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[Mr. Vegas]

Personally, I think the decision is very important and it's good that JRVR is being further expanded. As already mentioned, the video area is a constantly evolving topic.
In addition, the integrated madVR, as far as I can see, has not received any updates since 2018, as the company now sells its software together with hardware.
So I see a big plus for JRVR for the future of JRiver.

[bogdanbz]

"HDR10+ Gaming" uses "Source Side Tone Mapping" based on dynamic scene data - this is practically the same as using the new HDR to HDR tone mapping mode in JRVR. Actual metadata passthrough to enable "Sink Side Tone Mapping" is not supported in any (public) API, neither from Microsoft or NVIDIA. Not that anyone I have ever spoken to could find. MS has a stub of an API with no documentation that just takes a binary blob, and according to MS engineers its not implemented at all.

Ah, I see, that's unfortunate! Thank you for the explanation!

[murray]

Im currently using MC30 and have now bought MC31, so very much looking forward to testing the new features being introduced. Since I’m a projector user I haven’t moved across 100% to JRVR as madvr still offers me features better suited for my large 145” curved scope screen.

First off I want to ask about the new “adaptive” sharpening you are adding, is it the same as the madvr “adaptive sharpen”?
I have tested “adaptive sharpening” in madvr many times over the years but still prefer my current settings, maybe complex for some to get their head round.
I currently use “image enhancements” and “upscaling refinement” in madvr and can produce a very beautiful clean image. I have three profiles, three separate profiles where I have created different sharpening settings , soft, sharp and HDR. I use Command Fusion on the ipad which allows me to set one of the three sharpening settings depending on the quality of the film.

Now we all know that probably little to no sharpening would be required on smaller Oleds etc etc, however when you have a projection screen of 145” like mine one certainly does. However all the sharpening tools have to be used with care or else the image can look very digital and introduce heaps of artifacts!

BTW I use Windows 10, 3080 video card and upscale everything to 4K using the JVC NZ9, Isco IIIL anamorphic lens, and a cineslide to hold the lens which moves in and out for 16:9 or scope. I have motorised side masking with four ratios all with automated stops, 4:3, 16:9, 1.85 and ScopE.

My question is….
1.   It looks like the “adaptive sharpening” in MC31 will not contain specific areas of the image like madvr, sharpen edges, crispen edges, thin edges, enhance detail, correct?
2.   When Ive tested “adaptive sharpening” in madvr without any of the others, its sharpens all parts of the image, is this correct?
3.   If I start to use JRVR rather than madvr on MC31, will I still be able to have three profiles, 1,2 and 3 for sharpening that I can incorporate into Command Fussion on the ipad?

My images below really explain it all.

Im excited about the new changes especially geometry correction, will explain further in new separate posts….

[mattkhan]

1.   It looks like the “adaptive sharpening” in MC31 will not contain specific areas of the image like madvr, sharpen edges, crispen edges, thin edges, enhance detail, correct?
2.   When Ive tested “adaptive sharpening” in madvr without any of the others, its sharpens all parts of the image, is this correct?

can't be sure but I think this post still applies -> https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133812.msg933099.html#msg933099

i.e. you'll need to wait for custom shader support to get the array of options you want

3.   If I start to use JRVR rather than madvr on MC31, will I still be able to have three profiles, 1,2 and 3 for sharpening that I can incorporate into Command Fussion on the ipad?

JRVR profiles are rule (i.e. content) based in the same way zoneswitch is, I don't believe there is currently any way to change this on the fly (except manually by opening the settings screen)..

[murray]

can't be sure but I think this post still applies -> https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133812.msg933099.html#msg933099

i.e. you'll need to wait for custom shader support to get the array of options you want
JRVR profiles are rule (i.e. content) based in the same way zoneswitch is, I don't believe there is currently any way to change this on the fly (except manually by opening the settings screen)..

Maybe Hendrick might explain the "ins and outs" of adaptive sharpening...
I need to wait for custom sharder support to get what I want, can you please explain what does this mean?
So it looks like I will never be able to use three different sharpness settings without opening settings page. If thats the case this wouldnt work for me as popping up a menu in the middle of a movie would certainly kill the experience.

[mattkhan]

It means you being able to add whatever shaders you want rather than only being able use whatever is bundled. Many other players support such a thing (eg MPC, MPV).

e.g. here's an adaptivesharpen filter (not sure it's what jriver uses) https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172131

there's a bunch of other similar threads around

So it looks like I will never be able to use three different sharpness settings without opening settings page. If thats the case this wouldnt work for me as popping up a menu in the middle of a movie would certainly kill the experience.

not sure I'd say never, you'd need to ask for the feature and see if it gets implemented

there are plenty of MCC commands for various things after all so doesn't seem impossible to me

[Hendrik]

We are not going to write a custom shader for processing. It requires a lot of time and effort investment in a field I'm not an expert in (video dsp theory). If there is a high quality post processing shader available, we can look into using them if it makes sense to have their functionality as default.

