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Author Topic: OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners  (Read 3761 times)

Ton

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OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« on: June 01, 2004, 01:32:15 pm »

(Maybe I should post this in the Portable Digital Players part, but I think it draws more attention here).
I assume that there are a lot of iRiver users here and maybe all, or the biggest part of it,  already know it. Still I would like them that don't know to have a look at the MisticRiver forum and in particular to the thread about a petition to iRiver  about a very annoying bug in the H series, that causes the harddisk to keep spinning when it should not, resulting in shorter battery life and unnecessary wear.
Look here:
http://www.iriver.us/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2010
and for the petition itself to this:
http://www.iriver.us/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2055&sid=610c57bcffc3ebf3e1ef19d704c4d8e5
Please join and sign the petition
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Sweet Spot

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Re:OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2004, 02:26:06 pm »

A couple of thank you's...Ton, thanks for bringing this up, and getting this posted, to the mods/admins, thank you for allowing Ton to post the link to the petition and thanks to those who may eventually participate.  

Just a quick word. One does not need to be an owner of any Iriver product in order to support the petition. It's basically about getting as much support as possible, regardless of who it comes from. A petition is usually a very good way to get recognition from those who would ordinarily not raise a brow for anything...So I am asking as a personal favour, to all of you who are reading this, to help out your fellow tech junkie/audio enthusiast in a time of need. It's all about community, and I know that the MC community is a good one...

Best regards,
Sweet Spot
Mistic River Admin
valkyre00@yahoo.com
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ph_bradley

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Re:OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2004, 05:01:29 pm »

why exactly have a petition for support? you just want a show of people agreeing with you. I'm sure iriver are perfectly aware of this bug and are working hard to resolve it. They have been heavily criticised recent;y for being late with their announced firmware release, but really all hard/software companies have delays, even JRiver. where JRiver went right, and iriver went wrong, is the amount of information it fed the avid community. Recently though, JRiver has been keeping schtum about what's going on over there. That's annoying, and it comes across as them doing sod all, perhaps being on holiday. Iriver have this problem, but multiplied many times over because of the sheer lack of information. people assume they aren't listening, and aren't fixing bugs that are reported to them. I, on the other hand, believe they are, and that their silence is simply misinterpreted as lack of care for their users' woes. So perhaps you should create another petition, to stop users whining and to demand more information from IRiver, e.g. a daily update of the progress of their work. Releasing beta's is also a very good idea, however unlike JRiver this is beta FIRMWARE which is more dangerous. so that's out of the question.
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Sweet Spot

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Re:OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2004, 09:51:01 pm »

Dude, no offense, but I happen to know a few things that some others may not know concerning these issues, and I wouldn't have started this petition if I wasn't sure that it wasn't a good move. I also know, that the Iriver techs have NOT been aware of this issue which has been obvious to a bunch of Mistic River members since last September, but did not take any action and only made small comments here and there out of logic which said that Iriver would be on it.

In fact, a very recent E-mail from Iris, has shown that they were in fact NOT aware of the problem, and that it would be "looked into".  That quoted statement unfortunately, is the typical response which Iriver owners are used to receiving when no real answer is available, or when no real intentions to actually take up the problem seems to be the case.

Don't get me wrong, I do support Iriver, in more ways than one...but should that mean shutting my mouth, when there's an opportunity to show them where there's room for improvement ? No. Because that would make me just a suck up with very little respect for them or myself. Sorry, I'm not the type of person who just sits idly by during crunch time. Not my style.  

Quote
why exactly have a petition for support? you just want a show of people agreeing with you.
 That's pretty freegin' offensive to say the least. You really ought to get your facts straight before making such ignorant statements like that. Or at least try and think about someone other than yourself. I didn't start the petition for some self serving reason, like to receive senseless praise or agreement (I could just bash Iriver at their own site for that )  ! I started it FOR people who were confused about the why's and what repercussions those would have, while being suspicious about it from the start. Why exactly has this come up now, more than ever ? Because there are more IHP users now more than ever. Pretty simple logic.

Furthermore, I realize that Iriver have many things to work on, but this petition should alert them to the fact that other things may have to take a back seat while this MAJOR bug, should take priority. There are many other things to be said about this, but I digress, simply because I refuse to turn this into a satisfactory answer for you. If you personally disagree with what I'm doing, that's your business. Just know that there are a LOT more people, including myself obviously, who disagree with you to no end.
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ph_bradley

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Re:OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2004, 05:57:56 am »

why exactly have a petition for support? you just want a show of people agreeing with you.

there's no way you can disagree witht this. if people agree with you, your cause has added potential to achieve change. I am not an 'iriver suck-up', i just think that they have such a huge backlog of things to do, the effectiveness of a petition is going to be reduced because frankly, they don't have time to concentrate on petitions. they just need to iron out all the bugs, one by one.

starting up a petition that you take so seriously as to seek out other forums to spam, just to get your particular annoyance higher up in their priorities list, is frankly a disgusting act of self-interest (and when i say self, i include in it all your buddies that decided it would be a good idea to start up a petition for this). Because that's what a petition is (see above). How at all have i been in anyway egocentric?

i want to see this issue sorted as much as you do. I'm concerned that a) my massive battery life possibly doesn't last as long as it possibly could and b) because it's added wear and tear on my harddrive. It simply isn't the case that i disagree with the people signing your petition. I don't.

