Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[elsalvador99]

Hi Guys,

I wonder if someone can help me find a simple way to do this please.

I have a bunch of files which are multi-channel, probably DTS encoded, but have a WAV file extension.
With Foobar or VLC that isn't a problem, they both recognise it as 6 channels & play all 6 channels despite the filename extension.
MC doesn't.  For some reason it will only recognise the files as 2 channels, entirely because of the .wav extension.

Long testing ensued, converting to FLAC, then re-importing, works, and after many hours of faffing it occurred to me a shortcut...
Change the file extension to .dts & the same file works in MC as multi-channel. Great.

Now how do I go about doing this in the most efficient manner?
I found an easy-ish way to rename the file extensions in all of the subdirectories, but now MC doesn't know about them & has lost the original .wav files, so I have to re-import, re-tag and re-apply the cover art.
I already did it once, spending many hours getting it right.
Serioulsy not something I want to do all over again.

I can export the library into XML and edit all the file references - easy, but there's no tool to re-import it.
I have tried the (very impressive) array of Library Tools, but there's none to do this job.

Can someone please suggest how I can tell my whole library that "if it's says filename.wav just use filename.dts instead"
Thanks in advance, much appreciated.
Sal.

[zybex]

You can change the [Filename] field for those files. You may also have to change the [File Type] to match.

0. Make a library backup!
1. disable "run auto-import in the background"
2. rename the actual files outside of MC
3. select the files you want to fix in MC (the files you just renamed)
4. in the Tag Panel, find the "Filename" tag; it should say "varies"
5. Set it to "=replace([Filename],.wav,.dts)"
6. Find the [File Type] field and set it to "dts"

Done.

[glynor]

You could skip step 2 and do the rest and MC will automatically actually rename the files on disk for you.

If your files are on a slow disk though (particularly a network volume) then you should probably do it zybex's way though as it'll take forever and in that instance MC can screw it up (and it gives almost no feedback during the process).

But, if your files are on a fast, locally mounted drive (like a RAID volume or something) then you can totally skip step 2.

[zybex]

Thanks, I didn't know that.

I just tested, and it apparently also tries to rename other related files. In my test case, I had 2 SRT files with the same name as the main file and it tried to rename both... to the same name. So a popup showed up asking if I wanted to overwrite one of them. Not nice for many files, and unexpected behavior.

[wer]

I have tried the (very impressive) array of Library Tools, but there's none to do this job.

In fact, JRiver has the Rename Move & Copy Files tool.
Read this: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Rename,_Move,_and_Copy_Files

There are four operations (checkboxes) on the dialog. Enable (check) only the Find & Replace operation, and find/replace .wav to .dts

It's as simple as that. No faffing about.

[zybex]

It doesn't work for the file extension, Wer.
replace([Filename],.wav,.dts) results in a file called "trackfilename.dts.wav". MC seems to add the original extension to any renaming operation.

[elsalvador99]

Hi Zybex & Glynor

Thanks for the extremely quick replies.
It looks very promising, I feel we're almost there...and yet maybe not!

I tried the rename string in the advaced - filename field (the one which says [varies] )
It did work, but it changed the file location to 4x repeated strings of the original location...

Also I changed the file type to DTS, (individually to prove the concept)
Also I just renamed the filename in the library, (individually to prove the concept)
Also did the above & fixed the parth name, (individually to prove the concept)
Also I tried the library rename tool - and agreed it doesn't do file extensions.

While each of these looked like it might have worked, it didn't fix the number of channels in the listing.
That only happens when I re-import the renamed files.

Thanks for the help, but I think something else needs to change in the library database, and that something else would probably work without the renamed file extensions, but I guess as users we can't get at it...

Unless of course, someone knows differently...I'm still an optimist!
;-)
Sal

[wer]

I tested RMCF with changing just the extension.  It worked.

[glynor]

I just tested, and it apparently also tries to rename other related files. In my test case, I had 2 SRT files with the same name as the main file and it tried to rename both... to the same name. So a popup showed up asking if I wanted to overwrite one of them. Not nice for many files, and unexpected behavior.

