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[Shasta Mike]

My Id is not upgradeable to the latest MC and I want to take advantage of MC32's features especially transferring libraries between computers.  And, the Id has problems rebooting after power outages and after a couple years I am over trying to learn Linux. Plus, syncing libraries between a couple Windows 10 computers and Linux Id is a PITA for me.   

Mainly, I want something with Windows 11 and need the PC for outputting music into my Class D audiophile music system.  I am not streaming video here though if it could I might use that.  We mostly have HP's around the house.  I've read a bunch of reviews on various small form factor PC's and am not interested in building anything myself - been there, done that, not interested.   

I use an external Samsung 4TB SSD for storing music so need a few fast USB ports. I'm using the M04Media app on an Android and iPhone. That's about it for basic requirements. 

And, recs for an inexpensive micro/mini/small-form-factor Win11 PC? 

[eve]

My Id is not upgradeable to the latest MC and I want to take advantage of MC32's features especially transferring libraries between computers.  And, the Id has problems rebooting after power outages and after a couple years I am over trying to learn Linux. Plus, syncing libraries between a couple Windows 10 computers and Linux Id is a PITA for me.   

Mainly, I want something with Windows 11 and need the PC for outputting music into my Class D audiophile music system.  I am not streaming video here though if it could I might use that.  We mostly have HP's around the house.  I've read a bunch of reviews on various small form factor PC's and am not interested in building anything myself - been there, done that, not interested.   

I use an external Samsung 4TB SSD for storing music so need a few fast USB ports. I'm using the M04Media app on an Android and iPhone. That's about it for basic requirements. 

And, recs for an inexpensive micro/mini/small-form-factor Win11 PC?

Honestly there's a million recommendations, all very similar that could be made here. A good starter is how small do you want to go (like I have these tiny Mele 3C and 4Cs, and then I have bigger ones)? There's lots of fanless options too that are smart if the machine is in your listening environment.


https://www.amazon.com/MeLE-Mini-Quieter-4C-Astrophotography/dp/B0CP3YL6J7

Might be almost too small, depending on what you're after.

[Shasta Mike]

Honestly there's a million recommendations, all very similar that could be made here. A good starter is how small do you want to go (like I have these tiny Mele 3C and 4Cs, and then I have bigger ones)? There's lots of fanless options too that are smart if the machine is in your listening environment.


https://www.amazon.com/MeLE-Mini-Quieter-4C-Astrophotography/dp/B0CP3YL6J7

Might be almost too small, depending on what you're after.

1. Having an Id/NUC now I am comfortable with that form factor but a little larger is fine. 2. Fanless is nice because it does sit on top of the preamp and amp.  But, a small fan is something I am not going to hear.  3.  The MeLE looked good though a few comments about getting hot are concerning but Amazon ratings/comments have to be taken with a grain of salt as they say.  Since the easiest location is on top of my preamp, heat is somewhat a concern  4. A million recs!  Agree, that is why I posted here.  I definitely got lost.  haha

Overall though, the MeLE or similar is fine.  I like reliability and am willing to pay for it if it is real.  So, I normally stick to trusted brand names that have a reputation for exemplary service.  If I didn't hate Apple OS with a passion I would probably go for one of their small ones like the Apple Mac Mini.  https://www.bestbuy.com/site/apple-mac-mini-desktop-m2-chip-8gb-memory-256gb-ssd-latest-model-silver/6427500.p?skuId=6427500&extStoreId=144&utm_source=feed&ref=212&loc=appledt&gad_source=1 

Many thanks!

