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[ph_bradley]

Two months ago, I was a happy (fairly happy, anyway; the frequent crashes left me angry ) beta-tester for MJ9 (or MC9 as it is now called). However after 30 days of following with joy and anxiety the new builds, installing them and reporting the bugs with almost religious fervor, it told me i could no longer run MC9. For over a month now i have been installing every new build that comes out on the very day they are released, but when I try to run the program, it tells me my 30 day trial period has expired, and i can go no further without buying it!

Of course, you may not see things as I do. You probably expect me to shell out money for a program which I have never tried (effectively, MJ9, before its Unicode conversion and hairstyle and the many, many improvements you make with every new build, was a different program, more similar to MJ8 than MC9 today), even though that program is still somewhat buggy and certainly a beta .

I however don't see things that way. I'm appealing to you therefore to give all the past beta-testers who weren't quite convinced by the MJ9 of bygone days, to wipe out the scars left by MJ9 in our registry (even after we politely asked the uninstaller to remove its registry entries - you may remember my posts about the questionable legality of those) and let us give MC9 a new chance to win over our hearts - and let us continue to beta test. It is quite strange in the first place that you sell a beta - but that's irrelevant. To not let potential buyers sample your product and tell you if it works or not, even though you advertise a beta and a trial, is not right ?.

[KingSparta]

>> tells me my 30 day trial period has expired,
>> and i can go no further without buying it!
Buy it, Problem solved

>> even though you advertise a beta
>> and a trial, is not right
The splash screen does not say beta now

Some other Jukeboxes only allow owners of the jukebox to beta test, I guess with MC you got more.

The program is stable now you should really think about buying it, it's your choice.

[MachineHead]

The splash screen does not say beta now

But the thread where you get the latest builds does...

[ph_bradley]

MEDIA CENTER Version 9.0 is now in beta .  You can read more
about it or download it here.

(from the download page)

But the point is, what is the logic behind not letting me sample a version of MC9 which is about 50-70 builds more advanced than the last one I sampled? If you are worried that I might abuse the sample period and simply reinstall the same thing over and over again to avoid having to pay for it, just shorten the sample period of each new build to 7 days, but let me install the new builds!!

And if you really want to compare the way J River behaves in its marketing tactics compared to other jukebox companies, I much prefer the other companies! they don't leave hidden registry cookies after uninstall, especially without mentioning them in the EULA.

[cct1]

Personally I think if you've had a month of a free trial, you should be able to make a decision on wether you want the program or not.  Granted, it's not finished, so it leaves you with two  (both reasonable) choices:  buy it now, at the  reduced price, and continue to beta test, with the assumption that eventually it is going to be completed and work well, realizing that they're not going to remove any of the existing features, but they might add some, OR, wait until the final version is out and buy it then.  Why exactly do you need another week of a free trial?

[ph_bradley]

To see if it works!! if it is buggy on my machine (i work on a very old laptop, basically running the minimum requirements possible). I live in the UK, i'm a minor with no credit card, etc, if i want to buy this i would have to get my parents to buy it for me. Therefore not only is it a big hassle for them, but if i want to return it (is that possible? i'm not even sure) because its rubbish on my machine, it would be near impossible.

You are perfectly right, I could just go the whole hog and buy this - it is more likely i would be satisfied with what i had just bought than not. But is buying a beta version of a program i havent yet tested (see above for my logic on this; i dont know if you tried the early versions of MJ9 but i certainly did, and wasnt impressed) a wise thing to do? My personal opinion on this is that it isn't, though i completely understand that other people are fully willing to dish out that sum of money blindly for a program they aren't sure will work or is worth the money, is still a beta and leaves data on your computer even though you don't know its there or want it to be there.

Is there any reason why I shouldn't be allowed to try out all the new features that have been added (eg the export to xml, hairstyle, even the new unicode etc - the list goes on and on)??

[KingSparta]

>> But the thread where you get
>> the latest builds does...
Yea just somthing i noticed on the splash screen some time ago

[Autoelph]

I think if you saw where it was going a few months back, continued to test it and report bugs, then you must have seen something you liked, or you probably wouldn't have invested the time, right? So, it's only gotten better, new things are being added in nearly every build, and testing and reporting has continued to result in improved builds each time out. This all means it's headed for a positive release because these guys know what they're doing. It's certainly worth the money, but ultimately that's for you to decide. I do imagine that most of the people posting in the beta threads are current paying customers, happy to assist in making this the best possible release.

[KingSparta]

'Free Ride' Charted At 14 In 1973

Listening to: 'Free Ride' from 'The Best Of Edgar Winter Group' by 'Edgar Winter Group' on Media Center 9.0

[ph_bradley]

hehe King is that a subtle way of pointing out you think im just fishing for a freebie?

if u think that u misunderstand me - what i'm suggesting is a change in the way J River lets people sample MC.