Ack! I wonder why the heck it would be doing that? I'd expect that in the RMCF tool (if the "also rename blah blah blah" was enabled) but...

Maybe sidecar and cover art handling are mucking it up?

In any case, to the OP, if you just want to get it done, my MCFileIngester tool (part of MCAutoQueue) will do it. It isn't really designed for that (it is for replacing existing files with new rips/versions) but it'd handle renaming files too. You would, however, have to first rename them yourself on disk (step 2 in zybex's original steps).

[glynor]

I tested RMCF with changing just the extension.  It worked.

I'd think it would work, and was surprised zybex said it wouldn't. It certainly used to (though it used to work just renaming [Filename] too).

That's the way to go then. It'll do it all in one fell swoop. I just tested it too and it worked fine.



Then you just have to change the [File Type] field for the files as already explained by zybex above.

[glynor]

It doesn't work for the file extension, Wer.
replace([Filename],.wav,.dts) results in a file called "trackfilename.dts.wav". MC seems to add the original extension to any renaming operation.

I can't even get MC to let me edit [Filename] with multiple files selected anymore! Editing seems to be completely disabled on that field once multiple files are selected. Are you sure you were working on the full [Filename] field, and not one of the components like [Filename (Name)] when testing, zybex? If so, how did you get it to let you edit it? I tried in both the Tag AW and inline in the details-listing.

But, with a single file selected (which is pointless) it worked fine with =Replace([Filename],.wav,.dts). It renamed my file on disk and didn't double-up the extension.

In any case, apparently that doesn't work anymore for multiple files. But, RMCF does.

[zybex]

Gaaah, it does work with the Find&Replace option as shown in the screenshot. I was just trying with the "Filename" checkbox.

[wer]

There are four operations (checkboxes) on the dialog. Enable (check) only the Find & Replace operation, and find/replace .wav to .dts

It's as simple as that. No faffing about.

Which is exactly what I said in my original post.

[zybex]

I tried the rename string in the advaced - filename field (the one which says [varies] )
It did work, but it changed the file location to 4x repeated strings of the original location...

Are you sure you're editing the [Filename] and not the [Filename (name)] field? The expression I gave was for [Filename].

You can also do it on the [Filename (name)] field with "=replace([Filename (name)],.wav,.dts)". Maybe this is safer.

Anyway, perhaps the best way is the F6 tool as shown in Glynor's screenshot.

[glynor]

Gaaah, it does work with the Find&Replace option as shown in the screenshot. I was just trying with the "Filename" checkbox.

Oh, yeah, that won't work, as it omits the file extension (identical to [Filename,0]).

I should note: It is good that they disabled editing of [Filename] inline when multiple files are selected. That's a recipe for disaster if you accidentally select a big pile of files and type something dumb in the box trying to overwrite everything with the same filename.

I just never noticed that they had done that. You used to be able to do it, but they "safe-d it up".

[wer]

There's a problem with the OP's approach, though.

If you tell MC that the file is the wrong type (telling it is .dts instead of what it actually is) it seems to break MC's ability to read some tags properly.  Telling MC that a FLAC file is a DTS file prevents MC from reading the album art, for example.

Since multichannel WAV files are allowed, I think there is something broken or non-standard about the OPs files, that makes MC think they are 2-channel files.  He said he tried converting, but I bet he tried converting in MC; that might not work with these files.

I suggest converting a file to FLAC using a different utility, and then importing it into MC, to see if MC then picks up the channel count properly.  Or post one of the problematic files so we can look at it.

[glynor]

Are you sure you're editing the [Filename] and not the [Filename (name)] field? The expression I gave was for [Filename].

Right. How did you get it to let you edit [Filename] when multiple files are selected?

When I select multiple files (so that [Filename] lists "Varies") it totally disables editing. I can't slow-click or F2 or anything to get it to let me edit the field.

[zybex]

Actually I just tested on 1 single file, didn't want to mess my library
You may be right, maybe doesn't work with many files.

Edit: it seems to work on [Filename (name)]

[glynor]

There's a problem with the OP's approach, though.