Adaptive Sharpen itself really doesn't have any more user-facing options than the strength (called curve height in the shader).

[mattkhan]

I thought you planned to add support for user controlled custom shaders? This is what I was referring to rather than something you would add

[JimH]

Some of this is in the first public build Matt just posted.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,135824.0.html

[bogdanbz]

Many thanks for the new JRVR features added!

[jmone]

not sure I'd say never, you'd need to ask for the feature and see if it gets implemented

there are plenty of MCC commands for various things after all so doesn't seem impossible to me

I agree, either a request for MCC commands or in JRVR Profiles --> Profile Selection Rules allow selection based on a User Assigned keypress should do the trick. 

[JNW]

Maybe Hendrick might explain the "ins and outs" of adaptive sharpening...
I need to wait for custom sharder support to get what I want, can you please explain what does this mean?
So it looks like I will never be able to use three different sharpness settings without opening settings page. If thats the case this wouldnt work for me as popping up a menu in the middle of a movie would certainly kill the experience.

Adaptive sharpen tries to sharpen blurry edges the most whilst doing the least sharpening for very sharp edges and flat areas.

The adaptive sharpen used is this:
https://gist.github.com/igv/8a77e4eb8276753b54bb94c1c50c317e

Optimal sharpening strength (according to objective metrics) - 0.5 (default setting)

Hendrik was kind enough to give us a box where we can adjust the strength up and down easily without editing the actual shader.

[Hendrik]

Note that for settings handling reasons, our strength is multiplied by 100 if that wasn't obvious. So 0.5 in the script is 50 in the settings.

[murray]

Adaptive sharpen tries to sharpen blurry edges the most whilst doing the least sharpening for very sharp edges and flat areas.

The adaptive sharpen used is this:
https://gist.github.com/igv/8a77e4eb8276753b54bb94c1c50c317e

Optimal sharpening strength (according to objective metrics) - 0.5 (default setting)

Hendrik was kind enough to give us a box where we can adjust the strength up and down easily without editing the actual shader.

Thank you for answering my initial question.

[mattkhan]

a couple of quality of life enhancements, it would be nice/convenient if....

.. the currently active profile is selected for you in the JRVR settings dialog when that dialog is opened while playback is active

.. geometry correction is applied to the OSD

I'm guessing the latter can be filed under "never going to happen" but you never know

[danbez]

Hendrik, any chance to see the FEL layer being properly consumed as well? I know it's a long shot, but perhaps a DoVi-baker kind of approach but done at playback time?

[JimH]

Split Geometry Correction Comes to New Zealand

[murray]

And I've only had a few hours with it, cant wait for a full day to test some of my 3000 BD rips 

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, any chance to see the FEL layer being properly consumed as well? I know it's a long shot, but perhaps a DoVi-baker kind of approach but done at playback time?

We're looking into it, but figuring out all the moving parts needs a lot of effort, so it may happen eventually, but probably not right away.

[SamuriHL]

Still, the fact that you're looking at it is awesome.  There's nothing that isn't properly licensed that can touch the FEL right now.

[danbez]

Still, the fact that you're looking at it is awesome.  There's nothing that isn't properly licensed that can touch the FEL right now.

Fully agree! Thanks a lot Hendrik!

[jmone]

I can see when in the JRVR OSD that some of my movies are HDR10+ but I don't see the corresponding info in the HDR Format Feild.  Is this a current Limitation?
Thanks
Nathan

[lepa]

Mine is populated

[jmone]

Mmmm... I just get "HDR10-compatible" nothing about "HDR10+"

[lepa]

Maybe mine is filled earlier with mediainfo solution. Can't right now do re-analyze to verify

[jmone]

Been testing the HDR Tonemapping with "Use HDR Dynamic Peak Detection (enables Dynamic Tone Mapping) and it is working really well.  Knocks down some of the specular highlights on 4000nit content when playing to a 1000nit screen much better than the monitor does.  Keeps detail where the monitor seems to just clip.  Nice work! 

[jmone]

Maybe mine is filled earlier with mediainfo solution. Can't right now do re-analyze to verify

Could be, I reanalyzed all video at one point and I don't have any listings for HDR10+

[SamuriHL]

One of the fun tests to play around with is the Spears and Munsill UHD disc.  The new version is due out a week from today.  I've got mine preordered and it'll be here next Monday.  When I was looking at lots of madvr tonemapping options, the previous version of the disc was great at identifying issues.  Since I'll have both versions (the first version was not overly well mastered which has a tendency to break DTM algorithms LOL) I'll be able to compare and look at the results.  The big question is how much detail is retained on 4000+ nit content.  From what I can tell in just playing around, it's VERY good so far.  Looking forward to stress testing it a bit.