At the moment J river lets people sample 'the product' for 30 days (far too much if you ask me - if you need 30 days to fully try out all the functionality MC offers you , you dont use a media jukebox enough to warrant buying one i reckon) and then freezing them off from trying out all the improvements in reliability/functionality j river then tacks on to MC, even after 50/70 builds.

what i'm suggesting is to reduce the trial period to 7-10 days max. However, with each new build this (adequate but short) trial period is renewed.

This way, J River does not lose money because people dont get to use this freebie (if thats the way they see the trial as) for more than 7 days, but the ones who really are interested in doing the testing or buying the program get to see and test the changes as they happen.

[KingSparta]

where you and me might use our computer 18 hours a day some users do not.

I have known some to turn it on once every month maybe to type a letter.

I think 30 days is fine the way it is for MC9.

I hope MJ9 does allow a basic version with limited options.

Not always true but:

'The Best Things In Life Are Free' Charted At 10 In 1992

Listening to: 'The Best Things In Life Are Free' from 'The Best Of Luther Vandross And Janet Jackson' by 'Luther Vandross And Janet Jackson' on Media Center 9.0

[ph_bradley]

If those people only use their computers every so often, are they really the sort of people who need a media jukebox to play their music? after all, to need MC9 you have to meet certain requirements:

- you have a large physical music collection
- you use your computer enough to have had the time to rip at least a large part of that collection
- you are computer literate enough to know how to rip music

although maybe (i doubt it, but who knows?) people only use MC's cd-playing capabilities. Even so, i don't think the majority of mc9 users are the sort of people who dont spend enough time a week on their computers to be able to test out the majority of MC9's features

>> basic (limited) version of MC9
isn't that the point of MJ8 once MC9 is released for good?

what are the problems with the trial scheme i am suggesting? it would make potential users who tried out mj9 ages ago and have only just come back to it hoping it would be released by now a lot happier, and wouldnt have any negative impact of j river's income - i think more people would buy it once the beta builds stop coming out every 3 days, which is less than 30 days away anyway. if j river changes the trial period to the way i suggest, people like me will be able to test all the beta versions that come out from now until the release date (which they say is in less than 30 days); once the release date comes, people will no longer be able to abuse the trial for 30 days, only 7-10 days, after which they will have to use it.

In my opinion, the longer you have to get used to a free program, the more you miss it being free once that trial has run out, and the more reluctant you are to buy it. But I am aware that that argument can go both ways.

By the way, does anyone ever notice the ad banner at the top of the page? if not, is j river so poor as to really need it there? just a minor detail

[KingSparta]

>> By the way, does anyone ever notice the
>> Ad banner at the top of the page?
If you own a store that sells tires and you wanted to make sure you had many to pay your workers each day when someone does not buy your tires. You need something to fill in and some will also do Oil changes.

In this case since you have not pulled the big green wad out of your back left pocket they sell banner ads.

Besides that is none of our business

Why is it that the left back pocket has a button and the right does not? I think I am being discriminated against.


'Money Talks' Charted At 23 In 1991

Listening to: 'Money Talks' from 'The Best Of Acdc' by 'Acdc' on Media Center 9.0

[JimH]

Why is it that the left back pocket has a button and the right does not? I think I am being discriminated against.

I'm afraid that more left handed people may be paranoid.

[Harry_The_Hipster]

I guess you've made your point - 4 or 5 times. Bottom line: you chose to play at a time when you knew or should have known the rules of the game, and now you're lobbying for something different.

The choice has always been clear. Opt in for MJ8x, which is stable - 30 days is more than enough time to figure out if it is for you - and watch the threads to see how 9x is developing, or jump in with the rest of us on 9x beta testing. There are times the process has been frustrating for every participant, and they've wondered if they're moving forward or back, but you won't hear much whining from them. They made their choices knowing how the system works.

BTW, it would be best to refrain from the irrelevant remarks about banner advertising and registry entries. If they're so off-putting, why are you so eager to slip into MC 9 through the side door? In any case, it obscures yout argument.

HTH

[cct1]

jh, I don't think 7-10 days is enough time to trial it, especially for mp3 newbies  (like I was when I trialed it.)  

I think I purchased MJ sometime in November, after trialing it, and decided to go with it--wanted it mainly for my ipod, but then MC9 roled out, and I'm kind hooked on it.  The thing about it is, here I've owned it for quite some time, and I still quite frequently find something new the program does that illicits a "wow, I didn't know I could do that" response.  Part of that I'm sure is due to my relative lack of computer saavy, but MC9 has a ton of different things you can do with it--it's a fairly complex program, the help files are nice but the bottom line is it takes alot of playing around with it to see all it's capabilities.  I've had it for something like three months, and I'm still learning new ways to use it.

From your posts, you look to be the type of user that would get alot out of the program--probably more than me or many of the other users.  I understand your arguments, and sympathize to a degree, but IMHO a 30 trial is adequate to decide wether you want the software or not.

I dunno, I suppose one potential compromise would be to allow a one time 30 day free trial after MC9 is out of beta, in it's completed version, to everyone, wether they've tested it before or not, but that's JRiver's decision, not mine--as HTH said, the rules were well-posted before you downloaded.....I don't think it's realistic to allow for a 7 day free trial for each build however--that I think would lead to a mess for everyone.