NEVERTHELESS do you REALLY think that a company that is already a week behind schedule will have the time to give extra consideration (more than they have already) to your issue, whether 300, 500 or even 1000 sign up to your website? I would very much hope to believe they are already working on it. but from the lack of communication on their part i assume they are in a right panic at the moment, and blowing things up out of propotion by effectively screaming in their ears via your petition or their forums (which are a real nightmare, they should turn off anonymous posting and get some proper moderators in). By constantly going OT in other people's bug reports by complaining about your own particular haggle ("hah, if you think that's a problem, check out the hard drive spinning bug, and if you think it shouldn't exist sign my petition" or whatever), you make their forums a complete waste of time.

It would be far more effective to set up a Bugs forum on misitc river forums with clearly presented bug reports, examples of how to replicate the error, and suggestions as to how to iron out the bugs. That way, iriver engineers can work their way through the problems one by one in a clear-cut, effective way. That's what their own forums were meant to do, before they became what they are now.
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Sweet Spot

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Re:OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2004, 10:25:18 am »

Quote
why exactly have a petition for support? you just want a show of people agreeing with you.

there's no way you can disagree witht this. if people agree with you, your cause has added potential to achieve change

You're arguing logistical technicalities. I'm not. The need for support, was spawned out of very apparent intolerance from MANY owners accross various forums. The fact that *I* decided to do something in order to be of help to those who were looking for it, IS that technical part of your gripe with my petition. Perhaps no one else would have taken up a petition, but that's not my concern. I personally have nothing to lose or gain by doing this. However, I AM in a position, which may enable me to have the users voices be heard since as the admin of Mistic, I have some connections through Mistic/ Iriver, who can see to it, that because of the developing relationship between the two, more likely than not, something positive will come out of such actions.

What else...I wasn't calling you in particular a "suck up", it was a general statement.  
Quote
starting up a petition that you take so seriously as to seek out other forums to spam, just to get your particular annoyance higher up in their priorities list, is frankly a disgusting act of self-interest (and when i say self, i include in it all your buddies that decided it would be a good idea to start up a petition for this). Because that's what a petition is (see above). How at all have i been in anyway egocentric?

Ok, first off, you have once again shown that you assume WAY too much. The OP (ton) by my suggestion when he asked about posting this topic, ASKED PERMISSION from one of (or maybe more, don't know) the admins here. Had whom ever cleared this topic as postable, thought that it was spam material from the get go, I'm sure that we wouldn't be having this conversation.  You have a somewhat skewed idea of what the internet is for IMO. It is a place where people seek out information, and where information is able to be spread. Sure, there are protocols and rules of etiquette to be followed, but for YOU to sit there, as an inactive yet opinionated participant, IS extremely "egocentric".

And do I take this seriously ? Of course I do ! It would be absurd and a contradiction for me to even bother taking up such a project if  I, or my "buddies" weren't ! So because you are too lazy to get involved, that should mean everyone should follow your lead ? If that was the case, this world would be in deeper crap than it already is. Follow your own set of rules, that's cool, but do YOU HONESTLY think that your mindset, and your way of doing things is the only view which should be asserted in this manner ? THAT my friend, is egocentric thinking.  

Furthermore, why should it bother YOU if  100, 200, 500 or a thousand people feel that they're right, and want to try and do something about it ? It's like the ol' if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all, because in the end, you'll have done NOTHING to change the situation..and even if you did, it would be obvious that the change you caused was more on the negative side of things...so again, why bother ?
Quote
NEVERTHELESS do you REALLY think that a company that is already a week behind schedule will have the time to give extra consideration (more than they have already) to your issue, whether 300, 500 or even 1000 sign up to your website?
I don't know. Can't say. But should that mean losing interest in something that people feel strongly about ?  I guess that if we didn't try, we'd never know for sure, and many people would rather know for sure, than not at all. It's obvious that we have two entirely different opinions on this, and it's probably safer to agree on disagreeing :)  Also, concerning the delay, one thing has nothing to do with another. In fact, you may be right, and part of the delay may be because they're actually working on the HD bug atm. Doubtful, but who knows. Point is, the Iriver team DID NOT KNOW about this, and users feel that it should be addressed even before they continue on with further firmware mods. Will this get their attention ? Hope so ! That's the point.

