Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[rolf_eigenheer]

As comox correctly noted, the blocking he reported is not related to starting drives.
This thread here handles 10-20 seconds long (unnecessary) blockages when drives are sleeping.

First of all: It is clear that a sleeping drive needs a little time before it is available. The pause with the message 'Wait for Spinning up Drive' is therefore not an error. It is unavoidable if titles are to be played from this drive.

In the following, I am referring to UI freezes which occur during navigation through the database where no access to the data would be required.
Even if background applications shouldn't block the UI, I have switched off all relevant automatisms: 'Autoimport in the background' and 'Display missing file image in lists'. 'If (IsMissing ())' has also been removed from the StatusBar.

Problem:
When displaying a view, MediaCenter unnecessarily accesses the media. It becomes a problem if this access blocks the UI.
Access is unnecessary because the display of the view and navigation through the DB runs smoothly if the drive with the media is not available. In the case of larger data collections with several drives, the problem occurs several times.

Possible solutions (each suggestion on its own can solve the problem):

a) Move all media access to background threads and ensure that the UI can be operated at all times.

b) Refrain from unnecessary access.
b1) Keep all required data in the DB and Thumbnails folder
b2) Let the user decide with an option whether he wants to access the drive for a slightly higher resolution preview image.
b3) Create a global option that blocks all media access except for playback.
b4) Create a global option that blocks all media access except for playback and manually triggered tagging operations.

The problem for me is an urgent one. I would be happy to provide a video on YouTube for documentation purposes. However, I think nobody wants to watch me stand 10-20 seconds before the message: 'MediaCenter is not responding' every time the film category changes in the view.

At the moment my work around is to disconnect the media drives from the network and only connect them when the playback should start. I'm sure that could be solved more elegantly in 2020.

A few more pointers:
- It's not a Defender problem. All 'taming' is applied.
- It is not a NAS problem. A spin up delay of few seconds is a normal behavior.
- There is no way to move the media to a single drive. The collection includes around 40TB.
- None of my drive bays keep the disk rotating all the time if there is no access for more than 24 hours. Some of my drives are only needed once every few days / weeks.

[comox]

My PC has 1 system SSD, and 7 media HDDs (23 TB) connected via SATA3 to the motherboard with no RAID.

All MC data and thumbnails are on the SSD.

All of my drives are configured to sleep after 20 minutes.

When I navigate the MC database, the UI never blocks. It is always smooth.

What is different about your system?

[rolf_eigenheer]

My external drives are in drive bays which do sequential spin up to reduce power peaks. This will result in longer spin up if several drives need to spin up the same time.

My Video Views are showing datasets containing media stored on different drives. The view 'Crime' might show Movies from three drives while 'Drama' might show Movies from additional other drives.
Microsoft Sysinternals Process Monitor logs these file access to every Movie file which is displayed by the view. Even it would not block the UI, it will spin up the drives without a cause. If necessary I'll provide some more logs.

User lepa has noticed the same freezes. See https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,127593.0.html.  It seems that MC does not store enough information for some Movie Files in its DB and therefore requests them during DB browsing.

My thoughts are:
Mediacenter can spin up one or two drives at the same time in background. But it will fail when waiting for more drives at the same time.


It is very likely that I also ran into freezes as you have described them. Over the years, I saw a lot. But I am not that sensitive to disruptions during database maintenance and organization. When I work on the computer I don't expect anything better. It's only annoying when I want to listen to my music, look for my photos or want to be inspired by a film. Here I want this simplicity and reliability that my HiFi rack offered me.

[JimH]

Is your MC database located on a local drive?

[rolf_eigenheer]

Is your MC database located on a local drive?

Yes! It is located on a fast SSD.

Nothin which happens is surprising. Reading from a sleeping Drive takes some time.
What goes wrong in my eyes: The files shouldnt be read while browsing the db.
And that they were read is verified by logging MCs file activities with Sysinternals Procmon.
And that there is no need to, is proofen by the fact, that it works fine with the media drives disconnected.

[Manfred]

I have the same problem for video: spin-up drive - takes a  few seconds wait-  UI freezes during this time and then its OK. I have never reported it. I  lived with it because its 1-3 seconds and rarely.

My Environment: I have 2x8TB disk mirrored with Microsoft Storagespaces and 3x 10 TB disk for Movies & TV Show. Total of 46 TB diskspace. The database is on M2 SSD.

[comox]

So you're saying the only significant difference between your system and my system is that your drives are set to sequentially spin up?