[eve]

1. Having an Id/NUC now I am comfortable with that form factor but a little larger is fine. 2. Fanless is nice because it does sit on top of the preamp and amp.  But, a small fan is something I am not going to hear.  3.  The MeLE looked good though a few comments about getting hot are concerning but Amazon ratings/comments have to be taken with a grain of salt as they say.  Since the easiest location is on top of my preamp, heat is somewhat a concern  4. A million recs!  Agree, that is why I posted here.  I definitely got lost.  haha

Overall though, the MeLE or similar is fine.  I like reliability and am willing to pay for it if it is real.  So, I normally stick to trusted brand names that have a reputation for exemplary service.  If I didn't hate Apple OS with a passion I would probably go for one of their small ones like the Apple Mac Mini.  https://www.bestbuy.com/site/apple-mac-mini-desktop-m2-chip-8gb-memory-256gb-ssd-latest-model-silver/6427500.p?skuId=6427500&extStoreId=144&utm_source=feed&ref=212&loc=appledt&gad_source=1 

Many thanks!

I've had a couple of these Mele's running 24/7 for a year and a half ish. No issues. They do get a little hot. I actually tossed a heatsink I had lying around ON TOP of one (yeah, not ideal, but it happened to be like the exact same size as the Mele by chance) and got a ~9 degree reduction in temps. But in all honesty, I don't find the temps concerning on any of them.

I wouldn't expect it's worthwhile to pay for a 'known' brand here, the cost is relatively low (you're getting hit for like maybe 200-300 bucks tops), and the name brands are significantly more expensive without much benefit (at least for what you seem to want to do with it).


The Mele's were really good for harvesting (so like one of my AES67 endpoints has a board from an Mele 3C in it)

[BryanC]

There are plenty of fanless N100/i3-N305 equivalents out there, they look like routers so you may overlook them at first, but they make great low powered machines. I would recommend installing your own ram and m.2 since the manufacturers tend to skimp for margins on those components.

[Awesome Donkey]

Can vouch for them, I personally use a N305 and love it. If you're just listening to music a N100 would be perfect.

[eve]

Can vouch for them, I personally use a N305 and love it. If you're just listening to music a N100 would be perfect.

Yep spot on. N100 (or even N5105s) for music, going to the N305 for video is probably worthwhile. Above that, like if you want some serious video perf, it does make sense to look at MinisForum's offerings since while sometimes a bit more expensive, they're pretty solid.

[eve]

There are plenty of fanless N100/i3-N305 equivalents out there, they look like routers so you may overlook them at first, but they make great low powered machines. I would recommend installing your own ram and m.2 since the manufacturers tend to skimp for margins on those components.

They sip power, they're fanless and if you for whatever reason want 'clean power', you can easily run one off a linear PSU. Not to mention, some of the Router ones come with SFP so you *could* go all optical if you're in 'audiophile niche' territory and that concerns you.

I get rid of the Wifi on mine where possible. Haven't started using SFP on them though, unshielded cat6 is fine (and I do all my audio transport over ip)

[Shasta Mike]

Yep spot on. N100 (or even N5105s) for music, going to the N305 for video is probably worthwhile. Above that, like if you want some serious video perf, it does make sense to look at MinisForum's offerings since while sometimes a bit more expensive, they're pretty solid.

thanks to everyone for the recs.  I looked on Amazon at various N95 and N100 and got a little freaked about some comments about some (kamrui) coming loaded with Trojans or worms that opened up networks.  Paying a bit more for a trusted brand is worth it to me. 

This one on the mnisforum is probably overkill but looked fine to me.  Of course when trying to buy then I see it is sold out.  haha   https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-nab6?variant=45202167267573

 

This one is available and is probably more appropriate based on everyone's consensus recommendations >>> https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-un100l-1?variant=44341568700661

[WinoOutWest]

Another option is a used top-of-line micro (Dell, HP, Lenovo).  Most of these sold (in qty) on eBay are corporate off-lease units that are refurbished.  I have been selling these to my clients for about 5-6 years now (for those that need a solid, reliable office or home PC and don't need the latest and greatest) and never had a single issue with the 25 or so I have purchased.  Some suppliers will offer a full-year warranty and there are a variety of processor/memory options.  Parts and support are readily available as well as there are a ton of these things out there.  Just pick a reputable seller - all the ones I've purchased would be tough to tell from new.
It is also what has served as my JRiver HTPC that mainly drives my music.
Here's one example:
 https://www.ebay.com/itm/176357981588

Cheers!

