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[tuneup]

Five days ago Comcast network crashed to between 0 and 9Mbps and I also discovered that my neighbors' devices had shown up on my network, along with my devices showing up on their network. As it couldn't be resolved on the phone, Comcast tech came out and spent two hours. Had to replace a recent XB7 gateway with a new XB7, but neighbors' devices were still there. I suggested that he check the sidewalk Comcast box to see if any reflections were happening. He replaced the old filter with a new one and the networks were finally separated.

But since the crash, my Bel Canto REFStream renderer doesn't show up in MC25 in Playing Now. I've rebooted the renderer, the Windows 7 Pro desktop computer where MC25 is residing, the XB7 and the eero Pro 6 router (XB7 is in bridge mode and eero is the router and first access point in a mesh network of 3 eeros) several times, but no luck. The REFStream in my living room is connected by CAT 6 to an Uptone Audio EtherREGEN Gigabit switch, which is connected by CAT6 to a D-Link Gigabit switch in my office, which is connected to the eero Pro 6. The REFStream's port on the EtherREGEN is blinking green, showing some kind of communication is going on. Three Sonos players show up in Playing Now and can play from my music library, but REFStream is MIA.

DLNA Server is configured as Generic DLNA and Mode: Original.

What should I try next?

[tuneup]

Until today JRemote connected to my desktop, although it also did not show the REFStream as a player. Here is a screenshot of the JRiver error from my iPad: https://www.dropbox.com/s/viw687mwjl8tahy/JRiver%20ERROR%2021-01-22.png?dl=0

All devices are on the same network, wired or wi-fi.

[JimH]

Simplify your network until it works again. Then add complexity step-by-step, testing as you go.

[AndrewFG]

^
Yeah. And power cycle everything. It’s likely that some of your devices haven’t realised that they are connected to a new modem.

[tuneup]

Thanks Jim. I eliminated all switches and eero network. I connected my desktop (MC25), my Synology DS214Play and the REFStream directly to the Comcast XB7, which is not in bridge mode so it is now the router, access point and modem. Things went from bad to worse. Not only was the REFStream not showing in Now Playing, but the 3 Sonos components had also disappearred. The only thing there is Player and Playing from Main Library. But MC25 won't even play music on the desktop, with this error message:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9z5ma5urneczn61/Screenshot%202021-01-23%2013.27.26.png?dl=0

I rebooted computer and reopened MC25. I got the same error. I saved my library, uninstalled MC25 and reinstalled MC25. Same error message. I started looking further and discovered that when the network went down, my NAS disappeared from the network. It can't be seen by Windows or by JRiver. I put the XB7 back in bridge mode so that I could see if the eero network, where I assigned fixed IPs to the NAS and all other music server components, could see the NAS. It still shows it with the fixed IP, but lists its status as "Not connected." So this explains the error message and why I can't play anything. So my first call Monday will be to Synology to get the NAS visible again. Then I likely need Comcast back out here because their network crashed again on Friday with speeds since then being between 2 and 9Mbps. Also the XB7 locks me out whenever it wants to so I can't easily manipulate bridge mode. I had to call a tech to help me get back in there to make the mode change. Even putting in the correct password, I often can't get in, so I had the tech re-do the password. With him on the phone and putting in the right password, it kept saying I had the wrong password. This was an American tech with 20 years of Comcast experience and he'd never run into this before. I'll get back in touch as soon as I've got the network back to normal and the NAS connected. Meanwhile, I'm living in network hell.

Andrew, I've power cycled everything a few times and done factory resets on some of the network gear as well.

[tuneup]

Senior Comcast tech and his supervisor spent 2 hours here. Internet and speed are back, but because of the intermittent nature of the problem and some other things that still weren't right, they are going to run a new line from the sidewalk box to my house. NAS drive came back along with Internet. Running a direct line from the office 8-port switch to the REFStream brought it back into Playing Now in MC25 and I can play music again. Thanks Jim.

To continue with the troubleshooting. After successfully playing music with the direct connection above, I then put the EtherREGEN switch back between the direct line and the REFStream. No music. I then reconnected the direct line to the REFStream. No music. I then turned off JRemote app and power booted the REFStream. Music played. I concluded that when breaking and reconnecting Internet to the REFStream, I should reboot it and JRemote. So I put the EtherREGEN back between the direct line and the REFStream, followed by rebooting REFStream and JRemote. Music played and is continuing to play. I will have to see if EtherREGEN is causing intermittent problems. I would like to keep it because it does audibly improve the sound, but if it keeps screwing up, I will have to send it back. I must have a switch at the rack because I have several components there that need Internet connection. If I send it back and go back to an ordinary switch, which turns out to cause the same problem, I could run a second CAT6 from the office just for the rack switch and keep the first one just for the REFStream. 

