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[mlknez]

I see that DSD bitstreaming has been added to MC31, but it is only implemented as DoP via WASAPI.  Is there any reason that it cannot be implemented as a native bitstream over WASAPI?  My pre/pro DAC only accepts native dsd over HDMI.  I am sure that it true for many others.  Native DSD bitstream over ASIO works just fine on my external DAC.

[Dr.Ames]

Most DACs I know come with their own installable ASIO driver for Windows 10/11, which can be used to configure native bitstreaming directly without any problems - see https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD.

[dtc]

WASAPI does not support the format needed for native DSD. That is why ASIO drivers are supplied by the manufacturers for native DSD support.

HDMI drivers on PCs do not support native DSD. The companies that develop HDMI for PCs are interested in video, not audio. So, audio devices often support native DSD over HDMI but PCs do not. To get native DSD from a PC you need to use usb.

By the way, DSD bitstreaming has been available for a long time on MC. It was one of the early adopters of DSD.

[mlknez]

WASAPI does not support the format needed for native DSD. That is why ASIO drivers are supplied by the manufacturers for native DSD support.

HDMI drivers on PCs do not support native DSD. The companies that develop HDMI for PCs are interested in video, not audio. So, audio devices often support native DSD over HDMI but PCs do not. To get native DSD from a PC you need to use usb.

By the way, DSD bitstreaming has been available for a long time on MC. It was one of the early adopters of DSD.

Thanks.  I meant to say DSD bitstreaming over HDMI.  I have been using it over usb via asio for awhile.   I guess i will continue to use my external DAC for all DSD then.

[dtc]

I believe that the new bitstreaming option in .10 only applies to audio from video formats, like mka files.  Those are audio only (e.g. Dolby Atmos) with no video, so the new feature is to allow those audio only files to go through the video system and therefore be allowed to bitstream. I do not think it applies to DSD files.

It would be nice for the graphics hardware developers to support DSD over HDMI, but they understandably have no interest in customizing for audio only files.

[jctcom]

It would be nice for the graphics hardware developers to support DSD over HDMI, but they understandably have no interest in customizing for audio only files.

I don't see why this is so "Understandable".  There are plenty of people that either use (Or would like to use) HDMI for high def audio.  People have been searching for drivers for HDMI cards for years to do just that.  I even at one time purchased a dedicated HDMI based Audio card (a flavour of Asus Zonar I believe), only to find it had the same limitations as the video cards.

I think there would be a big market for an audio based HDMI card. Otherwise DACS would not be so popular these days.

I don't think it is that "Video" card manufacturers are not interested, or the "Market is not there".  I think rather it is a decision by the developers of DSD (Mostly Sony I believe) have purposely restricted it's use in PCs through license requirement.

It is not the first time Sony has stifled the growth of new technology.  usually to it's (Sony's) detriment (Beta and Mini-Disc come to mind).

This might not be the place to gripe about such things.  But since the topic came up lol.  Hopefully someone (Important?) from the Video Card manufacturer's and / or Sony might have occasion to read these comments lol.

Carl.

[Awesome Donkey]

Like mentioned, you can't bitstream DSD over HDMI via any sort of computer (PCs, Macs, Raspberry Pis, NUCs, etc.). This is because none of the graphics card drivers out there be it Nvidia, AMD, Intel, etc. support DSD at all. DSD over HDMI only works with receivers that support it when connecting a SACD/CD player to the receiver via HDMI, or something of that sort.

[jctcom]

Like mentioned, you can't bitstream DSD over HDMI via any sort of computer (PCs, Macs, Raspberry Pis, NUCs, etc.). None of the graphics card drivers out there be it Nvidia, AMD, Intel, etc. support DSD at all. DSD over HDMI only works with receivers that support it when connecting a SACD/CD player to the receiver via HDMI, or something of that sort.

I and most other people interested I believe understand that.  But is it not because it is impossible to do.  it is because the Video Card manufacturer's and or the DSD Licensing terms (From Sony or whoever) have chosen not to provide the ability. 

This sucks as far as I am concerned.  If they would implement the ability then we would not need 3rd party hardware (DACs) to provide those abilities.

Most modern receivers have the ability to play DSD via HDMI (Many I am discovering have the ability over DLNA though most are relegated to stereo only).  If the Video Card developers and DSD licensing organization were so inclined we could easily have the ability.

Carl

[dtc]

I don't see why this is so "Understandable".  There are plenty of people that either use (Or would like to use) HDMI for high def audio. 

Clearly the graphics card producers don't think there is a big enough market. DSD is already a niche and HDMI is a portion of that already small market.  DSD was "hot" a few years ago and none of the graphics care companies supported it over HDMI. Not much chance they will do it these days.  Agreed, it would be a nice addition. I just don't think the numbers are there for the video companies to do an audio only enhancement for this niche market.

[Awesome Donkey]

I and most other people interested I believe understand that.  But is it not because it is impossible to do.  it is because the Video Card manufacturer's and or the DSD Licensing terms (From Sony or whoever) have chosen not to provide the ability. 