[Awesome Donkey]

thanks to everyone for the recs.  I looked on Amazon at various N95 and N100 and got a little freaked about some comments about some (kamrui) coming loaded with Trojans or worms that opened up networks.  Paying a bit more for a trusted brand is worth it to me.

Personally I'd do what Bryan said and replace the M.2 NVMe SSD right off the bat then install a fresh OS (Windows, Linux, etc.). Then issues like trojans, adware/spyware, etc. wouldn't be an issue. Just make sure if you're going to do this and install Windows that you have the ethernet and Wi-Fi drivers on a USB stick or something so you can install them as you likely won't have internet access to get them otherwise.

I got a Topton N305 off AliExpress but there's others like CWWK (which apparently uses slightly better PSUs) and Hunsn.

[Shasta Mike]

Personally I'd do what Bryan said and replace the M.2 NVMe SSD right off the bat then install a fresh OS (Windows, Linux, etc.). Then issues like trojans, adware/spyware, etc. wouldn't be an issue. Just make sure if you're going to do this and install Windows that you have the ethernet and Wi-Fi drivers on a USB stick or something so you can install them as you likely won't have internet access to get them otherwise.

Wish I had the experience doing this.  I've installed Win95 onto a new HDD once when building a video editing PC ~20 years ago.  I'm sure it is not too difficult but I don't have the experience. That was back in the day when using a Windows install CD and long key numbers and such. 

I don't understand how digital OS licenses work. And, I don't have access to IT guys like when working at a big tech company whose brain I could pick and would walk me through stuff when needed.     

[Shasta Mike]

Another option is a used top-of-line micro (Dell, HP, Lenovo).  Most of these sold (in qty) on eBay are corporate off-lease units that are refurbished.  I have been selling these to my clients for about 5-6 years now (for those that need a solid, reliable office or home PC and don't need the latest and greatest) and never had a single issue with the 25 or so I have purchased.  Some suppliers will offer a full-year warranty and there are a variety of processor/memory options.  Parts and support are readily available as well as there are a ton of these things out there.  Just pick a reputable seller - all the ones I've purchased would be tough to tell from new.
It is also what has served as my JRiver HTPC that mainly drives my music.
Here's one example:
 https://www.ebay.com/itm/176357981588

Cheers!

  Thanks!  ordered!  $60 - what's not to like?   

[BryanC]

  Thanks!  ordered!  $60 - what's not to like?

Doesn't support W11 and W10 is EOL in a year.

[Awesome Donkey]

Yeah, unless you're going to run Linux on it it's pretty much already obsolete, IMO.

[eve]

Personally I'd do what Bryan said and replace the M.2 NVMe SSD right off the bat then install a fresh OS (Windows, Linux, etc.). Then issues like trojans, adware/spyware, etc. wouldn't be an issue. Just make sure if you're going to do this and install Windows that you have the ethernet and Wi-Fi drivers on a USB stick or something so you can install them as you likely won't have internet access to get them otherwise.

I got a Topton N305 off AliExpress but there's others like CWWK (which apparently uses slightly better PSUs) and Hunsn.

Honestly I feel dumb for not mentioning this. I just assumed everyone did this by default. Cant' really stop compromised hardware itself but any prebuilt systems like these I get, I pull the drives and wipe before they are put into service or connected to the network. I'd *never* trust the OS on one. If you're buying the older HP , Dell , Lenovo micros, refurbed, that same mentality applies. Do *not* use whatever comes with the system. Been getting killer deals on these HP 800s

[Shasta Mike]

Doesn't support W11 and W10 is EOL in a year.

  help me out - it says Win 11 Pro is installed. 

[WinoOutWest]

yeah - it is pretty easy to install Win11 on these older PCs.  I've got all of mine running Win11 Pro and haven't had a single problem.

[craigmcg]

I too have Win 11 installed on pcs that don't officially support it BUT there is a risk that MS could make a change/update that would prevent any such unsupported PC from normal functionality without advance notice. Since this would generate outrage among users affected, it may not be likely but...

