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[JHR]

Hi folks,

I've got a real head scratcher here--there may be a bug in the way MC28 handles multichannel playback.

I'm playing multi-channel video (from a Windows MC 28 server--but that shouldn't matter) on a 2020 M1 Mac Mini, Mc 28, and I seem to have no center channel information playing in a 5.1 setup--but all other channels work!

I hope someone can help (searching the forum for center channel doesn't reveal anything, unfortunately).

I am using HDMI to get the multichannel output to my AV receiver (Yamaha). I have set up the Midi channels app on the Mac, and am letting JRiver MC pass them through (original source channels, though I have tried to let MC mix to the center as well). This has always worked just fine before (2012 Mac Mini).

I currently have a 5.1 hardware setup: left, right, sub, right rear, and left rear, and center. All the channels work but the center channel. It doesn't matter what the source is, if there's a center channel it doesn't play.

How can this be? I'm on Monterey (newest) and MC 28.0.87

I checked each speaker with the Midi app on the Mac, and it tests fine. It's on "channel 4" of the multi-channels, and when I click the speaker item, it sounds just fine.

-->If I go to MC DSP Studio, and click the checkbox to let MC bounce the center information to the left and right channels, then I hear the information, so it *is* being processed! But it's not getting to the center somehow!

On my 2012 Mac Mini, MC 28 audio worked fine, and I wouldn't have changed it, except I now have a 4k TV and the 2012 Mac mini isn't capable of driving even 2k content.

I understand the new HDMI limitations of the M1 Mac Mini (there is only 48kHz output), but those don't extend to center channel playback, I don't think.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've tried everything I can think of, but it just doesn't work.

[bob]

Hi folks,

I've got a real head scratcher here--there may be a bug in the way MC28 handles multichannel playback.

I'm playing multi-channel video (from a Windows MC 28 server--but that shouldn't matter) on a 2020 M1 Mac Mini, Mc 28, and I seem to have no center channel information playing in a 5.1 setup--but all other channels work!

I hope someone can help (searching the forum for center channel doesn't reveal anything, unfortunately).

I am using HDMI to get the multichannel output to my AV receiver (Yamaha). I have set up the Midi channels app on the Mac, and am letting JRiver MC pass them through (original source channels, though I have tried to let MC mix to the center as well). This has always worked just fine before (2012 Mac Mini).

I currently have a 5.1 hardware setup: left, right, sub, right rear, and left rear, and center. All the channels work but the center channel. It doesn't matter what the source is, if there's a center channel it doesn't play.

How can this be? I'm on Monterey (newest) and MC 28.0.87

I checked each speaker with the Midi app on the Mac, and it tests fine. It's on "channel 4" of the multi-channels, and when I click the speaker item, it sounds just fine.

-->If I go to MC DSP Studio, and click the checkbox to let MC bounce the center information to the left and right channels, then I hear the information, so it *is* being processed! But it's not getting to the center somehow!

On my 2012 Mac Mini, MC 28 audio worked fine, and I wouldn't have changed it, except I now have a 4k TV and the 2012 Mac mini isn't capable of driving even 2k content.

I understand the new HDMI limitations of the M1 Mac Mini (there is only 48kHz output), but those don't extend to center channel playback, I don't think.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've tried everything I can think of, but it just doesn't work.

I'd make sure that the auto configuring of DSP studio is disabled in MC's options.
Is the source material 48k or is it being processed by either the server or Mac to get it to 48k? All material must be 48k to play through HDMI.

When on Mac it's usually useful to turn off integer mode and exclusive access to start with when testing.

[JHR]

Thanks Bob!

--I made sure "Audio...advanced...autoconfigure output settings on playback error" was set to "no"
--All DSP studio resolutions in DSP studio are set to 48kHz
--DSP studio is set to "source number of channels" though I've tried setting it to 5.1
--Source material is 48kHz

I'm absolutely stymied by this. Like I said, if I set it to 5.1, and "Move Center to Front L/R" then it does exactly that.