This sucks as far as I am concerned.  If they would implement the ability then we would not need 3rd party hardware (DACs) to provide those abilities.

Most modern receivers have the ability to play DSD via HDMI (Many I am discovering have the ability over DLNA though most are relegated to stereo only).  If the Video Card developers and DSD licensing organization were so inclined we could easily have the ability.

I do think the graphics card manufacturers have zero interest though, I mean, why would they? DSD is so niche it'd make no sense if they added support for it or to even consider it to begin with.

Hell probably has a better chance at freezing over.

[jctcom]

I do think the graphics card manufacturers have zero interest though, I mean, why would they? DSD is so niche it'd make no sense if they added support for it or to even consider it to begin with.

Hell probably has a better chance at freezing over.

DSD is actually on the rise again as far as I can tell.  not only are new SACDs still being released but there is a fairly large number of Vinyl transfers and even DSD direct releases that are more common now.

If the market weren't there then DACs would be much less popular than they are now.  If the Video card manufacturers implemented DSD in their cards (And or higher than 24Bit / 192kHz) they would take pretty good chunk of the DAC market share.

Carl

[Awesome Donkey]

I simply don't think they'll ever do it. Besides, it's moot when there's already established, and better IMO, ways to playback DSD (both native DSD and DoP, which accomplish the exact same thing in the end).

To the OP, DSD bitstreaming (both native DSD and DoP) in MC has been there for years now, and has worked well. There's also DSD-over-DLNA too, so there's plenty of ways to bitstream DSD. It's not possible to bitstream DSD over HDMI from any computer unfortunately.

[jctcom]

I simply don't think they'll ever do it. Besides, it's moot when there's already established, and better IMO, ways to playback DSD (both native DSD and DoP, which accomplish the exact same thing in the end).

To the OP, DSD bitstreaming (both native DSD and DoP) in MC has been there for years now, and has worked well. There's also DSD-over-DLNA too, so there's plenty of ways to bitstream DSD. It's not possible to bitstream DSD over HDMI from any computer unfortunately.

Sure with the purchase of extra equipment (DACs etc..) but how many people would not want or need to purchase that extra equipment if it were implemented into their already existing HDMI video card(s).  In fact how many people would rather purchase an HDMI based audio card if it were fully functional for high bitrate files and DSD.

Let's face it a large part of the JRiver users are Audiophiles which are themselves a "Niche" market.  If it were available I believe many of them including myself would rather have an HDMI based high end Audio card or Video card capable of Audiophile quality music transfers rather than have to purchase a dedicated DAC.

Carl.

[dtc]

Let's turn this around. All the audio companies need to do is to have a usb input on their receivers that accepts input from a computer. They already have the A to D logic and support DSD, so all they need is the usb connection. Most limit their usb function to input from disks.  It seems like the receiver companies are doing a lot of enhancement for video but their audio development is pretty stagnate beyond incorporating the latest DAC chips that other companies are developing. If anything is going to impact the DAC sales it seems like it would be the receiver companies not the graphics card companies.

Note : The Yamaha R-N2000A Receiver does incorporate a usb for PC connectivity but it pretty expensive.

[jctcom]

But most receivers already have the ability to accept DSD from their already existing HDMI ports. It seems to me that accepting a completely different protocol via their USB ports (Of which not all receivers even have) would be a bigger job than just writing a driver for the already existing video cards that are out there.  This is all that would be needed.  An ASIO driver with the proper protocols to send bitstreamed DSD via HDMI.

I believe this is more of a licensing issue.  Sony does not want to implement DSD in a PC because they know that people would use it to create non licensed DSD versions of music such as they did with early versions of the PS3.  Such that Sony created firmware to fully block that ability for the PS3 and all subsequent players that were capable of playing DSD.

If it were not for this we would have DSD capable Video / Audio cards for the PC.

Carl

[dtc]

You can wish all you want, but the video companies have shown no interest in providing DSD support over HDMI.  Many would like it, but it is very unlikely to happen.

And I still do not understand why the receiver companies have not accepted usb as an input other than from disks.

[jctcom]

You can wish all you want, but the video companies have shown no interest in providing DSD support over HDMI.  Many would like it, but it is very unlikely to happen.

And I still do not understand why the receiver companies have not accepted usb as an input other than from disks.

Again.  I don't believe this has anything to do with "Interest" from the Video card companies.  it is a restriction on licensing from Sony and others involved in that end of things.

But you are right as far as the receiver's not accepting it via USB.  But that also could be a licensing thing and likely is.

Carl

[mlknez]

You can wish all you want, but the video companies have shown no interest in providing DSD support over HDMI.  Many would like it, but it is very unlikely to happen.

And I still do not understand why the receiver companies have not accepted usb as an input other than from disks.

Some do via a USB-B connector, but only for stereo, not multichannel.  (Emotiva is an example)