Topic: WDM issues with Tidal tracks above 44.1 KHz (Read 3444 times)

fitbrit · « **on:** January 26, 2021, 03:48:57 pm »

I'm seeing this issue again:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=116637.0

Basically any higher res tracks in Tidal (Masters) cause stuttering if Tidal is used with WDM as the audio device in Exclusive mode.
Exclusive mode is the only way to get "unfolded" Masters 88.2 or 96 KHz tracks to play natively.

If anyone has fixed this issue recently, what settings have you used.

I've tried playing with the Audio Device hardware buffer settings and the latency for WDM as well. Nothing seems to fix this so far.

dtc · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2021, 05:28:55 pm »

I just tried a 24/96 album from Tidal (Nick Drake - Five Leaves Left) without problem. I have volume disabled in MC and the buffers and live input both set at default of 250 ms. All DSPs off. Play from memory does not matter. Output is through HDMI to a TV - sorry no real sound system connected to MC here in Florida. The TV does not support 24/88 so I cannot test that. This is on current Windows 10 with a 10th gen i5 laptop. JMark of 4636 with math value of 2129 with SSD system disk. 24/96 input and output confirmed with Audio Path. MC .28

So, at least 24/96 works for me.

fitbrit · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2021, 07:14:46 pm »

Thanks for all that information. I'm playing via AES or SPDIF to a DAC.
I'll see if any of my settings differ from yours.
Using a quad core AMD Ryzen 3 APU (3200G).

tij · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2021, 09:57:37 am »

Maybe its cable problem ... aes and SPDIF were originaly designed for 24/48 and 20/48 respetivrly ... so higher rates might need very good cables

Does your DAC has other interfaces you can try ... USB? ... HDMI?

Try setting Windows audio to 24/96 ... and play something 24/96 through Windows ... if that stutters, its not MC thats causing this

fitbrit · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2021, 10:24:14 am »

Quote from: tij on January 27, 2021, 09:57:37 am

Maybe its cable problem ... aes and SPDIF were originaly designed for 24/48 and 20/48 respetivrly ... so higher rates might need very good cables

Does your DAC has other interfaces you can try ... USB? ... HDMI?

Try setting Windows audio to 24/96 ... and play something 24/96 through Windows ... if that stutters, its not MC thats causing this

Hi tij
Good suggestion, but that's definitely not the issue. I make (award-winning) computer systems based on very high quality AES and SPDIF outputs, and all my testing gear is working fine. Besides, the issue is non-existent playing up to 192 KHz files locally, or even directly in Tidal. The issue is only for WDM.

tij · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2021, 10:45:11 am »

Quote from: fitbrit on January 27, 2021, 10:24:14 am

Hi tij
Good suggestion, but that's definitely not the issue. I make (award-sinning) computer systems based on very high quality AES and SPDIF outputs, and all my testing gear is working fine. Besides, the issue is non-existent playing up to 192 KHz files locally, or even directly in Tidal. The issue is only for WDM.

Just to exhaust this possibility ... when you play 192kHz with no issues, are you sure 192kHz files are not down sampled by Windows to 48kHz before going to DAC via AES or SPDIF?

fitbrit · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2021, 11:56:55 am »

Quote from: tij on January 27, 2021, 10:45:11 am

Just to exhaust this possibility ... when you play 192kHz with no issues, are you sure 192kHz files are not down sampled by Windows to 48kHz before going to DAC via AES or SPDIF?

Absolutely sure, tij. One of my products was just reviewed in The Absolute Sound February 2021 issue. My whole company is based on producing flawless computer audio, and I know what I am doing for the most part - but always willing to double check since we all make mistakes. I've been using MC's exclusive mode WASAPI for over 10 years and am absolutely sure we're not resampling in Windows.

Wheaten · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2021, 05:05:38 pm »

Quote

I assume that you configured the WDM driver correctly via the control panel and set it as default sound device?
CPU is not spiking?
No MEM leakage? (Windows key + R keyboard shortcut, type mdsched.exe)?

Ran a test with Bob Marley, Turn your lights down low Exodus master.
It plays through WMD without any issue.
I do have to admit, that the complete system is ripped from all bloatware and fully optimized for audio.

fitbrit · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2021, 05:44:03 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions. The issue occurs after some time and continues until I pause and resume the track in Tidal. Even the act of pausing can cause the audio to stutter for 1-2 seconds until it pauses.

fitbrit · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2021, 05:47:07 pm »

Quote from: Wheaten on January 27, 2021, 05:05:38 pm

I assume that you configered the WDM driver correctly via the control panel and set it as default sound device?
CPU is not spiking?
No MEM leakage? (Windows key + R keyboard shortcut, type mdsched.exe)?

