INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: 64 kHz Sample rate  (Read 2591 times)

hvi

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
64 kHz Sample rate
« on: November 24, 2021, 07:58:15 am »

Hi Matt,
Please make a gift for the holidays: add to DSD Studio | Sample rate value 64000 Hz
Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7804
  • Autumn shade...
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2021, 08:05:22 am »

Hi Matt,
Please make a gift for the holidays: add to DSD Studio | Sample rate value 64000 Hz

I have never seen a DAC or onboard audio or encountered any files or anything else that supported sample rates of 64 kHz. I know it exists but I've never seen any real world examples. It's almost always 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, etc. I don't imagine this would be very popular due to how uncommon it is and unless the audio is 64 kHz to begin with, there's really no point or any actual benefit to resampling 44.1 kHz or anything else to 64 kHz, IMO. It's the same with other uncommon sample rates like 50 Hz, there's really no point.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

hvi

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2021, 07:16:41 am »

For some reason HQPlayer 64 kHz has a Sample rate
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3118
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2021, 09:33:39 am »

64K is a bit rate used for podcasts and talk radio. Is that what you are thinking about? That is different than sample rate.
Logged

blgentry

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8014
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2021, 06:49:32 am »

I think the OP means that HQPlayer has an option for DSD playback which can select the Filter Cutoff Frequency.  HQPlayer apparently supports a value of 64kHz for this filter.

Brian.
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3118
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2021, 07:36:52 am »

If a 64k low pass filter is desired for DSD to PCM, that can be set in DSP studio Parametric Equalizer.  A filter at 50k can be selected in Configure input plug-in. 
Logged

hvi

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2021, 04:55:38 am »

24 bit 64 kHz is a full-fledged format that has a whole set of advantages over the 24 bit 48 kHz or 88 kHz format.
Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7804
  • Autumn shade...
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2021, 05:42:35 am »

24 bit 64 kHz is a full-fledged format that has a whole set of advantages over the 24 bit 48 kHz or 88 kHz format.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that claim. First, I've never seen a single 64 kHz file in the wild nor have I seen any 64 kHz files for sale so I'd say this claim is highly doubtful. Second (and most importantly) I've never seen any apps that can record and export audio as 64 kHz either so if this claim actually had some merit to it, you'd think 64 kHz would be more widely supported by hardware and software but it's not. Finally, the only realistic way you'd be able to get 64 kHz files is by resampling existing audio files (e.g. converting 44.1 kHz to 64 kHz) and as you hopefully know you can't add any new audio data to the file if the audio data is not there to begin with so there's literally no benefit doing conversions like this. Ultimately this claim just sounds like another would-be audiophile myth to me, in my opinion.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3118
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2021, 07:24:24 am »

24 bit 64 kHz is a full-fledged format that has a whole set of advantages over the 24 bit 48 kHz or 88 kHz format.

Please explain or give us a link to a discussion of this format. Where do you get files in this format? What DAC do you play it on?
Logged

Matt

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 42372
  • Shoes gone again!
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2021, 08:03:40 am »

I made the build that's out now support resampling strange sample rates by picking the closest match.  It will make 64 kHz files playable.
Logged
Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

hvi

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2021, 10:38:10 am »

Hi Matt,
In which build will this be implemented. Now 64 kHz is converted to 48 kHz , but if it is difficult to add a separate 64 kHz line, then at least make the conversion to 88 kHz.
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3118
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2021, 10:50:13 am »

Hi Matt,
In which build will this be implemented. Now 64 kHz is converted to 48 kHz , but if it is difficult to add a separate 64 kHz line, then at least make the conversion to 88 kHz.
You are asking JRiver to make changes to the program but refuse to explain the use of this 64K sample rate format. Personally, I think they should ignore you until you can justify this format. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here and nobody knows about this format. I did a lot of google searching and cannot find any discussion of 64K sample rate. IMO, it is time for you to explain your requests.
Logged

Hendrik

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10933
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2021, 10:53:23 am »

We talked about adding separate lines, and decided against it, instead we made sure it would play at all.

If anything its an obscure niche format, and no one sample rate has any particular advantage over any other. There is no mathematical or otherwise theoretical reason why 64k would be better then eg. 88.2k. You can make the argument higher is better, so 64k is better then 44.1 or 48, but why not go to the standard 88.2 or 96 then if you need more?
Logged
~ nevcairiel
~ Author of LAV Filters

hvi

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2021, 11:30:58 am »

I have already given the arguments, the complete absence of interference above 32 kHz. Look at what you have in the ultrasonic spectrum and it all goes to your amplifier. It is good if there is a filter there, and if the amplifier band is several MHz. This format is very good for storage because the file sizes are small. The sound of files in this format is almost identical to the 24/88 format, but significantly exceeds the 24/48 format. Isn't that enough.
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3118
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2021, 11:43:13 am »

I have already given the arguments, the complete absence of interference above 32 kHz. Look at what you have in the ultrasonic spectrum and it all goes to your amplifier. It is good if there is a filter there, and if the amplifier band is several MHz. This format is very good for storage because the file sizes are small. The sound of files in this format is almost identical to the 24/88 format, but significantly exceeds the 24/48 format. Isn't that enough.
With all due respect, you did not explain your reasoning before. 