[zybex]

Five days ago Comcast network crashed to between 0 and 9Mbps and I also discovered that my neighbors' devices had shown up on my network, along with my devices showing up on their network.

I hear Comcast is bad, but even they can't make this happen. There's no way to bridge your home networks over your ISP modems and routers, unless you have a VPN tunnel setup between your houses. Reflections are a thing, but at most they cause lower speeds and dropped packets.

With almost 100% certainty, you have an Access Point in your house connecting your network to your neighbor's unsecured WIFI connection (or vice-versa, you may be the once broadcasting an [hopefully] unsecured WIFI signal and he's connecting with an AP). This is the only way that you could see each other's devices (short of an actual Ethernet cable between you two, or the above mentioned VPN). Not saying it's on purpose - both of you are likely unaware of it.

This explains the slowness and lack of connectivity: your devices sometimes are going to the Internet via your neighbors house and this slow WIFI link.
This also explains your disappearing devices - you now have more than 1 DHCP server on the network, and they're conflicting. When a device reboots it may connect to your Router, or to his, depending on luck.

You also casually mention switching the ISP Gateway from Bridge to Router mode - are you sure you understand what this implies? If you have it Bridged, it must *only* connect to your router; if you have it in Router mode with multiple devices directly connected to it, your other router *must* be removed (or you need to disable its DHCP server). Often when making this change you would have to reconfigure all devices on your network due to the IP subnet changing.

Another thing you need to check is Network Loops - you seem to have multiple switches/routers and plug things at will. A single cable wrongly connected can create a loop in the network causing Switches to begin talking to themselves, bringing the whole network to a crawl.

I advise you to sell the EtherREGEN and use the money to hire an IT guy to audit your entire network.

I'll just leave this here, I know it won't convince you:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.10232/

[tuneup]

zybex, both my network and my neighbor's network are secured with passwords. We have not exchanged network passwords nor have we put our Apple phones together to exchange passwords. There is no VPN tunnel between our houses. I didn't mention before that last week I connected my computer by CAT6 to my Comcast gateway and tried to log in using its generic password 10.0.0.1. Instead, I logged into my neighbor's Comcast gateway. Since this was a wired connection, how could it bypass my gateway and go to my neighbor's gateway when there is no wired connection between the two? I cannot be sure at this point whether my gateway was in Router or Bridge mode at that moment. If it was in Router mode, then I suppose that IP address could have gone to either gateway. It has been in Bridge mode all day since the network started working again in the early afternoon and I have not seen any neighbor devices on my network.

When I switched the gateway to Router mode, I switched the eero router to Bridge mode so there was no double NAT (if I am using the correct term) and only one device at a time was performing DHCP.

I trust your IT credentials and I actually have been thinking about having my IT guy come back, since it has been 2-3 years since he last checked out my network and declared it fine. (His company sets up networks for small to medium sized businesses.) The network has changed a lot since then.

I only have one router working at any one time. I need multiple switches because my office contains the NAS, the computer running MC25, a network printer and sometimes an Id when it is working, and a separate home security gateway installed by Comcast (this device receives signal from the office 8-port switch but this gateway communicates only with home security products wirelessly). The living room contains another switch, fed by CAT6 coming from one of the office switch's ports. This switch feeds components in my a/v equipment rack. I have one question. If all my network wires send signals away from the router via the office switch and then away from the living room switch to the rack components, is there still some way to create a loop? None of my cables have both ends plugged into the same switch. Would I have to mis-connect a wire sending signal back towards the router? I know my terminology may not be correct here, since data cables can carry a signal in both directions.

I will read your attached review tomorrow. Yes I am a subjectivist, but I also value measurements.

[AndrewFG]

^
A very insightful post zybex. I pretty much agree with all of your statements. But apropos your comment “there's no way to bridge your home networks over your ISP modems and routers”, I would add the following..

Many ISPs offer a public hotspot service by piggybacking extra WiFi access points on top of their private customer’s modems. This allows them to extend their public network “for free” every time they install a new private customer.

So it’s possible that either you or your neighbour or both are cross connecting via this public hotspot network. (It may even have been set up intentionally as a way of improving qos, or avoiding service call outs, in case one or other modem might drop out).

I am in UK so I can’t speak for Comcast, but over here both BT and Virgin Media do this. They usually don’t want to tell you about it, (stealing from your bandwidth), and usually won’t allow you to disable it.