Ran a test with Bob Marley, Turn your lights down low Exodus master.
It plays through WMD without any issue.
I do have to admit, that the complerte system is ripped from all bloatware and fully optimized for audio.

I haven't set it as the default device in Windows, as it can be chosen as the playback device within Tidal with exclusive access. I'll try the track you suggested. I've been testing with Walking in the Rain by Flash and the Pan (Masters version) plus a few others.

The system has also had most bloatware that can be removed taken out.

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2021, 06:49:52 pm »

Quote from: Wheaten on January 27, 2021, 05:05:38 pm

Ran a test with Bob Marley, Turn your lights down low Exodus master.
It plays through WMD without any issue.

Good to hear, but it's WDM, not WMD.

Quote

I do have to admit, that the complete system is ripped from all bloatware and fully optimized for audio.

What does that mean? Operating system? What OS? What do you consider bloatware?

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** January 27, 2021, 07:06:15 pm »

From the screenshots, it looks like you're converting and the time it takes may account for any stuttering.

fitbrit · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2021, 09:38:02 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 27, 2021, 07:06:15 pm

From the screenshots, it looks like you're converting and the time it takes may account for any stuttering.

Hi Jim
Which screenshots are you referring to? I'm most definitely trying to avoid all conversions, and none are taking place. If you're referring to the thread I linked to, that was not from me and I didn't post any screenshots on it. I just happen to have the same type of problem.

One possible clue:
The system that is having this issue is using an AB350 chipset with a Ryzen 3200G. Another system with the same APU but using a B450 chipset doesn't have this issue except for the first fraction of a second when starting playback. Both have 16 GB of RAM, and are on the latest BIOSes with Windows 10 20H2

tij · « **Reply #13 on:** January 27, 2021, 11:20:48 pm »

There is a thread in Beta Team forum about improved WDM in relation to Tidal that allows increase of buffer

Since you Beta Team ... you can test it out and maybe provide some feedback to Hendrick

fitbrit · « **Reply #14 on:** January 27, 2021, 11:26:38 pm »

Quote from: tij on January 27, 2021, 11:20:48 pm

There is a thread in Beta Team forum about improved WDM in relation to Tidal that allows increase of buffer

Since you Beta Team ... you can test it out and maybe provide some feedback to Hendrick

Thanks tij

I did actually try it today, but am not sure I did it right. I was only made aware of the thread after I started this, and we're not supposed to talk about Beta team only stuff here, so I refrained. I started to post in that thread, but something came up and I had to deal with it. May go ahead and do so. Thanks again.

Wheaten · « **Reply #15 on:** January 28, 2021, 01:18:15 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 27, 2021, 06:49:52 pm

Good to hear, but it's WDM, not WMD.What does that mean? Operating system? What OS? What do you consider bloatware?

OS: Windows 10 pro, 1909, built: 18363.1256
HW: Intel Core i7-4600U, 12GB
Bloatware: With bloatware i mean all software, provided by MS, which has no use on an audio system, like: 3DBuilder, ActiproSoftware, Alarms, Appconnector, Asphalt8, Autodesk SketchBook, Bing Finance, Bing Food And Drink, Bing Health And Fitness, Bing News, Bing Sports, Bing Travel, Bing Weather, BioEnrollment, Camera, CandyCrush, CandyCrushSoda, Caesars Slots Free Casino, ContactSupport, CyberLink MediaSuite Essentials, DrawboardPDF, Duolingo, EclipseManager, Facebook, FarmVille 2 Country Escape, Flipboard, Fresh Paint, Get started, iHeartRadio, King apps, Maps, March of Empires, Messaging, Microsoft Office Hub, Microsoft Solitaire Collection, Microsoft Sticky Notes, Minecraft, Netflix, Network Speed Test, NYT Crossword, Office Sway, OneNote, OneConnect, Pandora, People, Phone, Phototastic Collage, PicsArt-PhotoStudio, PowerBI, Royal Revolt 2, Shazam, Skype for Desktop, SoundRecorder, TuneInRadio, Twitter, Windows communications apps, Windows Feedback, Windows Feedback Hub, Windows Reading List, XboxApp, Xbox Game CallableUI, Xbox Identity Provider, Zune Music, Zune Video. As this script was build for a previous version, it still removes enough for me. Script, use with caution
For those who prefere a more commander like interface take a look at BloatBox
Disabled all automatic update functions
exclude JRiver executables and audio files from MS Defender.
And Finally installed Fidelizer Pro. To dedicate cores for JRiver executable and mediaserver. There is a free version with limited functionality.