Now, where do you get 64K files and what DAC do you use to play them?
Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7804
  • Autumn shade...
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2021, 12:50:18 pm »

Yeah, if 64 kHz is better than 44.1 kHz, where all the 64 kHz digital downloads for sale?

I'm sorry, but this is a waste of time if you ask me. There's no reason anyone should be using 64 kHz, and it looks like the majority of hardware and software would agree with that, instead supporting the standard sample rates (44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, etc.). 64 kHz is not a standard (and never will be) and the majority of hardware and software don't and won't support it. Besides, if you actually care about this, why not use 96 kHz instead, which is three times 32 kHz? Surely that's better then, right? ;) And honestly storage really isn't a good argument anymore either, as both hard drives and even SATA SSDs with large capacities are reasonably cheap. I think this is what would be called a solution in search of a problem.

Besides, if JRiver adds support for 64 kHz then somebody will eventually ask for 50 kHz, then 50.4 kHz, then 47.2 kHz and other exotic/uncommon sample rate under the sun. Where would it stop? IMO, gotta draw the line somewhere.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

hvi

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2021, 11:02:31 pm »

It is a pity that 64 kHz causes such a strong rejection. Still, this is a standard frequency as opposed to 50.4 kHz or your previous 50 Hz. For me, JRiver is the best player.
Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7804
  • Autumn shade...
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2021, 02:52:15 am »

Still, this is a standard frequency as opposed to 50.4 kHz or your previous 50 Hz.

Uhh, no it's not, it's not a standard at all. If it was, there'd actually be 64 kHz files out there in the wild but there's not.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

EnglishTiger

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2021, 03:05:29 am »

I can't help wondering why they went for 64, which to me seems Bit Related, and not 1.5 x 44.1 (66.15)
Logged
Apple Mac Mini Desktop Computer with M4 Pro chip with 12 core CPU and 16 core GPU: 24GB Unified Memory, 512GB SSD Storage, Gigabit Ethernet, 3 Thunderbolt5 + 2USBC ports.

hvi

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2021, 03:20:05 am »

Well, I even agree with you, but let there be such a standard 64 kHz, it's too good a frequency.
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3118
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2021, 06:59:17 am »

Still waiting for a response - where do you get 64KHz files and what DAC plays them?  My guess is that you need to upsample or downsample standard files to produce them and then the output to the DAC is at one of the standard sample rates. If I am wrong, please explain.

If 64KHz is a standard, what other players support this sample rate?
Logged

hvi

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2021, 07:56:01 am »

The thing is that not all DAC can play 64 kHz, so we need another line Sample rate 64000 Hz to set the DAC frequency you need (88, 96, 176 ...). I have come across DACs running on 64 kHz only Creative.
JRiver normally play 64 kHz together with Creative.
HQPlayer also converts 64 kHz to any desired frequency. If you are interested in 24 bit/64KHz sound, it converts Sox well. However, there are many such programs.
Logged

Ashfall

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2021, 08:19:29 am »

This guy is an obvious troll unless he provides a link where one can obtain 64kHz files. (that he didn't manually create).
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3118
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2021, 08:53:16 am »

HQPlayer has a very different design philosophy from JRiver. It moves the oversampling and sigma-delta processing that most DACs use into software, so that the user has more control over the processing parameters. As such, resampling is a normal part of its workings.    If you accept the premise of HQPlayer, then resampling and upsampling is just routine. As such, resampling to 64 KHz is just a normal process, although to a somewhat unusual rate.

JRiver takes a different approach and processes in the normal sample rates that DACs use and therefore 64KHz is a complete outlier. JRiver leaves the oversampling and sigma-delta processing to the DAC.

There are arguments for both approaches. But it seems like changing JRiver to accommodate a sample rate that does not fit its core structure makes little sense.  If 64KHz indeed becomes a widely used sample rate, then JRiver will probably need to incorporate it. But, I doubt that 64KHz will ever become a standard. DAC manufacturers are just not likely to add another sample rate into their products, especially those who use separate clocks for 44 and 48 KHz multiples. In JRiver's case, 64KHz a sample rates seems like nothing more than a way to save disk space, at the cost of lossy resampling and a more complex data path.

If the OP is wed to the 64KHz format, then, IMO,  JRiver is not the player for him.

Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72438
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: 64 kHz Sample rate
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2021, 09:05:33 am »

Expect no change.

Closing this now.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up