[lepa]

Could be, I reanalyzed all video at one point and I don't have any listings for HDR10+

Nope, just cleared HDR Format field and I still get HDR10+ after MC video analysis

[audioriver]

The list above is not necessarily exhaustive, and if there are any requests for topics we have worked on in the past, or new ones, they will be considered. I might have forgotten something just now when making the list, so feel free to remind us as well.

Smooth Motion

[eve]

One of the fun tests to play around with is the Spears and Munsill UHD disc.  The new version is due out a week from today.  I've got mine preordered and it'll be here next Monday.  When I was looking at lots of madvr tonemapping options, the previous version of the disc was great at identifying issues.  Since I'll have both versions (the first version was not overly well mastered which has a tendency to break DTM algorithms LOL) I'll be able to compare and look at the results.  The big question is how much detail is retained on 4000+ nit content.  From what I can tell in just playing around, it's VERY good so far.  Looking forward to stress testing it a bit.

Thanks for the heads up about the new version!

[jmone]

Up I'll be looking for the new Spears and Munsil as well!

[murray]

Can I just ask a few questions about FSRCNNX 16 please....

Ive used madvr NGU Very High now for years and years, now we have adaptive sharpening I feel FSRCNNX 16 with a small amout of sharpening is giving me superior results to NGU Very High.

But Im so green with FSRCNNX 16 and after doing lots of searching I cant find much on it in laymens terms.

1. How many years has FSRCNNX been out for?
2. I hear there is many different implementations of FSRCNNX, some better than others they say... Is FSRCNNX 16 the best version out there today?
3. Is there ever any possibility that FSRCNNX 16 could even be improved?

Thanks in advance for helping me understand the "ins & outs" of FSRCNNX.

[Hendrik]

FSRCNNX is a neural network based algorithm. Its quality comes from training it with images and how they should look.
The current version was trained in 2021 and overall the algorithm has been out since 2018, with some predecessors being used before that already.

Any algorithm can possible be further improved, with new and better training sets and a lot of time. But this is not something we're working on, we just supply access to it.

[armyplace]

So I just migrated to MC31 from MC30.

I have to say, the new DTM engine and sharpening features have really ironed out any issues I had previously with MC30.

It's definitely a more efficient build, pans are super smooth and image is cleaner, sharper and brighter (no need to set Target peak nits to an extremely low number)

I tried several UHD movies and series which were problematic but now all are working spectacularly.

Black Panther - First 10 minutes looks amazing, I can run this using Hable algo and the details in dark scenes are superb!
Mandalorian Ep 3 - First 20 mins, this always too dark for me and making adjustments would fix a particular scene but the whole balance was off, it's just right now!
See S2 E3 - First 10 mins, dark scenes mixed with the snow scene never really looked good for me, looks absolutely perfect now.
Everest - First 10 mins, adjusting for blacks in other movies/shows would always clip the whites here, MC31 fixes this so I can have my cake and eat it too.

One last issue which I've had is that I have this movie: Everything Everywhere All at Once (mkv) which plays fine with embedded PGS english subs, works fine in mpc-be but in MC30/31 it does not have any available subtitles. Any way for me to check why it's not showing?

thanks!

[jmone]

One last issue which I've had is that I have this movie: Everything Everywhere All at Once (mkv) which plays fine with embedded PGS english subs, works fine in mpc-be but in MC30/31 it does not any available subtitle at all. Any way for me to check why it's not showing?

Check the file in something like MKVToolNix and see if the sub is tagged as "enabled"

[armyplace]

Check the file in something like MKVToolNix and see if the sub is tagged as "enabled"

Yup this fixed it, just needed to enable the tracks in mkvtoolnix, thank you very much!

[JimH]

murray,
Thanks very much for your posts at AVSForum (as RapalloAV).
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/madvr-player-support-thread.2215490/page-427#post-62538059

and thanks, jmone, for all your help getting murray to the finish line.

[jmone]

Ahhh, it's all part of the fun.  We are now discussing the pros and cons of HDR-->SDR vs HDR-->HDR tonemapping.  I'll bet a beer that Murray will stick with HDR-->SDR as it look great (his words) and does not have issues from the PJ switching between SDR and HDR modes.  I get around this by leaving Windows in HDR mode all the time (on my Flat Screens - my JVC PC has a Magenta Bug to work around), and let Windows do the reverse SDR-->HDR tonemapping.  Now if JRVR could do that!  Maybe MC32 for that one.