In my case, on Virgin Media, putting the modem into “Modem mode” does disable the Virgin public hotspot. However as zybex says, you then need a separate router with its own DHCP server. And you need your own WiFi access point (which may be part of that own router).

As zybex says, you need an expert (not from Comcast) to sort that out..

[AndrewFG]

PS if both you and your neighbour have the same Comcast modem, then they will by default use the same LAN subnet mask. This makes it difficult to know if a device is really connected to your LAN or his because superficially it will look the same.

One advantage of using the modem in modem mode, is that you can use your own router, which you can set up to use a totally different subnet mask on your LAN..

[zybex]

I didn't mention before that last week I connected my computer by CAT6 to my Comcast gateway and tried to log in using its generic password 10.0.0.1. Instead, I logged into my neighbor's Comcast gateway. Since this was a wired connection, how could it bypass my gateway and go to my neighbor's gateway when there is no wired connection between the two?

The gateway only has the 10.0.0.1 IP on the LAN side. On the WAN side it's a different one - so you CANNOT connect to his gateway coming from outside with that IP address. The connection would reach YOUR gateway first; if it also has the 10.0.0.1 IP, then it would answer the request. If by some reason it has a different IP address it might try to route the request to 10.0.0.1 to the WAN - but your neighbors' gateway would still not respond to that request because it does not have 10.0.0.1 on the WAN side.
The only way you can reach his gateway is if your PC has a route via the LAN/WIFI to it. So.. perhaps your PC also had a Wifi connection to your home LAN? And via that other supposed WIFI connection to the neighbor, it would reach his gateway. There's no other way, sorry.

I only have one router working at any one time.

But do you also have access points, extenders or wifi repeaters? All it takes is a misconfigured/unconfigured one on each side.

and a separate home security gateway installed by Comcast (this device receives signal from the office 8-port switch but this gateway communicates only with home security products wirelessly).

I'm not familiar with this product, but... does your neighbor also have one? If they share the same network credentials, that could be the missing link.
AndrewFG also mentions above that ISPs frequently add a public WIFI to their routers/gateways. True, but this WIFI network MUST be isolated from the regular home network, so it should not allow any bridging. If it does, then Comcast is reaaaaaaly terrible as this would be a huge security/privacy violation. If this were the case, the proverbial fecal matter would have hit the rotating propeller blades a long time ago.

I have one question. If all my network wires send signals away from the router via the office switch and then away from the living room switch to the rack components, is there still some way to create a loop? None of my cables have both ends plugged into the same switch.

The loop usually requires a cable with both ends connected to the same switch; or 2 cables connecting 2 switches together (without port-aggregation enabled); or 3 cables connecting the switches/repeaters/access points in a loop A<->B<->C<->A; or N cables and N devices forming a loop. If any of those links is not a cable but is instead a Wireless extender/repeater, it's still a link, so that can also form a loop. Even a device with 2 ports (like a NAS), should only have 1 cable connected unless your Switch is properly configured for port-trunking/LACP on the 2 ports. And definitely don't connect each port to different switches when the switches are also connected together.


PS: Comcast does have this multifamily package to connect houses together in some way, though I think it's just a contract bundling multiple house connections. Technically it's likely still the same, FTTH/FTTB/FTTx.

[tuneup]

Yesterday the Comcast guys said they would put in a new line from the sidewalk box to my house and that it would likely happen in a week or two. They also said I didn’t have to be home, but I would be called in advance so I know when they will be coming. Last night I went to bed at 4:10 am after my last Interact post. This morning I am awakened by the door bell at 7:45. (Doesn’t matter that he didn’t call as cell phone was off and I close office door so as not to hear answering machine.) It’s my new cable run! And he asks me to help him because the cable the cable is extremely tight due to it making at least one 90° turn inside my outside wall. So he attaches the new cable very securely to the old one and as he pulls the old end from the sidwalk box end, I push and jiggle the new one from the wall end. I have of course done this hundreds or thousands of times with my installers, but never before in black long Johns and a down parka. It was 30 degrees out this morning. 

gateway only has the 10.0.0.1 IP on the LAN side. On the WAN side it's a different one - so you CANNOT connect to his gateway coming from outside with that IP address. The connection would reach YOUR gateway first; if it also has the 10.0.0.1 IP, then it would answer the request. If by some reason it has a different IP address it might try to route the request to 10.0.0.1 to the WAN - but your neighbors' gateway would still not respond to that request because it does not have 10.0.0.1 on the WAN side.
The only way you can reach his gateway is if your PC has a route via the LAN/WIFI to it. So.. perhaps your PC also had a Wifi connection to your home LAN? And via that other supposed WIFI connection to the neighbor, it would reach his gateway. There's no other way, sorry.