Wheaten · « **Reply #16 on:** January 28, 2021, 03:59:57 am »

Hi Fitbrit,
To answer your actual question on settings

I've duplicated the way your using the WDM driver, configured through tidal and used the same song as you mentioned.
As I can see in my previous screenshot that the audio was upsampled by the settings in the control panel.
But I am unable to duplicate the issue.

DSP Settings:

Tidal settings:

DAC Setting:

Others:

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** January 28, 2021, 07:34:12 am »

Quote from: Wheaten on January 28, 2021, 01:18:15 am

OS: Windows 10 pro, 1909, built: 18363.1256
HW: Intel Core i7-4600U, 12GB
Bloatware: With bloatware i mean all software, provided by MS, which has no use on an audio system, like: 3DBuilder, ActiproSoftware, Alarms, Appconnector, Asphalt8, Autodesk SketchBook, Bing Finance, Bing Food And Drink, Bing Health And Fitness, Bing News, Bing Sports, Bing Travel, Bing Weather, BioEnrollment, Camera, CandyCrush, CandyCrushSoda, Caesars Slots Free Casino, ContactSupport, CyberLink MediaSuite Essentials, DrawboardPDF, Duolingo, EclipseManager, Facebook, FarmVille 2 Country Escape, Flipboard, Fresh Paint, Get started, iHeartRadio, King apps, Maps, March of Empires, Messaging, Microsoft Office Hub, Microsoft Solitaire Collection, Microsoft Sticky Notes, Minecraft, Netflix, Network Speed Test, NYT Crossword, Office Sway, OneNote, OneConnect, Pandora, People, Phone, Phototastic Collage, PicsArt-PhotoStudio, PowerBI, Royal Revolt 2, Shazam, Skype for Desktop, SoundRecorder, TuneInRadio, Twitter, Windows communications apps, Windows Feedback, Windows Feedback Hub, Windows Reading List, XboxApp, Xbox Game CallableUI, Xbox Identity Provider, Zune Music, Zune Video. As this script was build for a previous version, it still removes enough for me. Script, use with caution
For those who prefere a more commander like interface take a look at BloatBox
Disabled all automatic update functions
exclude JRiver executables and audio files from MS Defender.
And Finally installed Fidelizer Pro. To dedicate cores for JRiver executable and mediaserver. There is a free version with limited functionality.

Tweaking the OS might or might not work. It's risky and probably of no advantage.

Check the Windows Defender thread on the MC27 board for instructions on configuration. Don't assume your configuration is sufficient.

JimH · « **Reply #18 on:** January 28, 2021, 07:36:48 am »

Quote from: fitbrit on January 27, 2021, 11:26:38 pm

I did actually try it today, but am not sure I did it right. I was only made aware of the thread after I started this, and we're not supposed to talk about Beta team only stuff here ...

Yes. Thank you. We'd like JRiver to be able to decide when to announce changes. Work in progress doesn't always work out.

fitbrit · « **Reply #19 on:** January 28, 2021, 08:41:02 am »

Quote from: Wheaten on January 28, 2021, 03:59:57 am

Hi Fitbrit,
To answer your actual question on settings

I've duplicated the way your using the WDM driver, configured through tidal and used the same song as you mentioned.
As I can see in my previous screenshot that the audio was upsampled by the settings in the control panel.
But I am unable to duplicate the issue.

DSP Settings:

Tidal settings:

DAC Setting:

Others:

Under more settings for the WDM in Tidal, did you set it to exclusive mode? If you do that, there is no upsampling by Windows between Tidal and MC

Wheaten · « **Reply #20 on:** January 28, 2021, 09:14:07 am »

I did it, for the my latest reply.
The previous screenshot (song from Bob) I rendered audio to Default, as I made de WDM driver the default audio driver (per instructions from the wiki)
But then it will use the settings from the default audio driver. To duplicate your setting, I did the setting as in my 2nd reply.

fitbrit · « **Reply #21 on:** January 28, 2021, 10:42:21 am »

Maybe I am going nuts here. Is this thread full of screenshots, and I am not seeing any?

Wheaten · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2021, 11:17:06 am »

Please don't go nuts....... (Now I understand your remark)

Here are the images without the [IMG] tags
DSP Settings:
Tidal settings:
DAC Setting:
Others:

JimH · « **Reply #23 on:** January 28, 2021, 12:29:13 pm »

Quote from: fitbrit on January 28, 2021, 10:42:21 am

Maybe I am going nuts here. Is this thread full of screenshots, and I am not seeing any?

Yes.

fitbrit · « **Reply #24 on:** January 28, 2021, 02:01:59 pm »

Haha! Thanks, Jim. They show up now.

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Author Topic: WDM issues with Tidal tracks above 44.1 KHz (Read 3444 times)

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