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[Bob Sorel]

I have good news/bad news:

"2. NEW: Added an option to control subtitle position globally (as a percentage shift from the default position)."

This does not seem to be working, and which way are the subs supposed to shift...up and down or right and left? I see no movement at all in about 5 titles that I tested.

"3. NEW: Added an option to limit subtitles to the active video rect, instead of using the black bars (if possible)."

This worked perfectly! Or at least in the same 5 titles I tested. If I run into a problem, I will post back here, but right now this is working great! Many thanks, Hendrik!

Another question - once the percentage shift is working, will it work together with the "limit subtitles to active video" option? That is, if the "limit" option is checked, can the percentage shift be used to adjust the position further? As it stands right now, the positioning is PERFECT, but I was just wondering.

Edit: Oh, and one more question - why is there an XML file being created now?

[Hendrik]

I have good news/bad news:

"2. NEW: Added an option to control subtitle position globally (as a percentage shift from the default position)."

This does not seem to be working, and which way are the subs supposed to shift...up and down or right and left? I see no movement at all in about 5 titles that I tested.

Positive values shift down, negative values shift up - however, there is very little space to shift down, as down is already almost at the screen border by default, and we don't let you go outside.

Another question - once the percentage shift is working, will it work together with the "limit subtitles to active video" option? That is, if the "limit" option is checked, can the percentage shift be used to adjust the position further? As it stands right now, the positioning is PERFECT, but I was just wondering.

They should work together, however the shift may not let you leave the active video rect.

[Bob Sorel]

Oh! I will retest today..I also assumed that a positive number shifted upwards and did not even try negative numbers, so that may be why I thought the shift was not working. I will get back to you ASAP.

[Hendrik]

This is the same setting as the OSD subtitle shift option - except now global and you can directly enter a number. Changing it to be different from the OSD would be very confusing.

[Bob Sorel]

For the sake of brevity, I will label one control "checkbox" and the other control "percentage".

Ok, I just spent about 15 minutes with the 2 controls and I made the following observations on 2 episodes of the series "Fallout" in MKV format. All episodes are identical as to how they were created and processed.

Episode #1:

1. Played with the 2 controls and BOTH behaved somewhat as expected, except that at one point "checkbox" stopped working, and I could not get it to work again no matter what I tried.
2. "Percentage" worked at all times and never failed.

Episode #2:

1. Played with the 2 controls and BOTH behaved EXACTLY as expected, and I was not able to recreate the problem that I had on the first episode. "Checkbox" remained effective no matter how hard I tried to break it.
2. "Percentage" worked EXACTLY the same as it did in episode #1.

Also, once again, a mysterious "sidecar" XML was created for each episode, and it seemed to be created at random times. I have no idea what is going on with that. Thinking that there might be information there that was affecting the usage of the controls, I tried deleting the file every time one would appear.

So, in my quick test of 2 files, the results were inconsistent, and I have no idea what I did to break one and not the other. I will need to test this further when I have some time (maybe later today) and can observe and log my procedure to see if I can replicate results. I was not trying to break "checkbox" in the first episode...it just caught me off guard when it failed and I could not get it working again.

If there is anything specific you want me to do, just let me know and I will follow your instructions.

Thanks for your help...I'll check in later.

[Hendrik]

Changing these options while playback is going might not work in all situations - as subtitles may already be rendered and cached. But these are global options you should set once and leave be, otherwise you want per-file options, so that sounds OK to me.

Note that there is also a difference in behavior with text and bitmap subtitles. This will _mostly_ affect text only. Also when black bars are baked into the image, you need black bar cropping enabled and black bar analysis performed for the checkbox to know what is actual image beyond the black bars.

XML Sidecar files can be disabled in the settings
General -> Import & Tagging -> Write to external sidecar files for media types: (remove Video)

[Bob Sorel]

Thanks for the info, Hendrik...this helps me understand what is going on a lot better.

Now for my new report. I spent more time with the same 2 files and also some other files as well. Due to my haste the first time, I had a couple of things wrong:

1. "Checkbox" never worked on episode #1...I obviously remembered incorrectly.
2. Episodes #1 and #2 are NOT identically created/processed. I found this out by using CNTRL-J while the videos were playing.

Episode #1 is listed as:

Window - 3840X2160
Input - 3840X2160

Based on what you just told me, that indicates to me that the black bars are baked in.

Episode #2 is listed as:

Window - 3840X2160
Input - 3840X1600

That tells me that the black bars are not baked in.