My intuition also says it must be WiFi, but I haven't been able to figure out the route. So thank you very much for engaging in this sleuthing with me.   My desktop PC has no WiFi, only Ethernet.

But do you also have access points, extenders or wifi repeaters? All it takes is a misconfigured/unconfigured one on each side.

Yes. I have an eero mesh network: one eero 6 Pro set in Router mode is wired to the Bridged XB7 gateway in my office. A second eero Pro (not the new 6 model, but they are compatible) is at the far end of the living room. Configuration is automatic via the eero iOS app. Only the first one attached to the gateway is in Router mode. The second (and any additional ones added to a network) is automatically configured as an AP. The 2nd eero connects to the first by WiFi. If it were connected to a living room switch, would that create a loop because of 2-way communication between the eeros on the office and living room switches? eero recommends that only the first/router eero be connected by Ethernet.

I had a Netgear 1200 EoP pair set up between the office and the living room, but that became unreliable so I replaced it with a 50 ft. CAT6. This model doesn't have WiFi, but only a LAN port on each one. More recently I hooked them up again to send a signal to my original living room 8-port D-Link gigabit switch because I needed more than the 4 ports the EtherREGEN provides. This would have the 2 living room switches connected by 2 parallel lines coming from the living room switch, one on CAT6 and the other being the AC powerline. As there is no wired or wireless cross connection between the EtherREGEN and D-Link switches in the living room, I don't think there is a loop there.

I'm not familiar with this product, but... does your neighbor also have one? If they share the same network credentials, that could be the missing link.

He doesn't have a Comcast security router.

AndrewFG also mentions above that ISPs frequently add a public WIFI to their routers/gateways. True, but this WIFI network MUST be isolated from the regular home network, so it should not allow any bridging. If it does, then Comcast is reaaaaaaly terrible as this would be a huge security/privacy violation. If this were the case, the proverbial fecal matter would have hit the rotating propeller blades a long time ago.

On my phone I see an XFINITY (secured network with the words "Connect to Xfinity WiFi here." and I also see xfinitywifi (unsecured) with "Connect to Xfinity WiFi here." I cannot connect to either of them. They don't ask for a password, but just ask me to move closer. Their MAC addresses don't match any of the 3 on the bottom of my Comcast gateway.  They only have medium strength so I suspect they are from neighbor houses, rather than my gateway (there are no businesses near me). I just looked in my Xfinity Hotspot app and the only one showing withn a few blocks is the one in my iPhone. By zooming in on their map I could see my phone moving from one end of my house to the other - ain't GPS grand? So those Xfinity networks may be associated with neighbors' Comcast gateways, but not as public hotspots. The app asked me to join the Xfinity hotspot network and I of course declined.  Before putting the gateway in Bridge mode, I named its WiFi TUNEFINITY and of course that is no longer showing up in my network list. I think this joined-with-neighbor network problem is over for now. Since I put my gateway in Bridge mode, there have been no new appearances of their devices on my network and the old ones have moved down the Recently Online list and disappeared. So I think the transgression was happening on the Comcast TUNEFINITY network and not on the eero network.

The loop usually requires a cable with both ends connected to the same switch; or 2 cables connecting 2 switches together (without port-aggregation enabled); or 3 cables connecting the switches/repeaters/access points in a loop A<->B<->C<->A; or N cables and N devices forming a loop. If any of those links is not a cable but is instead a Wireless extender/repeater, it's still a link, so that can also form a loop. Even a device with 2 ports (like a NAS), should only have 1 cable connected unless your Switch is properly configured for port-trunking/LACP on the 2 ports. And definitely don't connect each port to different switches when the switches are also connected together.

I only have one cable connecting NAS to switch. So I think I'm loop free unless you tell me otherwise. I will hold off calling my IT guy if MC25 keeps working and my network stops crashing. But if things get weird, I will get him over here.

PS: Comcast does have this multifamily package to connect houses together in some way, though I think it's just a contract bundling multiple house connections. Technically it's likely still the same, FTTH/FTTB/FTTx.

That link gives an error message, even with trying some variations on it.

[zybex]

The 2nd eero connects to the first by WiFi. If it were connected to a living room switch, would that create a loop because of 2-way communication between the eeros on the office and living room switches?

If both switches are also connected together with a cable, then yes, that's a loop.

This is fine: [router]---[switch1]---[eero]  ~   ~  [eero]---[switch2]---[otherstuff]

This is bad: [router]---[switch1]---[eero]  ~   ~  [eero]---[switch2]---[otherstuff]
                                          ⸌------------------------------------⸍

(same if switch2 is connected to Router)

Having an IT check out the network might be advisable.

