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[macdonjh]

I have a really weird issue I hope somebody can help me with.  I use MC28, and recently noticed all of my Roadrunner and Coyote cartoons are messed up.  Mind you, it's only cartoons with both the Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote, not cartoons with Wile E. Coyote trying to catch another animal for lunch.  Not with movies or other TV shows either.

The weirdness is the video is "jumpy".  It appears as if the video is playing "two frames up, then one frame back".  The picture is not pixellated but sharp, it's just the on-screen motion is staccato.  So far as I know, the only thing to change in the past month or so is I enabled Media Server and this weird "jumping" happens whether I watch a Roadrunner cartoon through my server or client computer.

Any ideas?  Any other information I should provide to help troubleshooting?

[comox]

VLC is a popular free media player known to be compatible with Roadrunner cartoons.
If VLC does not play smoothly then your video is corrupt.
If VLC does play smoothly then you should request JRiver to make MC compatible with Roadrunner.

[Scobie]

Is your server made by Acme?

[macdonjh]

VLC is a popular free media player known to be compatible with Roadrunner cartoons.
If VLC does not play smoothly then your video is corrupt.
If VLC does play smoothly then you should request JRiver to make MC compatible with Roadrunner.

I have VLC but haven't tried playing the Roadrunner cartoons with it yet.  They used to play smoothly with MC (so this is a new thing), and it's even more bizarre to me that ONLY Roadrunner cartoons are "rough".  I don't have trouble with any other video files. 

[macdonjh]

Is your server made by Acme?

  That's funny.  I'd think my hardware would pick on Wile E. Coyote rather than the Roadrunner.  FWIW: NAS is QNAP, server computer is Dell, client computer is Acer.

[Scobie]

Do the cartoons have a specific format that the others do not? Check the codecs in VLC to see if they are different in any way from ones that do play

[macdonjh]

Do the cartoons have a specific format that the others do not? Check the codecs in VLC to see if they are different in any way from ones that do play

No, all cartoons were ripped using MakeMKV to .mkv.  I swear, this is really weird. 

[zybex]

Do you have MC/MadVR automatically changing the refresh rate to match the file being played? Perhaps those files are not 30/60Hz files and so you see the pulldown/pullup juddering?

Please hit CTRL+J during play and capture a screenshot of the stats, there may be clues there.

[macdonjh]

Do you have MC/MadVR automatically changing the refresh rate to match the file being played? Perhaps those files are not 30/60Hz files and so you see the pulldown/pullup juddering?

Please hit CTRL+J during play and capture a screenshot of the stats, there may be clues there.

I have my Video configured for Red October JRVR.  I'll get a screen shot in a little while and post it here.

[macdonjh]

Here is the screen shot, at least sort of. Are the dropped and repeated frames the problem?

[zybex]

Hint: you can press Shift+WIN+S key combo to take a screenshot. The screenshot can be then seen via the icon on the Windows notification area, and you can save it to a file. Or just CTRL+V to paste it anywhere.

Yes, the dropped/repeated frames are a symptom, especially if they keep going up. Looks like JRVR doesn't print the source frame rate, so I can't really tell, but it looks like you're playing on a Laptop screen with a fixed 60Hz refresh rate. Any video that is not a multiple of that (ie, PAL/25Hz or Film/24Hz content) will need to be adjusted in speed by dropping or repeating frames, causing visual jumps in fast moving scenes. You can check the "FPS" tag in MC for that file to see the source refresh rate (frames per second).

MC can automatically change the screen's refresh rate to match the content being played, but that's usually not possible on a cheap laptop screen.

@Hendrik, can you please add the source refresh rate to JRVR debug info?

[macdonjh]

Hint: you can press Shift+WIN+S key combo to take a screenshot. The screenshot can be then seen via the icon on the Windows notification area, and you can save it to a file. Or just CTRL+V to paste it anywhere.

Yes, the dropped/repeated frames are a symptom, especially if they keep going up. Looks like JRVR doesn't print the source frame rate, so I can't really tell, but it looks like you're playing on a Laptop screen with a fixed 60Hz refresh rate. Any video that is not a multiple of that (ie, PAL/25Hz or Film/24Hz content) will need to be adjusted in speed by dropping or repeating frames, causing visual jumps in fast moving scenes. You can check the "FPS" tag in MC for that file to see the source refresh rate (frames per second).