Another thing is that Windows 12 is rumoured to be coming in late 2024 or 2025 so this could also have impacts on using older PCs unless people are willing and able to switch to Linux.

[Awesome Donkey]

yeah - it is pretty easy to install Win11 on these older PCs.  I've got all of mine running Win11 Pro and haven't had a single problem.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Windows 11 is unsupported on those older PCs and eventually will either break or not update anymore.

If you're running Windows 11 it's best to do it on supported hardware. For older hardware like those eBay PCs it'd be better if they ran Linux since Windows 10's going EOL in a year and a half. Having them with Windows 11 pre-installed is such a risk and I'm a little surprised eBay hasn't started cracking down on those listings (older, unsupported PCs running unsupported Windows 11) because they're misleading buyers into thinking e-waste that should be recycled is as good as other "modern" PC hardware just because it's running Windows 11 but it's really not. Using those eBay PCs are as risky if not more risky than using mini PCs from AliExpress and Amazon since most users who buy them are probably using the unsupported Windows 11 OS they ship with instead of reinstalling it themselves with the (supported) OS of their choosing from scratch.

Who knows what little surprises may be included? At least the Intel N100 and N305 CPU mini PCs from AliExpress and Amazon actually support Windows 11 and they support TPM 2.0 and secure boot, just make sure if you get one to do a clean OS install of course. And I can say after doing a clean Windows 11 install on a N305 that it runs beautifully AND Windows 11 is fully supported with no hacks or workarounds needed. Just my two cents.

[Shasta Mike]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Windows 11 is unsupported on those older PCs and eventually will either break or not update anymore.

If you're running Windows 11 it's best to do it on supported hardware. For older hardware like those eBay PCs it'd be better if they ran Linux since Windows 10's going EOL in a year and a half. Having them with Windows 11 pre-installed is such a risk and I'm a little surprised eBay hasn't started cracking down on those listings (older, unsupported PCs running unsupported Windows 11) because they're misleading buyers into thinking e-waste that should be recycled is as good as other "modern" PC hardware just because it's running Windows 11 but it's really not. Using those eBay PCs are as risky if not more risky than using mini PCs from AliExpress and Amazon since most users who buy them are probably using the unsupported Windows 11 OS they ship with instead of reinstalling it themselves with the (supported) OS of their choosing from scratch.

Who knows what little surprises may be included? At least the Intel N100 and N305 CPU mini PCs from AliExpress and Amazon actually support Windows 11 and they support TPM 2.0 and secure boot, just make sure if you get one to do a clean OS install of course. And I can say after doing a clean Windows 11 install on a N305 that it runs beautifully AND Windows 11 is fully supported with no hacks or workarounds needed. Just my two cents.

  thanks for the explanation.  looks like i'm going to have to teach myself how to do a reinstall.  think i found a good reference procedure on the Microsoft site..........   https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsinsider/cleaninstall  looks straight-forward from my first read through.   

[WinoOutWest]

This a great tool as well:
https://www.geeksinphoenix.com/blog/post/2023/04/10/create-custom-windows-installation-media-with-rufus

FYI your windows license will be picked up automatically when you install a clean Windows.  In my experience even v11 installs without needing a new license on these older brand name boxes where they were never built to run v11.

[eve]

This a great tool as well:
https://www.geeksinphoenix.com/blog/post/2023/04/10/create-custom-windows-installation-media-with-rufus

FYI your windows license will be picked up automatically when you install a clean Windows.  In my experience even v11 installs without needing a new license on these older brand name boxes where they were never built to run v11.

Unless you go changing major things about the system itself (I find motherboards, and cpus are the major culprits), the Windows activation should carry over since it's tied to a  HWID (hence why certain things will trigger an issue).

[eve]

This a great tool as well:
https://www.geeksinphoenix.com/blog/post/2023/04/10/create-custom-windows-installation-media-with-rufus

FYI your windows license will be picked up automatically when you install a clean Windows.  In my experience even v11 installs without needing a new license on these older brand name boxes where they were never built to run v11.