[Autoelph]

I think you made my point, you seem to want this product quite a bit, you're willing to put in some energy for " just another 7 days" I guess. I charge $75 an hour for my time, which means if I were you, I'd have spent twice what I earn to get something free, for a whole 7 days...I guess the way they do it works, and I don't begrudge any one their own ideas, but in the end, if it ain't broke, and they ain't breaking...and yes it's true, you get what you pay for...

[KingSparta]

>> By the way, what *does* the ant say to the
>> termite? it would seem that what u put down
>> gets cut off.
>> Or i am missing the point...
Yes

The current "Profiled" Picture is the profile of a Termite, there was no joke.

I also happen to do pest control for Orkin Pest contol (Bug Man Or Orkin Man).

==================================

I think and i hope when MJ9 comes out it has a basic free level that you can try out. and it all should be the same (all but the added video) that will be in MC9

==================================

'You Can't Get What You Want' Charted At 15 In 1984

Listening to: 'You Can't Get What You Want' from 'Body And Soul' by 'Joe Jackson' on Media Center 9.0

This is all playing on MC 9.0.109 somthing you don't have  

[ph_bradley]

HTH: i guess you're right: i should have figured out from the fact that there even WAS a trial period on a beta program that the 30 day limit didn't only applied to that build. But (my memory is fuzzy on this, forgive me if im wrong at this point) the rules of the game changed several times after the first few releases of MJ9, when everyone was getting the 'trial period expired' messages after a week or something, which is when the 30 day limit came in. or something.
With the benefit of hindsight, i should have waited until January to join in the beta-testing.

cct-1: the point you make is fair. The scheme i am suggesting would only apply to the beta testing - but as there are only 2-3 builds left to come, perhaps less, until the final release, so i guess a change now would be useless. I also completely agree with what you then suggest (the unconditional 30 day trial).

I just want to point out that i understand the point of view of everyone who has already bought MC9, who are therefore against giving people like me who have already tried out MJ9 (MC) in the past and now want to see what its like after several months of dedicated response from the j river team to bug reports and wishlists. It is undertandable you would only want the minimum trial period economics dictate is feasible - i make my points from the view of common sense not profitability and therefore maximum success of j river and of the products you have already 'pulled out the big green wad' for.

[MachineHead]

but as there are only 2-3 builds left to come, perhaps less, until the final release

Snickering as I read this.    If there aren't at least another 20 builds it would surprise me.

[KingSparta]

>>>> but as there are only 2-3 builds left
>>>> to come, perhaps less, until the final release

>> Snickering as I read this.
me too

Visa Or Mastercard?

[Kurt Young]

I somewhat agree with master Bradley.  I've seen public betas and private betas, betas by invite and permanent betas.  This is the first "paid beta" that I've ever had.  We have paid JRiver to beta test MC.  It's a bit odd.

Jim, you know what kind of guy I am, so please don't take this post as a flame or immature dissent.  I've registered and was very happy to do so (course, back then it was MJ8 and a whole different ball of wax.  Very happy that I got in on the "ground floor" of MC9).  I'm just trying to be a good customer and give some honest feedback.

Perhaps, while MC9 is in beta, you could program each build to expire 10 days after posting it, unless it is registered/activated/purchased.  This way, people can either:

1.  Register and use "build x" forever or keep downloading new builds as they're released.  When MC9 goes gold, they'll still have a registered and activated copy.

2.  Download each beta build and use it for 10 days for free, until MC9 goes gold.  10 days after posting, "build x" will not launch ("This version has expired") and they'll be required to download the latest build to keep rolling.  Yes, this would force them to keep installing every single new build, as they're released, but beta testers won't mind this at all --  they're doing this already; freeloaders will absolutely hate it, .  When MC9 goes gold, they'll have to buy it or not use MC at all, since the final beta would have expired 10 days after posting.

If you say "Dang, Kurt's right!  Let's do that!" (hehe!  ) then I would also say to take the 30-day trial period completely out of the beta.  Put it back in when MC has gone gold, because it's a great thing.  But while in beta, I would forgo the 30-day trial with the 10-day beta expiration.

At the end of the day, I think that it's a good solution that would come close to making all parties happy.

[KingSparta]

Perhaps, while MC9 is in beta, you could program each build to expire 10 days after posting it, unless it is registered/activated/purchased.

they did at first, but i think there must have been 100 complains with it expiring

I do think MC should let you look around but not do much. maybe put it in help mode and when you hover over and optionyou get a "?" and if you click on it you get info about that function.

[JimH]

I hope you will appreciate that we have to make a decision and go, and that any decision we make will be imperfect.

The only decision that everyone might be happy with would be free, and that's not going to happen.

In other words, we made a decision.  We're spending our time on fixing bugs now, not changing the licensing.

If you don't think that's reasonable, then we'll try to understand.

I'm closing this thread now.