MC can automatically change the screen's refresh rate to match the content being played, but that's usually not possible on a cheap laptop screen.

@Hendrik, can you please add the source refresh rate to JRVR debug info?

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Thanks for the tip about screen shots in Windows.  Since it's more than two keys, I'm sure I'll forget it.   

For the screen shot I posted I was using my Client computer, which is a cheap Acer laptop.  I looked at a few of my Looney Tunes files and it appears all of them are 29.97 FPS (really, 29.97?).  Which continues to make this weird since only the Roadrunner cartoons skip and jump even though the Bugs Bunny cartoons play smoothly.  I should also note the problem shows up when using my Server laptop (a newer Dell with a bit more horse power but not a supercharged computer by any means) which feeds our antique plasma TV.

I also looked at an episode of a different TV show and a movie.  Both of those files have 29.97 FPS as well.  Perhaps that's the way MakeMKV encodes?

I'll watch one of the video files which gives me trouble and see if the skipping/ jumping gets worse the longer the file plays.  I think the "repeat" and "skipped" numbers did increase as I watched that cartoon for the screen shot.

[blgentry]

29.97 frames per second is actually the correct refresh rate for standard NTSC (TV before HD).  Similarly, the "film" frame rate of 24 fps is actually 23.976 when it is intended for display on "TVs". I just checked one of my BluRay rips and indeed it shows as 23.976 (with some more decimals after that).

It's weird. Especially when you start editing video.  But you will continue to see 29.97 if you keep digging into consumer video.

Brian.

[macdonjh]

Thanks for that. Seems weird, the math is so much easier at 30 or 24 FPS. Only weirdos want to carry all those decimals.

[dtc]

Not sure if it relevant here, but from Wikipedia

"An added technical problem is that the popular Matroska (.mkv) video container format allows novice users to declare that 23.976 video is 24.000, and this can result in codec conversion errors with concomitant video stuttering (due to frame "dropping" and "cloning") and loss of audio sync."

[macdonjh]

In that case, I'm glad I never mess with the .mkv settings and simply use MakeMKV as a ripping program. 

MakeMKV also has a video editing program I tried once (not with any of the media files being discussed in this thread), but I couldn't figure out how to use it.  The instructions and support website resisted all my attempts to understand it.

[zybex]

Thanks for that. Seems weird, the math is so much easier at 30 or 24 FPS. Only weirdos want to carry all those decimals.

There are of course technical reasons. 29.97 is actually 30x1000/1001. You can blame the invention of NTSC color TV standard -- they needed to make it compatible with the existing black&white TV sets (which worked at 60fps), but the added color signal caused visible interference on a B&W TV. So they changed the frequency slightly to hide the interference. They picked an offset factor of 1000/1001 as being enough to hide the interference pattern and still make the signal work on newer and older TVs. So 60x1000/1001 = 59.94 fields per second interlaced, or 29.97 full images per second.

When 24fps film plays on an NTSC carrier it's also converted by the same factor, so 24x1000/1001 = 23.976.

[macdonjh]

I remembered to look at one of my Road Runner/ Coyote cartoons this morning.  The skipped/ repeated frame count does increase continually from the beginning to the end.  Does that mean anything?

I also tried the CTRL-J when viewing a TV episode I recently ripped which plays smoothly.  No pop-up window with statistics appeared.  Does anyone know what that is?

Is there anything I can do to recover/ repair my Road Runner cartoons?

[zybex]

I remembered to look at one of my Road Runner/ Coyote cartoons this morning.  The skipped/ repeated frame count does increase continually from the beginning to the end.  Does that mean anything?

It means your screen refresh rate doesn't match the video being played, so it needs to skip/repeat frames to play it at a normal speed. These possible account for the jumping you see. It's more obvious in panning/scrolling scenes.

I also tried the CTRL-J when viewing a TV episode I recently ripped which plays smoothly.  No pop-up window with statistics appeared.  Does anyone know what that is?

Perhaps you are using Red October Standard, not JRVR.

Is there anything I can do to recover/ repair my Road Runner cartoons?

On a laptop screen with fixed refresh rate, no.
On a TV or monitor that supports it, you need to enable the automatic refresh rate change in MC settings (Video->Display Settings-> Automatic Change Mode).

The cartoons are not damaged, you're just not using suitable hardware to play them at their intended speed. It's like asking to fix the color on a monochrome TV.