[jmone]

Nope, just cleared HDR Format field and I still get HDR10+ after MC video analysis

I think I've found what is going on.  Do you have 1917 or WW1984 for example (both are HDR10+)?  For me these are listed as "DolbyVision Profile 7, HDR10-compatible" under HDR format.  From what I can see files tagged as "DolbyVision Profile 7, HDR10-compatible" could be HDR10 or HDR10+.  Files that are only HDR10 or HDR10+ are tagged correctly. 

[mattkhan]

1917 is tagged the same way for me

[murray]

Ahhh, it's all part of the fun.  We are now discussing the pros and cons of HDR-->SDR vs HDR-->HDR tonemapping.  I'll bet a beer that Murray will stick with HDR-->SDR as it look great (his words) and does not have issues from the PJ switching between SDR and HDR modes.  I get around this by leaving Windows in HDR mode all the time (on my Flat Screens - my JVC PC has a Magenta Bug to work around), and let Windows do the reverse SDR-->HDR tonemapping.  Now if JRVR could do that!  Maybe MC32 for that one.

Very true and after lots of testing tonight Ive decided to keep all in SDR as Hendrick has created an amazing HDR to SDR. To be honest I just dont see HDR to HDR running on my JVC NZ9 looking any better than HDR to SDR on MC31. I hate all the resyncing of the projector so I have decided to run all in SDR. If it looked even 50% better in HDR to HDR I might live with the resync times, but its absolutly all perfect for me staying SDR all the way...... Im very very happy!

[SamuriHL]

I think I've found what is going on.  Do you have 1917 or WW1984 for example (both are HDR10+)?  For me these are listed as "DolbyVision Profile 7, HDR10-compatible" under HDR format.  From what I can see files tagged as "DolbyVision Profile 7, HDR10-compatible" could be HDR10 or HDR10+.  Files that are only HDR10 or HDR10+ are tagged correctly.

Yes I brought this up before and asked about which is actually being used earlier in the thread. There are quite a few that have both HDR10+ and DV.

[tkolsto]

I have a question. If I understands this correct. Hdr to hdr tonemapping is activated with ticking off this feature hdr to hdr tonemapping in jrvr settings right? But this talk about hdr to sdr what is that about and how is this done or activated? is this making and sdr movie get played as a hdr thus able to use tone mapping on a sdr movie? or is it just plain hdr to sdr...is this just as simple as one does not tick of hdr mode in jrvr setting...so that hdr movies are just played like an sdr movie?

[Hendrik]

For HDR to SDR -> Disable "Use the display's HDR capability"

For simple HDR passthrough -> Enable "Use the display's HDR capability"
If you want to use HDR to HDR Tone Mapping -> Enable "Use the display's HDR capability" & Enable "Enable HDR to HDR Tone Mapping"

[jmone]

Any plans for IVTC?  I really hate NTSC bodges, but was looking at one of Murray's problematic movies (Oklahoma!) and the processing of this 60i BD Encode (remuxed to MKV) is tough to do without massive frame drops.  I may get him to post a link to a 10min sample if you are interested.  The other option is to post process the video stream.

The odd thing in this testing is deinterlacing seems very expensive (YADIF worst, then D3D) but the OSD stats seems weird at times.  I can get constant dropped frames when MAX render time is reported as around 10ms when using D3D, so I'm not sure the stats takes the HW Deinterlacing into account, and at other times the MAX render times can jump to over 30+ms and not drop frames. 

The next odd thing is when in 59.94hz mode, the reported VSync wanders all over the place, which I don't think helps.  I don't see this on 23.976 or 50hz. 

[Hendrik]

No plans for IVTC at this point.

[jmone]

No probs - more than one way to skin a cat.

[Hendrik]

I'm adding black bar and aspect ratio options to JRVR currently, and I wanted to get some feedback if this covers everything sensible for usual setups.

Basically this is what I'm thinking right now, on a per-output basis in JRVR.

- Enable Black Bar Cropping
- Crop to [Automatic] (using the metadata), and [a list of common aspect ratios] (similar to whats available today in the context menu)

- Aspect Ratio Mode: Preserve, Stretch, Crop. Existing options as a per-output default. (moved from Video -> Aspect Ratio mode into per-output settings)

- Aspect Ratio adjustment, eg. a factor to adjust the aspect ratio by. Might have some presets and an input for a scale factor. This would be used for anamorphic lenses (or older screens with non-square pixels).
(this option was previously available in Video -> Aspect Ratio correction, this is moving it and making it per-output when using JRVR)

Advanced:
- Vertical Image Shift, Shift image to the top or bottom, rather then centered.

These are essentially all existing settings, streamlined into per-output settings in JRVR, and of course making use of automatic black bar cropping based on the metadata we're gathering now.

[mattkhan]

It sounds good to me