If you tell MC that the file is the wrong type (telling it is .dts instead of what it actually is) it seems to break MC's ability to read some tags properly.  Telling MC that a FLAC file is a DTS file prevents MC from reading the album art, for example.

Since multichannel WAV files are allowed, I think there is something broken or non-standard about the OPs files, that makes MC think they are 2-channel files.

This is true. I was assuming that the OP knows that these WAV files ARE actually valid DTS files, and that for some reason MC's handling of them as WAV files (incorrectly) was causing the screw up.

You also wouldn't just want to mass-apply this to your entire Library and change all of your (real) WAV files to DTS extensions, to be clear. You should only do this if they're currently incorrectly named WAV instead of DTS and this is mucking up MC's handling of the files (which is entirely possible, I don't have any to test).

[wer]

I just realized: the OP is suggesting the files could "probably" be DTS.  If that is true, they actually ARE two channel files.  MC would have to apply DTS decoding during the conversion to upmix them to 5.1. I've never tried that.

So Elsalvador, if you're caught up, the bottom line is:  You and Zybex were mistaken, and the RMCF tool DOES work for this, when used as I described, and that is the best way to handle the rename.  But this is probably not the best thing for you to do.  There's probably an issue with the files themselves that needs to be addressed instead.

Elsalvador, post a problematic file somewhere so we can examine it.

[glynor]

I just realized: the OP is suggesting the files could "probably" be DTS.  If that is true, they actually ARE two channel files.  MC would have to apply DTS decoding during the conversion to upmix them to 5.1. I've never tried that.

Yep. I think that's what is going on. I used to have some of these from the long-long ago, and I think changing the extension to DTS was the easiest way to get MC to treat them as DTS-encoded files (and automatically decode the encoding properly) without having to muck with its handling of normal WAV files.

If I'm not mistaken, that's what the DTS extension actually is: just WAV files, but ones that have DTS encoding. Kinda like a M4V or M4A are just MP4 files that "supposedly" are video or audio files.

My memory is very vague though, as I converted them to multichannel FLAC files in the slightly less long-long ago.

[wer]

Maybe. But I don't have a DTS-encoded WAV file to test with.

[elsalvador99]

Hi to All,

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for their input - like always, it's been enlightening!

As a techie, I find it's always fascinating top find out new things like this.
As always - a bit more digging is always needed to fins out the real info.
The suggestion to "examine the file" was very helpful, and I did so using "mediainfo", on two example files:
Audio      testfile.dts
Format                                   : DTS
Format/Info                              : Digital Theater Systems
Duration                                 : 4 min 25 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 510 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 5 channels
Channel layout                           : C L R Ls Rs
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 93.750 FPS (512 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 47.7 MiB (100%)


Audio      testfile.wav
Format                                   : DTS
Format/Info                              : Digital Theater Systems
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 3 min 40 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 411.2 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
Channel layout                           : C L R Ls Rs LFE
Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
Frame rate                               : 43.066 FPS (1024 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 37.1 MiB (100%)

So The WAV file really is DTS encoded with multiple channels.
I also applied a new MC trick I recently learned is to look at the little cog wheel while the file is playing to tell me what MC is actually doing with the file.
And - most interestingly - it IS playing 6 channels, according to the "Audio Path" info.
I have yet to listen to sufficient to see if my ears agree.

So the question changes to "why does the 'channels' field show 2 instead of 6 ?"
If the file is 6 channels, and it plays 6 channels, then it's just a glitch?

I'm going to listen to a few files & see.
Meanwhile I need to put back all of the WAV files again and restore the backup of the database!

Thanks for all the notes, didn't realise it would generate such a vibrant discussion!
TTFN
Sal

[wer]

I have yet to listen to sufficient to see if my ears agree.

I hope we didn't spend all this time just because of the channels column. Everyone (I think) thought your were saying MC was only PLAYING two channels; that you only heard two channels.

It is shocking that you're saying you never even tried listening to these files to tell the difference, or that there could be any uncertainty about whether you are hearing sound from 2 or 6 speakers.  Put your ear up against each speaker and find out.