[macdonjh]

It means your screen refresh rate doesn't match the video being played, so it needs to skip/repeat frames to play it at a normal speed. These possible account for the jumping you see. It's more obvious in panning/scrolling scenes.

It still seems weird to me I only notice it with these specific cartoons, not with TV shows or movies.

Perhaps you are using Red October Standard, not JRVR.

I checked my black laptop, and I've set it to Red October, JRVR.  I'll check my silver laptop later.
[EDIT] I looked, I am using Red October, JRVR on my silver laptop, too.

On a laptop screen with fixed refresh rate, no.
On a TV or monitor that supports it, you need to enable the automatic refresh rate change in MC settings (Video->Display Settings-> Automatic Change Mode).

I see it.  On my black laptop (not connected to a TV, only the monitor) I'm still given the option to turn Automatic Change on, or to set it to Custom.  From what you wrote I'll guess I could turn Auto Change on and it wouldn't do any good on this laptop.  On my silver laptop, which obviously has its own screen, but is also connected to a pre-pro via HDMI, will MC know what refresh rate to use, or do I need to choose one?

What does the Custom option do?

[EDIT] I looked and Automatic Change is OFF on both my black laptop and silver laptop.

The cartoons are not damaged, you're just not using suitable hardware to play them at their intended speed. It's like asking to fix the color on a monochrome TV.

Thank you for your help.  Sorry to keep harping on this, I'm happy to learn about the video playback aspect of MC.  It still seems weird I only have this problem with a very specific and limited subset of my video files. 


[EDIT] I did do some reading in the Wiki and clicked through some of the options available in the Video Settings.  If I were to use:
Tools -> Options -> Video -> Display Settings -> Display Settings automatic change mode Custom
I could choose NTSC and be given a bunch of options.  Are those options the resolution of the monitor or TV I'm using?

I think the TV I use has a refresh rate of 60 Hz, but I'll look that up.  I still have my earlier question above: on my silver laptop, which has both its "internal" monitor and an HDMI connection to a pre-pro, will MC be able to figure out which setting is required on its own?  Do I need to know the refresh rate of my TV, make the appropriate setting for my TV (which may make the monitor display worse which I don't care about)?

[zybex]

If you enable the 'automatic change mode' option, then MC should change the refresh rate when needed on whatever is the current output screen. With Red October HQ (which uses MadVR) it's possible to go into the MadVR settings and set the modes for each individual screen separately, but it's not a trivial thing to do. So... stick with JRVR and just enable that option. Do not use 'custom', just turn the option ON. If you use custom, you need to set ALL the options below, not just NTSC.

You keep wondering why only those cartoons are affected. You can easily check the [FPS] field of your video files to see if the Roadrunner ones are different from the rest. Just open the Video->Files view, add the FPS column and check which files are 30/60 fps and which are not (29/59Hz is the same as 30/60). All 30/60 fps files should play smoothly on your laptop, all other files will be jumpy.

I think the TV I use has a refresh rate of 60 Hz, but I'll look that up. 

What you're looking for is the Vertical Refesh Rate of the TV, and that's usually a range like 24-75 Hz or a list of valid Resolution vs Frequency settings, not a single number. The purpose of the "automatic change mode" is to set the TV to the appropriate frequency for the file being played when the playing starts.

[macdonjh]

If you enable the 'automatic change mode' option, then MC should change the refresh rate when needed on whatever is the current output screen. With Red October HQ (which uses MadVR) it's possible to go into the MadVR settings and set the modes for each individual screen separately, but it's not a trivial thing to do. So... stick with JRVR and just enable that option. Do not use 'custom', just turn the option ON. If you use custom, you need to set ALL the options below, not just NTSC.

You keep wondering why only those cartoons are affected. You can easily check the [FPS] field of your video files to see if the Roadrunner ones are different from the rest. Just open the Video->Files view, add the FPS column and check which files are 30/60 fps and which are not (29/59Hz is the same as 30/60). All 30/60 fps files should play smoothly on your laptop, all other files will be jumpy.
What you're looking for is the Vertical Refesh Rate of the TV, and that's usually a range like 24-75 Hz or a list of valid Resolution vs Frequency settings, not a single number. The purpose of the "automatic change mode" is to set the TV to the appropriate frequency for the file being played when the playing starts.