So there is sound, just no center channel. Sounds like some weird mapping issue to me! 

[bob]

I'll try duplicating it unless some other Mac multichannel guru chimes in.
It's a bit of a pain with the way that my computer and audio systems are setup.

[JHR]

Thanks so much Bob! I truly appreciate you trying this out!

[HaWi]

Thanks Bob!

--I made sure "Audio...advanced...autoconfigure output settings on playback error" was set to "no"
--All DSP studio resolutions in DSP studio are set to 48kHz
--DSP studio is set to "source number of channels" though I've tried setting it to 5.1
--Source material is 48kHz

I'm absolutely stymied by this. Like I said, if I set it to 5.1, and "Move Center to Front L/R" then it does exactly that.

So there is sound, just no center channel. Sounds like some weird mapping issue to me!

trying to help because 5.1 over HDMI (No way to do Multi Channel over DLNA) works for me, albeit in audio mode. If you set "Move Center to Front L/R" wouldn't you expect the Center speaker to be silent?
If I set to 5.1 everything, even the 2 channel tracks, play on all speakers. If I set "source number of channels" then only the original 5.1 mixed tracks play 5.1. The 2-channel tracks then play 2.1 (because my receiver will send anything at ≤ 200 HZ to the Woofer. I always have "Move Center to Front L/R" unchecked
Might there be a difference in how Video sound is handeled vs Audio only?

[bob]

trying to help because 5.1 over HDMI (No way to do Multi Channel over DLNA) works for me, albeit in audio mode. If you set "Move Center to Front L/R" wouldn't you expect the Center speaker to be silent?
If I set to 5.1 everything, even the 2 channel tracks, play on all speakers. If I set "source number of channels" then only the original 5.1 mixed tracks play 5.1. The 2-channel tracks then play 2.1 (because my receiver will send anything at ≤ 200 HZ to the Woofer. I always have "Move Center to Front L/R" unchecked
Might there be a difference in how Video sound is handeled vs Audio only?

Yes, I'm pretty sure that is the case.

[JHR]

Hmmmm. I will check multichannel audio and let you know

At this point all I know for sure is that MC28 works differently on an M1 Mac than on the older 2012 Mac mini.

There’s no reason why the centre channel—which is being delivered—shouldn’t be coming through the actual centre channel speaker

@HaWi—just to clarify—when properly set up there is no centre channel playing—in some movies that means they’re just silent!

The only reason I set MC to bounce the centre to L/R speakers was to prove the information was actually coming through the system I didn’t expect the centre speaker to work at that point

[JHR]

Ok, so I checked multi-channel audio output. FWIW--Pink Floyd 5.1 Dark Side of the Moon--and no joy. It's the same: no center channel, but working sub, left, right, LR and RR. So I have, currently, for some weird reason, a working 4.1 setup :/

That's looking like a JRiver MC flaw. Since the 5.1 speaker test works from the Mac Midi app, and the signal *is* being sent, there's gotta be a bug in the way JRiver is handling things...

BTW @HaWi, this is not with any Mac--like the ones in your sig My Intel Mac Mini worked fine (but doesn't support the video stream I want). This is just with the 2020 M1 Mac Mini.

[bob]

Ok, so I checked multi-channel audio output. FWIW--Pink Floyd 5.1 Dark Side of the Moon--and no joy. It's the same: no center channel, but working sub, left, right, LR and RR. So I have, currently, for some weird reason, a working 4.1 setup :/

That's looking like a JRiver MC flaw. Since the 5.1 speaker test works from the Mac Midi app, and the signal *is* being sent, there's gotta be a bug in the way JRiver is handling things...

BTW @HaWi, this is not with any Mac--like the ones in your sig My Intel Mac Mini worked fine (but doesn't support the video stream I want). This is just with the 2020 M1 Mac Mini.