Maybe turn off sequential spin up and see if your power supply can handle it. Or get a bigger power supply?

[glynor]

What goes wrong in my eyes: The files shouldnt be read while browsing the db.

Just making sure because we've discussed it previously, but you have Tools > Options > Tree & View > Advanced: Display Missing file image in lists disabled, correct?

Because with that on, then it does absolutely have to check every file on disk in the visible file list in order to display them.

For what you specified, you'd also want to make sure: (1) all of your thumbnails are pre-built and cached (otherwise it will read the files to build thumbnails), and (2) Auto-Import Settings: Update for external changes is disabled. For the latter, I'm not positive it would impact just browsing around, but that would at least periodically trigger MC to spin up the drives and read the files. And, if any changes are made to any of the files, then Auto-Import could trigger when the filesystem event happens (it also just triggers on a timer for full-scans as well).

Lastly, you may have already done this, but you may really want to check power draw at the wall before you assume that sleeping the drives actually saves power. A single spin-up of an array can cancel out the power savings for a LONG period of idle-spinning. With my usage patterns, when I tested power-draw at the wall, it did not make sense at all to let my main media array sleep.

For my cold-storage drives, definitely. But I disconnect those from the dock and put them on a shelf when they're not in use, so that doesn't matter in practice. But for my main online media array, it was costing more in power (and drive wear and tear) to let them sleep when I actually tested them, and so I now have them spinning all the time.

[rolf_eigenheer]

@Manfred: Different drives and different connections will show different freezes. Can you confirm, that this happens while browsing the Movie View - even you don't start one of them ?
I can accept a delay for 10seconds when the drive needs to start. But it's annoying if that happens when just browsing the DB. And it's more annoying when it happens several times for several drives - and again after watching the movie, because the unused drives went to sleep again.  I can accept when I see a need for. But there is none.
When I'm right, MC can start one or two drives in background. It seems that it struggles when there are more. This would explain why you don't see several freezes.

@comox: My drive bays do not offer that option. And there is really no reason to spin up 8 drives when I need one to watch the movie. It is not only a question of wasting time. Drives should not start too often.

It is not a big thing to fix it. There is nothing to do. Just do not read the movie files while just browsing the DB!

[rolf_eigenheer]

Just making sure because we've discussed it previously, but you have Tools > Options > Tree & View > Advanced: Display Missing file image in lists disabled, correct?

Because with that on, then it does absolutely have to check every file on disk in the visible file list in order to display them.

For what you specified, you'd also want to make sure: (1) all of your thumbnails are pre-built and cached (otherwise it will read the files to build thumbnails), and (2) Auto-Import Settings: Update for external changes is disabled. For the latter, I'm not positive it would impact just browsing around, but that would at least periodically trigger MC to spin up the drives and read the files. And, if any changes are made to any of the files, then Auto-Import could trigger when the filesystem event happens (it also just triggers on a timer for full-scans as well).

Lastly, you may have already done this, but you may really want to check power draw at the wall before you assume that sleeping the drives actually saves power. A single spin-up of an array can cancel out the power savings for a LONG period of idle-spinning. With my usage patterns, when I tested power-draw at the wall, it did not make sense at all to let my main media array sleep.

For my cold-storage drives, definitely. But I disconnect those from the dock and put them on a shelf when they're not in use, so that doesn't matter in practice. But for my main online media array, it was costing more in power (and drive wear and tear) to let them sleep when I actually tested them, and so I now have them spinning all the time.

Yes Glynor I remember your advices. I followed them all.
I do not turn off my drives to save power. They do that themselves. And there is no configuration for that. But if they sleep, I'd like to leave them sleeping. Too much power cycles shortens discs life.

[Manfred]

Can you confirm, that this happens while browsing the Movie View - even you don't start one of them ?

Yes I had this.  I had also a mouse lag problem - few sec waiting and then the mouse reaction comes back using MS RDP. But I can not reproduce it now. I have changed something. I had not updated all exclusion rules in Windows Defender for MC27 (MC26 before) and  I have now also excluded all Drive Folders (e.g.  S:\Video\Movie & TV Show\BD) in Windows Defender. Mouse is working now fine.

[rolf_eigenheer]

Attached a log with a few out of 20'000 file operations which happened while I switched through 4 different Movie genres.
I did not even start a movie!!!

The log shows the delays between acces to different shares. If a view accesses 3 shares the resulting freeze is 3x 10..15 seconds.