I haven't done anything as comprehensive as looking at the FPS tag in a View, but I did check a few random video files, and those I checked were 29.97 FPS and play smoothly.  Hence my confusion about these few video files.

Thank you for that clarification.  I thought the automatic change would work the other way around: change the FPS being sent to the display to match its native refresh rate. 

I'll try turning the automatic change mode on and see what happens. 

Thanks again to everyone.

[blgentry]

I may have a clue for you.  According to this link, original Looney Tunes was drawn at 12 frames per second:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/2keey5/how_many_frames_per_second_was_looney_tunes_drawn/

Then it was doubled to 24 fps, which is the standard for film.  If you have it at 29.97, then you have something sourced for TV.  The conversion from 24 to 30 (or 29.97) is non-exact and requires a 2:3 sequence where frames are blended.  This 2:3 creates a classic effect called "judder" where big moving things (like panning shots) seem to jump a little during what should be a smooth pan.

The only solution I know of is to find a proper 24 fps source for material like this.  I have had numerous DVDs at 30fps that look pretty bad on big panning shots.  When I bought them on BluRay with a proper 24 fps, all was right with the world and they looked glorious.

All of this is based upon the information from that Reddit thread.  If that's wrong, then my conclusion is probably wrong also.

Here's some possibly very good news.  Archive.org has legal copies of many older works including books, TV shows, and movies.  They are like a library in a digital sense.  Turns out the entire collection of the Road Runner is there.  I just downloaded one episode and it's in 24 fps.

I believe these are 100% legal to download, much like the complete works of Shakespeare and many other older works that are royalty free.  I'll leave it to you to find a link; it's not very difficult.

Brian.

[macdonjh]

I may have a clue for you.  According to this link, original Looney Tunes was drawn at 12 frames per second:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/2keey5/how_many_frames_per_second_was_looney_tunes_drawn/

Then it was doubled to 24 fps, which is the standard for film.  If you have it at 29.97, then you have something sourced for TV.  The conversion from 24 to 30 (or 29.97) is non-exact and requires a 2:3 sequence where frames are blended.  This 2:3 creates a classic effect called "judder" where big moving things (like panning shots) seem to jump a little during what should be a smooth pan.

The only solution I know of is to find a proper 24 fps source for material like this.  I have had numerous DVDs at 30fps that look pretty bad on big panning shots.  When I bought them on BluRay with a proper 24 fps, all was right with the world and they looked glorious.

All of this is based upon the information from that Reddit thread.  If that's wrong, then my conclusion is probably wrong also.

Here's some possibly very good news.  Archive.org has legal copies of many older works including books, TV shows, and movies.  They are like a library in a digital sense.  Turns out the entire collection of the Road Runner is there.  I just downloaded one episode and it's in 24 fps.

I believe these are 100% legal to download, much like the complete works of Shakespeare and many other older works that are royalty free.  I'll leave it to you to find a link; it's not very difficult.

Brian.

Thank you for the lead.  I will look for archive.org.

[atreides]

This is really an important issue because I love Roadrunner.

[macdonjh]

Thank you for the lead.  I will look for archive.org.

Searching for archive.org took me to The Wayback Machine.  Is that where you intended to steer me?  I searched there for things related to the Road Runner and didn't find anything.

[tzr916]

https://archive.org/details/soup-or-sonic
41 free downloadable mp4 files!

[macdonjh]

https://archive.org/details/soup-or-sonic
41 free downloadable mp4 files!

Wow! Thank you very much. I think I searched for Fast and Furrious but didn't get a hit. Obviously I need to up my search game for Archive.com.

[dtc]

https://archive.org/details/soup-or-sonic
41 free downloadable mp4 files!

Downloaded and work for me. Thanks.

[macdonjh]

I also got copies.  Thank you again.

[blgentry]

Do these 24fps version of Road Runner look correct?  Different than the 29.97 versions?

Brian.

[macdonjh]

Do these 24fps version of Road Runner look correct?  Different than the 29.97 versions?

Brian.

I've watched only a couple of the forty-one files I downloaded.  Neither has skipped/ stuttered like the files I originally asked about in my original post.  Video quality is variable, but neither was pristine.  Audio quality is mediocre/ That said, after searching for other Looney Tunes cartoons at Archive.org, I'm sure there are other options for downloading these particular cartoons available if you choose to work a bit harder.  It's a fun site to browse.  Thanks, tzr916.