Please turn on logging (Help->Logging) and try to play the audio 5 track file.
Then do report problem. You can send me the zip file
bob (at) jriver (dot) com

On Mac, MC extensively logs the audio device open. This could be useful for finding the issue.

[JHR]

Please turn on logging (Help->Logging) and try to play the audio 5 track file.
Then do report problem. You can send me the zip file
bob (at) jriver (dot) com

On Mac, MC extensively logs the audio device open. This could be useful for finding the issue.

Thanks Bob, will do!

[HaWi]

Ok, so I checked multi-channel audio output. FWIW--Pink Floyd 5.1 Dark Side of the Moon--and no joy. It's the same: no center channel, but working sub, left, right, LR and RR. So I have, currently, for some weird reason, a working 4.1 setup :/

That's looking like a JRiver MC flaw. Since the 5.1 speaker test works from the Mac Midi app, and the signal *is* being sent, there's gotta be a bug in the way JRiver is handling things...

BTW @HaWi, this is not with any Mac--like the ones in your sig My Intel Mac Mini worked fine (but doesn't support the video stream I want). This is just with the 2020 M1 Mac Mini.

Got it. Seems to be an issue with the specific hardware not doing what it's supposed to do.

[JHR]

Hi Bob--

Definitely this is a bug in JRiver MC 28 and the M1 Mac mini. Log file is on its way to you!

--Tried audio with Quicktime--all channels play (the song "Money" has center channel information right up at the beginning of the track).
--Tried video with Quicktime (don't know why I didn't think of that before!)--all channels play properly.
--Tried audio and video with MC 28: no center channel output with MC 28

[bob]

I looked at your logs and I see nothing wrong.

Did you try the channel offsets in MC's audio device settings?

[JHR]

I looked at your logs and I see nothing wrong.

Did you try the channel offsets in MC's audio device settings?

I did not, but I will now

[JHR]

Hi Bob,

Ok, so I've tried the "channel offset" values of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8.

Offsets 1, 2, 3 just remove the LF speaker and engage the center in terms of response, but not in terms of center channel content. There *may* be more center channel info presented but it's a bit hard to tell, though it sounded like it's emerging from the absolutely wrong speakers (the rears?!).

Anything over offset 3 = no sound whatsoever; DSP studio reports "not using JRiver audio engine"

Despite what the logs show, it seems this is clearly a bug in the way MC handles multichannel audio. I don't know why it would be specific to the M1, but as I said, QuickTime multichannel works (for MP4 containers and FLAC; QuickTime won't play any MKV containers). 

Using MC 28.0.89 now FWIW.

[bob]

I'm testing it here now.
Since it works on intel I doubt it's a MC bug. Perhaps an API version bug.

[bob]

Tested with my Sony amp.

Intel 10.15 is fine.
M1 12.1 reverses the subwoofer and center channel.

I need to track down whether it's the Mac API version or OS version.

[JHR]

Tested with my Sony amp.

Intel 10.15 is fine.
M1 12.1 reverses the subwoofer and center channel.

I need to track down whether it's the Mac API version or OS version.

Thanks so much Bob!

FWIW, I also just confirmed that the native M1 build of the VLC player also plays multi-channel local and networked audio and video audio correctly (even video hosted by an MC server through UPnP). 

[bob]

Thanks so much Bob!

FWIW, I also just confirmed that the native M1 build of the VLC player also plays multi-channel local and networked audio and video audio correctly (even video hosted by an MC server through UPnP).

The channels are shown as swapped in Audio Midi Speaker configuration. Not sure exactly what this means as far as the API goes yet.

[JHR]

The channels are shown as swapped in Audio Midi Speaker configuration. Not sure exactly what this means as far as the API goes yet.

Interesting--I see that they appear "out of order" in the speaker setup section of the Audio Midi app, too, where the Center is 4 but appears before the Sub which is 3. But I tried switching the center and sub (so sub was "4" and center "3" instead of the other way around)--restarted MC, and MC still doesn't output a signal to the center channel speaker.