Stop everything else and immediately use your ears (and look at the analyzer module) and tell us how many channels are playing.

If you're just taking about the channel column listing "2" that's because regular dts encoded files ARE PHYSICALLY TWO CHANNEL FILES.

Google what DTS actually is. I won't waste more time other than to say it is a method for encoding multchannel audio in 2 channels, so that it can be transmitted over a 2 channel transport, like TOSLINK.

Mediainfo is showing you the decoded channel count.  I think MC has long shown the physical channel count in the column because it that point it hasn't run it through the decoder. There were some changes made in Audio Path recently to clarify this.

If MC plays it correctly, I'd expect it to convert it correctly.

Let us know how your listening goes.  Hopefully there's no actual problem here. 

[elsalvador99]

Hi All,

I'm sorry if anyone thinks this was a waste of time, that was certainly not my intention, and I really don't think it hs been as people will find this useful as it highlights an interesting "feature" of MC. That's the point of the forum.
I do appreciate all the input from this forum, and this thread especially.

I've obviously ended up in a cul-de-sac of confusion because of the overlaying of two issues.
1. I wasn't getting 6 channel audio out of my system - which has now been fixed by one of the brilliant brains helping out in the forum.
2. The "channels" column in the database being incorrect - sometimes.

The first issue clouded all of my testing of the audio files, and was consistent with the fact that the "2 channel" WAV files were only audible in 2 channels.
I DID test my files by listening to them, shame the audio output was giving me false result which appeared to match the value in a field called "channels".

From all the very helpful posts in this thread, I think I now understand what's going on.
On import, I think MC maybe assumes a file is 2-ch because WAV extension, possibly without evaluating the content & puts "2" in the channels field.
Importing EXACTLY the same file with DTS extension produces the value "5" or "6" in the channels field, as it it probably evaluating the content.

Despite the value "2" in the channels field, the file is correctly played with 6 channels out - using my new-found understanding of the "audio path" information pop-up.

So I refer back to my previous note - is there any way to adjust/correct that channels value in the database?
Actual reason for asking is to differentiate between the stereo content in the database & the multi-channel content.

I could put a specific text or numerical value in an otherwise unused TAG field identifying the multi-channel files.
It doesn't seem like the right answer, but it would be a pragmatic alternative to deleting, renaming, re-importing, re-tagging, & reapplying artwork to a lot of files.

NB - the answer "Nope" is fine, just asking!
(I've worked with databases all my working life, hence my direction of thoughts like "importing the XML would be useful").

Thanks again to all, much appreciated
Sal

[wer]

I was referring to these comments, where you said you had not listened enough to know if it was playing 6 channels or 2:

...
And - most interestingly - it IS playing 6 channels, according to the "Audio Path" info.
I have yet to listen to sufficient to see if my ears agree.
...
If the file is 6 channels, and it plays 6 channels, then it's just a glitch?
...
I'm going to listen to a few files & see.

And since listening to just 1 file immediately differentiates between 6 channels and 2 channels....

Despite the value "2" in the channels field, the file is correctly played with 6 channels out - using my new-found understanding of the "audio path" information pop-up.

This statement is a bit confusing, because whether you look at the Audio Path information or not does not in the smallest degree affect what sound comes out. It is an informational display.  This statement makes it seem like you were only able to determine the file plays correctly by looking at the Audio Path. 

You should, and must, be able to tell by listening 6 channels from 2 without looking at audio path. I'm sure you'd agree.

So to to clarify, can you please confirm:

1. When MC indicates 6 channels you actually hear 6 channels.
2. When MC indicates 2 channels on the DTS encoded files named WAV you only hear 2 channels

Please positively confirm or contradict the above.

If you only hear 2 channels with one of the WAV-named DTS files, please make an example file available for examination.
This would be a file that mediainfo says has 6-channel DTS, but MC plays as 2 channels.

So I refer back to my previous note - is there any way to adjust/correct that channels value in the database?

The [Channels] field is not user editable. It is determined by MC when the file is imported. It is re-assessed by MC when the operation "Update library from tags" is performed on the file.  Other than that it does not change.