The difference in these 2 files explains the difference in behavior that I am observing, and both controls are working correctly.

I tested about another 6 files with differing Windows and Inputs and behavior was now very predictable and consistent.

For my particular preferences with a CIH setup, "percentage" is the best global control setting due to the inconsistency of baked in black bars from one video to the next, but others might find "checkbox" a better solution...each person can take his choice, or may come up with a solution that combines the two.

This is the same setting as the OSD subtitle shift option - except now global and you can directly enter a number. Changing it to be different from the OSD would be very confusing.

This is not correct from the end user's point of view. The OSD simply uses the terms "Up" and "Down" and we have no idea whether or not the value is "+" or "-". I can adjust either way since I now know which is which, but I still think "+" values would be more intuitive to shift a subtitle upwards...It is of course your call.

Thanks again for the information and your hard work...these changes make me very happy and it is my hope that many other users will like it as well!

[JimH]

Split this to preserve the discussion and be able to move it to the MC32 board.

[Hendrik]

This is not correct from the end user's point of view. The OSD simply uses the terms "Up" and "Down" and we have no idea whether or not the value is "+" or "-". I can adjust either way since I now know which is which, but I still think "+" values would be more intuitive to shift a subtitle upwards...It is of course your call.

Ah I was confusing it with the image shift, which just shows you numbers - but also with positive being down.
For me it just makes sense, since positions start from the top (top left corner, really), so any positive vertical shift is down. But everyone has their own context.

I'll look into adding a comment on the option at least.

[bogdanbz]

I would like to know how the subtitle position works now:
- is the position defined is ass/ssa subtitle files still used or is it overridden all the time
- does this have an effect only on text subtitles, or does it also impact DVD and BluRay subtitles?

[Hendrik]

I would like to know how the subtitle position works now:
- is the position defined is ass/ssa subtitle files still used or is it overridden all the time
- does this have an effect only on text subtitles, or does it also impact DVD and BluRay subtitles?

It doesn't apply to ASS/SSA due to the way it handles its own optimized rendering.
It does apply to bitmap subtitles .. if possible. Depends on how the bitmap is made up.

But it only ever applies if you actually touch any of the options. Its just a position shift. If its at 0, it will remain where it always was.

[Hendrik]

Some notes on testing:
- Changing the global settings does not necessarily apply while you are playing - especially the checkbox. Restarting playback might be required.
- The per-file and the global setting both get applied - essentially just added together. If global is 10% up, and per-file is 10% up, you get 20% up. Or if global is 10% up, and per file is 10% down, you get 0% movement.
- Due to the above, if you have excessive settings on one of them, it might make the other one appear non-functional. Eg. global 100% down won't actually move the subtitles much as the border limits it, but it would require over 100% per-file up to get any result (which is impossible) - so use sane values.
- Baked in black bars can be handled with black bar detection and cropping in JRVR for a more consistent result.

The "reset switch" is a good idea, or some general way to remove past individual settings that now have global settings.

You can clear the "Playback Info" field on all files to reset the per-file settings, but it would also reset any other per-file playback settings. Maybe a tool to reset parts of that might be useful in the Library Tools sections.

[Bob Sorel]

Some notes on testing:
- Changing the global settings does not necessarily apply while you are playing - especially the checkbox. Restarting playback might be required.

Yes, I always perform a full stop when making any changes in global settings, and then I restart - never on-the fly or even while paused.

- The per-file and the global setting both get applied - essentially just added together. If global is 10% up, and per-file is 10% up, you get 20% up. Or if global is 10% up, and per file is 10% down, you get 0% movement.

Exactly what I expected and have observed...working correctly here.

- Due to the above, if you have excessive settings on one of them, it might make the other one appear non-functional. Eg. global 100% down won't actually move the subtitles much as the border limits it, but it would require over 100% per-file up to get any result (which is impossible) - so use sane values.

Yes, makes perfect sense!

- Baked in black bars can be handled with black bar detection and cropping in JRVR for a more consistent result.

I will have to visit that possibility. Right now I have not constructed a library, but simply load using the standard Windows requestor:  Standard View(upper left hand corner) File/Open media file/(navigate to file)/Load.

You can clear the "Playback Info" field on all files to reset the per-file settings, but it would also reset any other per-file playback settings. Maybe a tool to reset parts of that might be useful in the Library Tools sections.

Yes!     ....or in the same place where the 2 other global settings reside now...not everybody uses the Library feature.

[JimH]

Split Subtitle Position with madVR