[tuneup]

This is fine: [router]---[switch1]---[eero]  ~   ~  [eero]---[switch2]---[otherstuff]

The above isn't my setup. This is my setup:
[Bridged gateway]---[eero router]---[switch1]-----!!------[switch 2]---[other stuff]
                                    ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~ !! ~  ~  [eero AP)

zybex, everything to the left of the exclamation points is in the office. Everything on the right of it is in the living room.The upper line has wired connections. The lower line has WiFi connection and it starts at the eero router. The eero AP has no wired connection to anything in the living room, but is free-standing. Switch 1 also connects to other stuff in the office.

AndrewFG, thanks for your input.

Many ISPs offer a public hotspot service by piggybacking extra WiFi access points on top of their private customer’s modems. This allows them to extend their public network “for free” every time they install a new private customer.

So it’s possible that either you or your neighbour or both are cross connecting via this public hotspot network. (It may even have been set up intentionally as a way of improving qos, or avoiding service call outs, in case one or other modem might drop out).

I am in UK so I can’t speak for Comcast, but over here both BT and Virgin Media do this. They usually don’t want to tell you about it, (stealing from your bandwidth), and usually won’t allow you to disable it.

In my case, on Virgin Media, putting the modem into “Modem mode” does disable the Virgin public hotspot. However as zybex says, you then need a separate router with its own DHCP server. And you need your own WiFi access point (which may be part of that own router).

I suspect the 2 Xfinity networks I mentioned in 2 posts back to zybex may well be public hotspot add-ons. They are definitely different from my TUNEFINITY1 WiFi network that I set up and which becomes visible when I disable the gateway Bridge mode and move it to Router mode. But neither of those other ones allow me to join it, so they don't feel very public. I just put the gateway in Router mode to check 2 things. 1. I can see that my neighbors' devices are connected to TUNEFINITY1 along with my devices. When I go back to Bridge mode, they disappear. They also don't appear on my eero router connected device list. 2. I wanted to compare subnet masks with the eero.

PS if both you and your neighbour have the same Comcast modem, then they will by default use the same LAN subnet mask. This makes it difficult to know if a device is really connected to your LAN or his because superficially it will look the same.

One advantage of using the modem in modem mode, is that you can use your own router, which you can set up to use a totally different subnet mask on your LAN.

The two gateway modems have the same LAN subnet mask (255.255.255.0). My eero router already has a different subnet (255.255.240.0) so I don't have to change it. (Unless you say that isn't sufficiently different.) Since the neighbor devices show up only on the Comcast network when my gateway is in Router mode and never show up there or in the eero network when the Comcast is in Bridge mode, I suspect you are right about the identical subnet masks of the Comcast gateways being the cause of the cross connection, rather than the hotspot idea. You may have read where I said that Comcast wanted to grab my iPhone hotspot and make it part of their network, but at least they asked my permission.

It appears that the gateway was in Router mode much of the time I thought it was in Bridge mode. This is because of a poor GUI design. They neglected to add the letter "d" at the end of "Enable" and "Disable" in the Bridge Mode buttons. When I see a green Enable button, it says to me that I should press that button in order to enable Bridge mode. But in fact it means that Bridge mode is already enable(d). And when I see a red "Disable" button, it says to me that I should press that button in order to disable Bridge mode. But in fact it means that Bridge mode is already disable(d). So most of the time, I thought it was in Bridge mode because I saw the red Disable button, when in fact it was in Router mode. I finally got this straightened out when the Comcast guys were here yesterday. See screenshots below. As long as the gateway stays in Bridge mode, I should have no further cross-connection problems with my neighbor. (Praying now.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xc6zpv52p4skurl/Screenshot%202021-01-27%2003.01.19.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjacc1o4xoo950o/Screenshot%202021-01-27%2003.09.23.png?dl=0

[zybex]

Alright, let's hope it works now. If not... get that IT guy.

[JimH]

It appears that the gateway was in Router mode much of the time I thought it was in Bridge mode. This is because of a poor GUI design. They neglected to add the letter "d" at the end of "Enable" and "Disable" in the Bridge Mode buttons. When I see a green Enable button, it says to me that I should press that button in order to enable Bridge mode. But in fact it means that Bridge mode is already enable(d).

This is why I love my job so much.

[tuneup]

 

Thank you all for your generous help and time. It has been a good educational experience for me.

zybex, I will continue our conversation about EtherREGEN over at audiosciencereview within the next few days. Meanwhile, now that I have a functioning network again, I've got to get out some invoices.