PLEASE: Do not tell me that a faster drive would solve my problem. 3x 3seconds is still annoying. If it is for nothing.
And as one can see, the drives are accessed one after the other. The spin up sequence of my drive bays is not responsible for hat.

Once again: I just want to browse my DB to get an inspiration what movie I could want to view. Once I'm sitting in my chair, a beer in my hand, then it is no problem if the movie starts instantly or a half minute later.

[rolf_eigenheer]

Try to walk in my shoes

Honey! Do we want to see a movie? I can offer these crime films. Do you prefer a comedy? (I click on another view).
After 30 seconds and several clicks on that window, she walks away.

[Sauzee]

I have exactly the same experience as the OP.

MC can be painfully slow when using browsing/searching the database because  MC is waking up multiple sleeping external hard drives.

I have MC library on a local ssd drive and the music/video files on about 5 external HDD's. Also I have not opted for MC to display missing file image  etc

It would make for a much smoother experience if MC wasn't accessing these storage drives, unless I choose to play or access a file on them.

[JimH]

Try to walk in my shoes

Honey! Do we want to see a movie? I can offer these crime films. Do you prefer a comedy? (I click on another view).
After 30 seconds and several clicks on that window, she walks away.

Short attention span.

[rolf_eigenheer]

Short attention span.

You're right Jim. ;-)  But I love her.  So I'd be glad to give her best possible user experience.

It's like the dripping faucet. At some point you can no longer ignore it. You already know in advance that it will happen again. Knowing that it doesn't have to be like that is a good way to drive you crazy.

[wer]

Try to walk in my shoes

If I were in your shoes, here's what I would do, all in parallel:

1. Be irritated
2. Try everything to make sure the software config was correct to avoid unnecessary disk access.
3. Report the problem to the software vendor
4. On the assumption that the software vendor would take a long time to make a code change in response to my report (ever reported a bug to Microsoft?) I would disable spin-down or sleep on my NAS drives. There is almost always a way, either through the NAS OS, or through the drive firmware (accessible by powering off the NAS, putting the drive into a different machine, and running the drive manufacturer's firmware utility).  This would mitigate the issue until the software vendor responded.  I would have made sure I purchased a NAS system and drives where I had this kind of control.
5. If I really really wanted my drives to sleep, then also on the assumption the software vendor might never implement code changes in response to my complaint, I'd look for different software that better fit my needs.

Sounds like you have 1-3 covered. Perhaps you should try #4.

Good luck.

[rolf_eigenheer]

If I were in your shoes, here's what I would do, all in parallel:

1. Be irritated
2. Try everything to make sure the software config was correct to avoid unnecessary disk access.
3. Report the problem to the software vendor
4. On the assumption that the software vendor would take a long time to make a code change in response to my report (ever reported a bug to Microsoft?) I would disable spin-down or sleep on my NAS drives. There is almost always a way, either through the NAS OS, or through the drive firmware (accessible by powering off the NAS, putting the drive into a different machine, and running the drive manufacturer's firmware utility).  This would mitigate the issue until the software vendor responded.  I would have made sure I purchased a NAS system and drives where I had this kind of control.
5. If I really really wanted my drives to sleep, then also on the assumption the software vendor might never implement code changes in response to my complaint, I'd look for different software that better fit my needs.

Sounds like you have 1-3 covered. Perhaps you should try #4.

Good luck.

I contacted the manufacturer of my drive bay (IcyBox Raidsonic). There is no hidden option nor a firmware update available which disables sleep.
They also do not have any other products which keep the drive spinning. The support suggested to write a batch file which writes to every drive every few minutes. Since there is no PC running all the time in my household I'd have to run that batch from every PC which runs MC.
Since this would require Write Access for all of them I havent't applied that.

From all the possible solutions, the easiest would be: Not access the files when just browsing the DB. Therefore there is hope, that River reads and understands that request. I lived with this over years. It became worse with every additional disk. Now I need a solution which hopefully is not #5. 


Jim stopped by this thread to joke. Maybe he's in discussion with Matt, and the two of them find out that a simple CommandLineSwitch /DoNotReadMovieImagesFromMediaDriveWhenJustBrowsingTheDB would fix the problem before breakfast.

[wer]

They also do not have any other products which keep the drive spinning.

I get that your NAS doesn't have a canned way.

Have you tried just pulling a drive and probing it with hdparm or HDDscan?

[rolf_eigenheer]

Have you tried just pulling a drive and probing it with hdparm or HDDscan?

It might cause additional load when done regularly.

