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[nila]

Hey

As I'm sure your all aware from some of my posts, I've been trying out WMP9 and just recently tried RealOne Player.

I love seeing how these compare, what features they have, if they're better or easier to use etc.

The thing I LOVE is that no matter what, I usually do end up coming back to MJ at the end of the day. They're catching up though I have to say in terms of ease of use etc and their GUI, graphics etc are AMAZING in terms of visual eye candy.
I gotta say though, your the ONLY software company that I actually would try to help beat competitors if I thought they had something better or were better. With anything else I'd just change to the other program.


One thing I noticed, especially with RealOne Player and to a lesser extent with WMP is the icons.

• Artists, Genre, Album etc all use different icons when browsing to help differentiate
  
• The icons are all colourful and very well designed and have a LOT of eye candy appeal which is after all what makes people buy flashy looking porsche's over well made, reliable volvo's so is obviously super important.
  MJ's ones all look a bit old and outdated and in 'My Computer' all aren't even clear as they have black outlines around the icons.
  
  This would make a lot of difference to how MJ looked to use by simply changing the icons.
  
  RealOne Player really has some graphic work done on it.
  
  
  Another BIG area these two both visually just take it from MJ is full screen mode.
  
  If EITHER of these players are made full screen, the Play controls are extremely clear, great colour scheme's with buttons of varying size to emphasize importance (big play buttons etc). Real One also has a nice little set of controls at the top that allow one click access over video size (100%, 200%, fullscreen).
  In MJ for instance the volume line is right next to the video line and this just makes it look like a long line to control the video.
  
  
  Another area is the actual icons for Windows Explorer. They are all currently the jukebox icon which is very confusing. There have been several requests in the past for seperate icons and if I recall you seemed into the idea (Matt and Jim).
  
  
  I was just thinking, from personal experience I've found that programmers are not the best graphics people, I know my programming skills are pretty good and I have a natural flair for it, when it comes to graphics though I have to work hard and although the results are 'ok' they're really nothing special.
  Technically minded people just aren't usually too creative.
  
  
  I dont know if you have any graphic artists on the team but if you dont, I was thinking it might be worth just hiring a Graphic Designer for a short period to just come in and make you a ton of icons to use so that you have original, extremely well designed colourful icons just so that the eye candy and visual aspect is as great as the program itself.
  Perhaps they could also make the eye candy of the full screen mode a little stronger and more appealing.
  The right click menu too could be visually greatly enhanced with some visuals.
  
  I know this might not seem that important, but visually it would just make MJ look totally revamped and brought to a new level of life. No matter how much programming you do, its all under the surface, the only parts we see are whats on the surface.
  
  
  
  Just me waffling as usual

[Marty3d]

Couldn't say it better myself!

I also agree on that we old timers get somewhat blind after a while and stop caring about fancy graphics, but I draw parallells to my own work as a web developer for a company in the company car fleet market. We rarely use images to lighten up our web pages and after seeing pages after pages with just text and numbers, you just get sick of it... So eye candy can be more important than you think!

Another thought: Why did windows get more popular than DOS? Could one of the reasons be a prettier interface?

Well, as usual, you're still doing a super job JRiver!!!

/Martin

[JimH]

Nila -- one word -- "skins".

[nila]

Hey Jim

I'm aware of skins and have a large good collection of some really pretty ones

I'm actually planning to make one to steal the visuals of RealOne as I LOVE the way they've made it look.
Real actually did an amazing job as I now really like the player purely from the way it looks and useability and this is from someone who has hated Real for years.


As far as I'm aware though the skins dont cover the icons within MJ itself in the view schemes and they dont work when MJ is in full screen mode (I mean when you double click a video to watch it full screen).

This GUI is quite basic and definitely not pretty.
If it's possible to skin this mode I'd be delited but as far as I know it's not.
Icons in the right click menu's would also really help to just stop it appearing as it appears now as a big list of text but would help to bring each function to life with an easily recognisable icon.

Also icons for explorer would be hugely welcomed as well as the ability for it to say things other than: Mediajukebox File.



One other thing visually, Both WMP and Real both offer constant access to: Playlists, Media Library, Playing Now, Devices, Radio, Web etc at all times.

MJ has all these features but they are all in the tree which makes them disappear when browsing. The useability advantage of having them visable at all times is amazing as it's very strongly a case of: Out of sight, out of mind a lot of the time.
Having these large links to these areas as strong clear buttons makes jumping betweem them something I do often in both of those apps but rarely in MJ.


They also offer vifferent views depending on which area you are looking at with the views really designed specifically for what you are dealing with.

This is an area MJ is seriously lagging behind in.

Right now MJ wins in terms of organisation and ability to add new fields, view schemes etc but looses by quite a lot in terms of simplicity and ease of use.
Both of these programs are catching up to MJ FAST and I'd hate to ever see it ever go under.
Their GUI's, wizards for building smartlists (now added to RealOne and took me 1 click and 1 minute to learn how to use and build smartlists along with their point in Real whereas they took me ages to become familiar with in MJ), and overall user interface is where they really are pulling ahead.