[bob]

Go into MC's DSP studio.
Parametric equalizer 2
enable that and switch the channels there.
I tried and it works fine.

The old way is standard ordering. I don't know why they changed it on the M1. Probably related to the hardware.

[JHR]

Go into MC's DSP studio.
Parametric equalizer 2
enable that and switch the channels there.
I tried and it works fine.

The old way is standard ordering. I don't know why they changed it on the M1. Probably related to the hardware.

Thanks Bob--that's the workaround that worked! Cheers!

But what a weird thing to have to do!

[AGAWA]

There is another weird thing.
I have 4 speaker setup and do not want to have 2 channel music copied to rear speakers.
In DSP , when speakers are set to 4 " For stereo sources only mix to 2.1 " is grey out and there is no way to tick it.
However, there is a workaround.
I set speakers to 5.1,  tick " For stereo sources to 2.1", return to 4 speakers and the entry is greyed again but with the tick and no copy to rears is being done,
No big deal, but took me some time to find the workaround.

Is there any particular reason in your advice to use Parametric Equalizer 2 and not 1?
For playing 4 channel recordings and MDG SACD 2+2+2 in my 4 speaker setup I use Parametric Eq 1 to exclude Center and Sub in the mix down.

[bob]

There is another weird thing.
I have 4 speaker setup and do not want to have 2 channel music copied to rear speakers.
In DSP , when speakers are set to 4 " For stereo sources only mix to 2.1 " is grey out and there is no way to tick it.
However, there is a workaround.
I set speakers to 5.1,  tick " For stereo sources to 2.1", return to 4 speakers and the entry is greyed again but with the tick and no copy to rears is being done,
No big deal, but took me some time to find the workaround.

Is there any particular reason in your advice to use Parametric Equalizer 2 and not 1?
For playing 4 channel recordings and MDG SACD 2+2+2 in my 4 speaker setup I use Parametric Eq 1 to exclude Center and Sub in the mix down.

That's an interesting trick.
Does it actually do what you want?
Do you have a sub? I'm not sure I get the point of mixing to 2.1 in that situation.
I just used param eq 2 because I was doing different stuff in param eq 1. Either works.

[AGAWA]

Bob,
Yes, it does and I was happy to find this trick.
We had discussion on this subject some time ago;
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,129485.msg898660.html#msg898660

I do not have Sub; just 4 speakers as old Quad setup. Center speaker comes from home theater and music can do without it.
Thank you for explanation of param eq 1 and 2.

I'm and old man with my roots in very early Stereo  (1957) and Quad.
Still have the first classical stereo LP's dated 1957. AF - Audio Fidelity; I guess that they still exist and reissue quad on SACD's

[bob]

Bob,
Yes, it does and I was happy to find this trick.
We had discussion on this subject some time ago;
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,129485.msg898660.html#msg898660

I do not have Sub; just 4 speakers as old Quad setup. Center speaker comes from home theater and music can do without it.
Thank you for explanation of param eq 1 and 2.

I'm and old man with my roots in very early Stereo  (1957) and Quad.
Still have the first classical stereo LP's dated 1957. AF - Audio Fidelity; I guess that they still exist and reissue quad on SACD's

Good to hear!

I remember when quad first came out, it was pretty exciting and the local music store had several titles.
Unfortunately the cost of a quad turntable and amp was beyond my means!

[JHR]

Good to hear!

I remember when quad first came out, it was pretty exciting and the local music store had several titles.
Unfortunately the cost of a quad turntable and amp was beyond my means!

I just wanted to say that though I'm dating myself, I remember when Quad (including synthesized quad!) became a "thing" too Good to know JRiver can do those tricks!

Now if I could only understand the gamma settings with the new JRiver video engine (some of my higher resolution content looks "dark" on my new TV)... but that's another topic!