As I said: I found a workaround. I disconnect all my movie drives. MC then works fine. When I've chosen a movie, I go downstairs and plug in that drive. The extra steps down and up the stairs are better than the hassle of waiting after each click of the mouse. I just have to endure to be smiled at by my friend when he asks why and what for I need this media thing.

[wer]

It might cause additional load when done regularly.

You don't understand what I mean. I was talking about directly modifying the drive parameters, which you would only need to do once, not regularly. But if you don't understand it, you shouldn't attempt it.  Never mind.

[rolf_eigenheer]

You don't understand what I mean. I was talking about directly modifying the drive parameters, which you would only need to do once, not regularly. But if you don't understand it, you shouldn't attempt it.  Never mind.

Thank you for the clarification. I prefer to leave that, if it can be avoided.

What leads you to believe that JRiver will be reluctant to solve the problem at its root? On the one hand there are some users who suffer from the same problem and on the other hand the solution is easy to implement.


Imagine you go to a real old library and want to borrow a book. The librarian flips through the card box incredibly slowly, because with every card, an employee first runs into the warehouse and returns with a better image of the cover of that book you dont't want to borrow. At some point you get tired of waiting and ask if there is no other way.
"You would have to buy faster running shoes or build a new warehouse with wider doors that are more accessible and stay always open."
And you start to wonder what's wrong with you ...

Wider data buses and higher frequencies can accelerate wrong processes but cannot repair them.

[flac.rules]

I have similar problems, In fact it is one of the biggest downsides of the program. The UI is not prioritized high enough. It is quite easy to find situation where file access or other time-consuming operations freeze up the UI, this should ideally be avoided as much as possible. Glynors post illustrates the problem imho, why should a missing or waiting to be updated thumbnail freeze the UI?

[Matt]

I've just been spending some time running Process Monitor and looking at a video view.

We were validating the cover art path, which would spin up the drive.  I'm switching the next build to not validate until it is used.

The statusbar and check file option also spin up, but I documented how to get around that in a previous post.

You also need to make sure all your thumbnails are built since building a thumb could spin up.

I now look at my video views and there is no disk access.

Thanks for the help, and let us know how it works once a new build ships.

[rolf_eigenheer]

Thank you! It feels to me like Christmas and Easter on the same day. :-)

The topic was read almost 500 times. Apparently there is interest in this. I am therefore summarizing all the settings that trigger access to the file system. It is up to the user to choose which options he wants.

- The IsMissing () query in the StatusBar tries to access the selected file

- 'Update Tags When File Info Changes' in the 'Edit' menu also writes the tags of the media file when a data record in the library is changed.

- All import processes, including the AutoImport in the background, must access the file system.

- Thumbnails which have not yet been created are created when browsing through the DB. With 'Building Missing Thumbnails ...' under Tools \ Advanced Tools this can be done in one go.

- But there is another process that I wasn't aware of until a few days ago. Entries that are deleted from the library are automatically placed in the 'Removed' database. MC uses this database to exclude these files from the next import. So that this DB does not grow infinitely, MC regularly checks whether the excluded files still exist. So if you are wondering why a drive starts for no apparent reason, you should empty the 'Removed' DB.
See https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,127668.msg885864.html#msg885864

[rolf_eigenheer]

Update:
'Show track info tooltips' from Tree&View would also access the mediafile and wake up a drive

[Matt]

Update:
'Show track info tooltips' from Tree&View would also access the mediafile and wake up a drive

That will spin the drive up if the cover art is sitting on the drive (since it loads that).

[rolf_eigenheer]

That will spin the drive up if the cover art is sitting on the drive (since it loads that).

There is no option to configure where the cover art has to be stored ?  Or did I miss something ?
To be clear: This is not a problem for me. Turning off that option allows to keep the drive sleeping.

[BillT]

Go to Options>File Location>Cover Art and you can choose where cover art is stored.

[rolf_eigenheer]

Go to Options>File Location>Cover Art and you can choose where cover art is stored.

OK. This is already set to a folder on the local SSD.
'Show track info tooltips' from Tree&View seems to read something else. But again: No Problem,  I can turn it off.

[rolf_eigenheer]

That will spin the drive up if the cover art is sitting on the drive (since it loads that).

The Movie thumbnails are always stored in the media folder, no matter what path is set for cover Art ?
There are still situations where MC reads these cover arts. Browsing in Theater View reads JPG and directory information. This happens while you're hovering with the mouse over the Movies.

It seems that theater view uses access functions which are different from that used by Standard View. Could you apply the fix also to Theater View? Thanks!