So here's the thing:
I've already explained why the channels field says what it says.  Not being able to distinguish visibly is an annoyance, I agree, and I think it should be corrected, but it hasn't been corrected yet.  DTS files are not new, but they are rare.

The more important issue here, that everyone has been trying to address for you, is the playback of files containing 6-channel DTS-encoded audio that are named WAV and thus show 2 channels in the interface.

If you hear 6 channels of music, it is decoding the file properly.
If you hear 2 channels of actual music, instead of 6 channels, MC is not decoding the file properly.
If you hear garbage or distortion or nothing, it is not decoding the file at all.

So the what and why of that needs to be assessed.  Everything is supposed to work properly, since MC has supported DTS in WAV since MC16.  So is there a bug, or are your files bad?

I can't see how further progress can be made without a sample file.

[glynor]

I've already explained why the channels field says what it says.  Not being able to distinguish visibly is an annoyance, I agree, and I think it should be corrected, but it hasn't been corrected yet.

Yeah. I think it is, perhaps, a "difference of opinion" on what it should say there. Those DTS-encoded WAV files are actually two channels (stereo PCM). That's what the container holds, and that's what the files are, and if you play them on something that can't play DTS, it should play stereo just fine (sometimes you hear distortion if your decoder and/or crossover setup isn't set quite right, but generally it should work).

If I'm not wildly mistaken, DTS (just like Dolby Digital which is Dolby's name for the same thing) encodes the other 3.1 channels in a relatively-low-quality lossy format in the otherwise "unused" parts of the spectrum of the two-channel PCM WAV file (the parts of the waveform too high or low for human hearing). So they ARE two-channel PCM files. They only "turn into" 6-channel files if you run them through a DTS decoder.

The file type "DTS" is not a different container than WAV. They're still stereo WAV files, that have just been given the "wrong" extension. By this, you're just telling the application (via the filename extension) that there is definitely DTS audio embedded in there. So, if MC imports a DTS file, it actually bothers to try to render it and figure out how many channels it "really" has hidden in the two channels of PCM. If it imports a WAV, it shows what the WAV file actually IS... Which is right?

I'd say there are valid opinions on both sides. The simplest solution is to just change the filenames to .DTS for any of these you have, and update MC's Library, and it'll show the "real" number of channels. (Which is what the OP came here originally to find out how to do, and we answered that.)

[glynor]

PS. It probably isn't even necessary to actually change the physical filenames if you don't want to. Changing [File Type] in MC itself and then doing Library Tools > Update Library from Tags might fix it.

[wer]

Those DTS-encoded WAV files are actually two channels (stereo PCM). That's what the container holds, and that's what the files are, ...

I agree, and said exactly that in an earlier post.

The simplest solution is to just change the filenames to .DTS for any of these you have, and update MC's Library, and it'll show the "real" number of channels.

IF it's actually playing correctly, which we still need confirmation on.  But actually, the renaming shouldn't be necessary. The wiki says DTS-encoded wav is supported with either extension.
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DTS_WAV
It has an explicit statement either extension can be used.

There was actually a change made in .56 to fix the display of DTS channel count, but I'm not sure if that was only for video files or not. But it came out of this issue being discussed before.

[glynor]

I agree, and said exactly that in an earlier post.

Yup. I think I explained it better though (in case anyone else didn’t get it). 

Really, though, I was just reiterating that to make my further point about it not quite being clearly “wrong” currently in MC (and therefore needing to be fixed). It could go either way, is all I was saying.

[wer]

Well, I think the wiki article implies that something may be wrong. It could be the OP's report, or his files, or MC processing. We need clarification and a file to be sure.

This issue of problems when working with DTS encoded files comes up often enough though.

Like I said, the renaming shouldn't be necessary. But regardless, converting to multichannel flac might be a better long term move. That at least would be a highly compatible and tagable file.

[glynor]

But regardless, converting to multichannel flac might be a better long term move. That at least would be a highly compatible and tagable file.

Yup. That's what I did with all of mine I think.