Take a look at the tool to add 'Auto Smartlists' to RealOne.
It's totally wizard driven which means building them requires no knowledge of the program, no looking up features in the help file, adding limiters to the smartlist in terms of length, etc is all suggested to you to incorporate into the search rather than with MJ where you have to be aware of it's existance before hand.


v9 REALLY needs to have GUI interfaces built for the following areas to pull the features to the surface and shove them in users faces:

• Rename from properties
  
• Get properties from Filename
  
• Smart Lists
  
  
  Anyway, I hope I'm not seeming pushey, I'm just saying the areas that I feel MJ really lacks in compared to these other programs as I really dont want them to win.
  I love the support and interactive feel of how you guys work and you all seem extremely friendly and like nice people instead of greedy money hungry corporations.
  
  
  I'm not sure if you guys ever test out the other programs much to compare them but if you dont you might want to just one day play with them a bit and see what parts of them you really love.
  
  I always test new software to see which one I really love and usually swap every time I find a program I like better.
  
  MJ is the only one I stick to out of loyalty to the company. The other companies can do whatever they want I'm not too fussed.

[sraymond]

Nila,

You've reminded me of the adage that the "best" isn't always the "most popular".  In the software world, there are a lot of esoteric considerations that often drive popularity...

I agree wholeheartedly that the suggestions you've made would be a great addition to MC...  especially the file association icon.  It seems like such an easy area for improvement, I'd hope JRiver does this soon!

As an aside...  I went looking for a WindowsXP mega-me skin - but couldn't find one.  I'd like to have the window frames and minimize/maximize/close buttons the standard XP style.  Does anyone have the requisite graphics I could plug into an existing skin (like Watercolor Blue, which is almost there)?

Scott-

[Polonio]

I fully agree with Nila's considerations.

MJ9 really needs a completelly new  design.

And one more thing: No.,I am not going to make any specific suggestion. I am not a designer.

[JimH]

Guys,
It isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there are a lot of them.

Jim

[michel]

For me the GUI is nice the way it is now. It is clean.

[nila]

Jim,

I know a full GUI overhall is a big thing and I'm not asking for anything that drastic.

Here are a few specific small changes that could be made that would really totally improve useability:

• Skinning for full screen video playback mode (this is currently very basic looking and ugly (no offence!!)
  
• Customise each view slightly so that depending on what is being done, a seperate set of tools appear (ie if I was on CD Drive, there would be a set of tools giving options to:  Rip CD (this would then bring up a prompt box asking me what format I wanted to rip to with a checkbox saying: do not ask me again Internet Explorer style).  Copy CD, Lookup CD Track Info). If I was in the playlists there would be buttons to: Create New Playlist, Create New Smart List. Little things like that to make each view more definite and to have MJ act in an organic manner adjusting to what it's doing.
  
• Seperate explorer icons for file types.
  
• Ability to Save/Delete naming formats in both: Get properties from filename and rename from properties as well as a graphical way of entering the info instead of having to type it which is too prone to errors and confusion.

[matthewmattical]

I understand that a GUI overhaul isn't going to happen - I use MC unskinned anyway so it just uses the nice visual style that I have WinXP set up with. However, I do think that different icons for the different file types are quite important, both inside MC and outside of it when viewing files in Windows explorer. Having a music note icon for audio, video and images is a bit confusing.

As it stands, you skin artists out there can at least make new tree view icons by editing the "media jukebox\data\default art\smallicons.bmp" file. That's a start on changing the look of MC. And anyone running XP, just get a neat 3rd party visual style and run MC in skinless mode.

[Autoelph]

So, when did "prettiest" become "smartest"? Let's take a whole and divide it into it's parts. If WMP9, RealOne and MC all spent about the same amount of time in develpoment (a reasonable concept), then who spent it most wisely? Sure, RealOne is J-Lo, pretty but she can't act to save her life*. WMP9 owns the studio, but that hasn't made Arnold any better of an action star. He makes money, big sweeping flicks with lots of explosions and machismo attitude, but is there anything beyond the fluff*? MC is Jack Nicholson, an excellent performer in everything he does, but he ain't winning no beauty contest*. And maybe one day, when a "new" Jack hits the scene (MC10, anyone?) then a little style can be added to the substance.

(* the opinions offered are the sole property of Autoelph and in no way reflect the opinions of others, including those at JRiver and anyone else who may read this. Autoelph respects those who have their own opinions of the above mentioned subjects. He was just trying to make a point.)

[JimH]

So, when did "prettiest" become "smartest"? Let's take a whole and divide it into it's parts. If WMP9, RealOne and MC all spent about the same amount of time in develpoment (a reasonable concept), then who spent it most wisely? Sure, RealOne is J-Lo, pretty but she can't act to save her life*. WMP9 owns the studio, but that hasn't made Arnold any better of an action star. He makes money, big sweeping flicks with lots of explosions and machismo attitude, but is there anything beyond the fluff*? MC is Jack Nicholson, an excellent performer in everything he does, but he ain't winning no beauty contest*. And maybe one day, when a "new" Jack hits the scene (MC10, anyone?) then a little style can be added to the substance.