Rufus is my go to. For Windows specifically, if you need an up to date unmodified image, use MS's media creation tool, if you need your own images, that's on you and Rufus will possibly come in handy depending on how you go about it. I have a few pre-built Windows images for things (this lets me pre-configure them and remove as much telemetry as possible, set up all my group policy stuff, chop out things I don't need, etc). I deploy Windows much more infrequently (at least for myself) now.

[newsposter]

NTLite and BCForward should also be mentioned as good tools to trim down windows installs, both before and after installation.

For additional tweaking on already-installed images, I use the WinAero tweaker.

[nathan_h]

This thread is interesting.  I'm not opposed to buying a refurb system but the specs to target are unclear, especially on the video performance side.

Presumably not something like https://www.ebay.com/itm/256615722105 or
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256618511496 or
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335425302520 right?  Though that latter one seems to have a good video section?

maybe https://www.ebay.com/p/15062482442?iid=126083569601

but probably more like https://www.ebay.com/itm/145801452535

Yep spot on. N100 (or even N5105s) for music, going to the N305 for video is probably worthwhile. Above that, like if you want some serious video perf, it does make sense to look at MinisForum's offerings since while sometimes a bit more expensive, they're pretty solid.

Presumably if one wants to make full use of the extensive options in the video portion of JRiver, including scaling, tone mapping and so on, one would want a discrete GPU?  Which lineup from MinisForum would be the place to start looking?

[BryanC]

This thread is interesting.  I'm not opposed to buying a refurb system but the specs to target are unclear, especially on the video performance side.

Presumably not something like https://www.ebay.com/itm/256615722105 or
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256618511496 or
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335425302520 right?  Though that latter one seems to have a good video section?

maybe https://www.ebay.com/p/15062482442?iid=126083569601

but probably more like https://www.ebay.com/itm/145801452535

Presumably if one wants to make full use of the extensive options in the video portion of JRiver, including scaling, tone mapping and so on, one would want a discrete GPU?  Which lineup from MinisForum would be the place to start looking?

I can max out JRVR settings on all content with a Ryzen 7735HS mini PC but I don't tonemap, only HDR passthrough,  If you want to test an integrated solution the best option would be an 8840U or 8845HS mini PC.

[nathan_h]

I can max out JRVR settings on all content with a Ryzen 7735HS mini PC but I don't tonemap, only HDR passthrough,  If you want to test an integrated solution the best option would be an 8840U or 8845HS mini PC.

Thanks for the recommendations. I’m open to a discrete gpu but it seems that tends to up the cost and the form factor size considerably.

I suppose with something like this I could add an external gpu in the future if that became of use….

https://www.amazon.com/FIREBAT-Desktop-Computer-Windows-HDMI1-4/dp/B0D1QJJPLY/


Unfortunately I don’t see that anyone has benchmarked that integrated gpu yet.

[Shasta Mike]

To close this out, I ended up with a refurbed HP Elite G3 that people have said will go Windows EOL.  Win 11 reinstalled OK using Rufus and maybe there will be upgrade issues later.  Right now with it just running MC and some other light clients like OPVN, Filezilla, and Chrome it is fine.  For $60 on Ebay it was a great way for me to do a POC for this setup, learn how to do clean installs with Rufus, and get my tech skills upgraded a little. 

I was really done with the Id and Linux.  That was definitely a tech tangent not for me.  Linux was not intuitive for me and I know to stick with Windows devices.  Going back and forth moving files, libraries and playlists from a Linux machine to a Windows machine and vice versa was too complicated for just managing and listening to music. For God's sake, why cannot the slashes on file folder formats go the same way? Just one example of a constant irritant.  And then after every power outage the Id got problematic with rebooting and might take 5 tries for the OS to boot.  Bye, bye..........

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.  I read every comment and tried to learn from all of you even if your tech skills are so far above mine it was like learning a new language.  I need/needed to learn that language!! Now, if the G3 truly goes EOL I know what to look for spec wise for my next machine.   

[nathan_h]

Thanks for the update.