           2010 desktop       1388         2200
i7 6600u           2015 laptop         1899         3563
i5-10210u         2019 laptop         2257         6490
i7-10750H         2020 laptop         2750        12741
i9-9900K           2019 desktop      2900         18821
Ryzen 9 3900x  2019 desktop       2731        32861
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2020, 10:55:58 am »

And, the mighty AMD Ryzen is lower in single threaded performance (see passmarks below) than the I9.

This is to be expected, AMD's Ryzen 3000 series of CPUs still have a little lower IPC than Intel's CPUs. This will probably, hopefully finally change once Ryzen 4000 series is launched next month and we might finally see AMD surpass Intel in terms of IPC and single threaded performance. Current rumors are Zen 3 will have between 17% to 20% IPC gains, 50% increase in floating-point operations, a major cache redesign and higher base and boost clocks. :D

Would love to see a Ryzen 4000 series CPU that can clock up to 5.0 GHz. Instant buy for me!
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dtc

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2020, 11:44:14 am »


Would love to see a Ryzen 4000 series CPU that can clock up to 5.0 GHz. Instant buy for me!

Announcement on Oct. 8 with some chips supposed to ship by end of year (Milan, Ryzen 4000) and full lineup to roll out through 2021, with Zen3 at 7 nm. Should see IPC improvement and clocking up to 4.9 GHz.  We will know more on the 8th.
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Jamil

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2020, 10:16:52 am »

I currently have version 24, I'll upgrade when you guys improve the DSD CPU utilization issue. I do not see any reason why I can't play DSD 512 on an intel i7 with 16GB of RAM showing 22% CPU utilization during DSD 512 playback, yet have occasional audio dropouts.


If I was you, I would try another media player that also supports DSD and your DAC.  See if the issue happens with the other media player.  If it does happen, then it points to your hardware.  If it does not happen, then it points to MC24.  I would agree that 22% CPU usage is quite low.  Is one of the cores showing maximum usage at least?

As previously mentioned, it could be a USB bandwidth issue too.  My DAC has a built-in feature to lower the USB bandwidth to help prevent such issues.

Awesome Donkey

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2020, 11:01:18 am »

The 22% usage matches up with a single thread (one of the four) being used, so that's what I'd expect to see. Conversions are single threaded unless you're converting multiple files at the same time.

It's most definitely the hardware, specifically the CPU, being the limiting factor here.
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Windows 11 2023 Update (23H2) 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.04 LTS Noble Numbat 64-bit | Windows 11 2023 Update (23H2) 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/256GB NVMe SSD)
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Jamil

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Re: audio dropouts with JR 24 and DSD256
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2020, 11:31:40 am »

Well, my CPU is older than his is, and I have never faced this issue.  I do not have a laptop though.

Again, try another media player to see what happens.
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