Do you mind if we use this quote in our marketing?  It's perfect.  

[Autoelph]

I'd be honored. Go for it!

[JimH]

Thanks very much.

[nila]

Auto - To use your own example of singers.

Heres the perfect example:

Britney Spears - one of the biggest names out there, with the most coverage, tons of money and the rest of it.

Christina Aguilera has a way way better voice and they both came out around the same time. Britney sells though because of her image and the fact she's HOT.
She does a few things right (she's had a couple of good singles) and yet is way more famous than Aguilera who does it right way better and way more often but just isn't as appealing visually.


How's that for an example?

[Autoelph]

You know Nila, we could do this from now to eternity...and some people will agree and others won't, but it is fun, isn't it? Secondly, I usually stay away from hammering singers or musicians as I am in the recording industry and they and their labels pay my mortgage .

But since I am anon here, what the hell:

Britney IS hot, neck down. Christina, real nice voice, could be hot, but who is advising her on style? So, they are Real and WMP respectively, and MC is...Macy Gray, underated, unhot but very classy and unique voice.

And now I have a feeling that when Jim sees this he's gonna close this thread for being waaaaay OT

[nila]

Nah, Jim doesn't mind OT as long as it doesn't get abusive or stir trouble and this just harmless chat.


Macy Gray - Amazing tallent.
Imagine giving her Britney's body?

You'd have both the stunning body and the voice - NO ONE could beat that.

Even if someone was slightly hotter they'd lack the voice, if they were slightly better at singing they'd lack the body.

If you get both then you make sure you win no matter what.

[Autoelph]

Let's just go ahead and build the perfect musical being. Guitar heroism of Jimi Hendrix, songwriting skills of Ray Charles, innovative vision of Miles Davis, self promotion of Madonna, bod of Britney, voice of Sarah Vaughn. A veritable music machine, will destroy any other artist in it's path!

And then watch as some A&R guy tries to turn our hero into the next Justin Timberlake!

[nila]

Ah - see, now your seeing my point.

MJ already has the tallent, the skill, the voice, the power, the initiate and the team.

All it needs now is the body to make it truely beautiful.

[Autoelph]

O, I see the point, MC could be prettier and totally slam the competition. But, as I am saying, a dream of a superstar singer doesn't exist. In the grand scheme, nothing has nor should have ALL the power. Competition is what makes capitolism work. Why do the guys at JRiver care so much? Because their livelyhood depends on it.

From my point of view (ever heard the phrase "opinions are like ***holes, everybodys got one"?) MC is where it should be. Most of the time MC is a disembodied spirit in my house since it shares a monitor with my office cpu. It is 85% of the time just playing music. No visualizations, no lyrics, whatever...When I am in front of MC I want it to be fully utilitarian, looks just don't matter. I don't even use skinning, it's a waste of resources. I want to tag, organize, and playlist, that's it. And this is where it DOES blow away the competition. Ease and power of use over style. Plus it has yet to balk at my rather large db, which the others did with surprising regularity. Of course I need to invest in some more RAM, as MC has a serious memory appetite. But like I said, nothing is perfect, except in fantasy.

[Autoelph]

One more thing. I do agree that the right click menus could be more like AV2. As a matter of fact, I would love to see the functions of AV2 integrated into the media library rather than a plug. I realize this would (I suppose) cut out Rhino, who has obviously worked very hard on AV2. Maybe there could be an arrangement between the two, dunno, but AV2 has style that doesn't detract from the substance, the riight click icons are very helpful and the way the icons in the layout display info without cutting off vital info is awesome. In MC album view mode, I see "(Multipe Artist) - ..." or "Echo & The Bunnyme...", and this is not helpful or useful or fun to look at. Actually I would love to see improvement on this in MC9 rather than 10, but they understandably have their own priorities.

[nila]

Aahh,

It's starting to sound like deep down you are a believer.

The artwork in the menu's is a really speed increase as a simple glance tell's you what each tool is instead of having to read each one which can be slow and boring.

Why do I want to have to read each time something that I could recognise at a single quick glance each time?

Right click menu items are a BIG enhancement visually.

Each media type in MJ now has seperate icons which is a BIG PLUS - especially if these can be skinned as the ones there now are mugly


And I disagree with you. A player CAN and SHOULD have it all (as long as it's MJ). Competition is what makes capitalism work your right - but being miles ahead of the competition so much so as to run it out of the water isn't ruining that - it is the perfect ideal example of how well it can work as everyone would be using MJ not because they were forced to but because they have choice and their choice tells them that the ONLY player to use is MJ for both useability and for visual appeal.

MS Tries to force WMP on everyone, MJ's success due to it's amazingness is the tribute to true capitalism.


I agree with you about AV's useability. What I think MJ should look at doing is just paying Rhino to directly incorporate AV into MJ or else just considering it such a useful plug-in that they speak to Rhino and bundle it with MJ and integrate it more closely with it so that it can be accessed more directly and a search could for instance return items with the AV interface which is sooo customiseable.

[nila]

And nothing is perfect - but that's the aim - to get as close as possible to it