Quote
It would be far more effective to set up a Bugs forum on misitc river forums with clearly presented bug reports, examples of how to replicate the error, and suggestions as to how to iron out the bugs. That way, iriver engineers can work their way through the problems one by one in a clear-cut, effective way. That's what their own forums were meant to do, before they became what they are now

I don't know about "far more effective", but I do agree that it's a fine idea.  We actually had a section dedicated to such things, but recently had a huge prune dump accident ( doh) on the site, and it was lost.  It will most likely be resurrected again though. Problem with that one though is, no matter how accurate the bug reports are, or how many there are, this doesn't mean that Iriver will ever see them. And think about this for a second...if they ever did, do you think it would be a very good idea on their part to acknowledge having seen such information ? NOPE. Because then they'd have an immediate responsibility to produce results, or face the ultimate music...losing customers for not coming through. Just a bad business tactic for a company who isn't known for good CS.



Regards,
Doug
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ph_bradley

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Re:OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2004, 01:29:37 pm »

first off, i sincerely apologise for assuming this was spam.

nevertheless, throughout that fine post you clevelry portray me as lazy and self-centred, and yet still don't manage to justfy that petition.

I say this because of the apparent contradiction you express. On the one hand, you believe that having lots of people backing one single issue will present iriver with the undeniable fact that something needs to be done. I agree. but i think (and you do not) that they're NOT being lazy and are, in fact working to solve as many bugs as they can in as short a timeperiod as possible. Since neither of us works in the software development section of that particular company, and your claimed 'links' are nothing concrete (from what i can gleam from your above posts, again, excuse me if in fact you do have a source that gives you daily progress updates on the firmware, like we do here at JRiver), that point is moot, and we must agree to disagree until iRiver does decide to keep in touch with the community.

Now back to my point, sorry for the disgression. You believe that a petition will force iriver into action. you THEN say
Quote
do you think it would be a very good idea on their part to acknowledge having seen such information ? NOPE. Because then they'd have an immediate responsibility to produce results, or face the ultimate music
i'm sure now you can see the contradiction in philosophy you attribute to iriver.

I have no technical gripe with the petition, just your response to my original assertion of my disbelief that something will come of it, other than a reprioritisation and a subsequent loss of time by the iriver team. I commend your readiness to act, but i think your energy is misdirected (see my above post as to why - its that section you decided not to tackle, and simply label as my 'laziness')

so in future i wish you all the best with your petitioning endeavour, though as a postscript to this, i'd rather you petitioned for better communication from them, and also presented them with a clear and accurate buglist that they, as you say, cannot ignore, but instead can deal with effectively. Instead of the current 'bug submissions' they're meant to be working with on their forums. If you have links at mistic river, even better, because you can relocate the bug reports there, 'coz the iriver forums are long gone down the drain.
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Ton

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Re:OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2004, 01:41:04 pm »

I totally agree with Sweet Spot's reply.
Furthermore I asked indeed JimH for permission to make the original post and he gave it !
I would like to add that, about a week ago, I sent iRiver the following email about the "bug":

"Hello, Since a few months I am a very happy H-120 owner. The sound of my player, which I also registered, is fantastic and the H-120 has a lot of possibilities, like recording and listening to the radio etc. There is however one thing about which I am VERY worried. As far as I have understood from the wellknown and enthusiatic MisticRiver forum and the iRiver international forum as well, many other users share this worries and probably you have already received other emails about this. The problem I am talking about is that the harddisk of the player starts spinning and KEEPS spinning when you go into the file system during playing. I mean this: I start playing a track and listen to that. After a short period the harddisk stops spinning. Then I want to look in the file system and browse through it with the joystick and eventually I return to the screen that shows the track I am already listening to. The harddisk starts spinning then but does NOT stop. It keeps spinning until I stop the player all the way. I noticed this phenomenem only the other day, but now I know why my battery lifetime is so short. Most of the times I hardly reached 6 or 7 hours. And it is not only the battery time I am worried about, but also the unnecessary wear of the harddisk. Now that I know this, I avoid to browse the filesystem to prevent this wear and to prolong my battery lifetime. I assume however that this problem is not meant to be so and that your engineers are working on it. Anyway I would like to hear as soon as possible from you what the plans are to solve this problem, so that I can be a happy iRiver H-120 again. Kind regards Ton"

This is the reply I got:

"Dear Ton van Rijn,
 
Thanks for your email. Would you please kindly note that normally it won't be non-stop spinning.
Would you please format and upgrade your player to the latest firmware?
iHP-120/140 Firmware V1.40(EU)
If you have further enquiries, please feel free to contact us again.
 
Regards  
Shira"  

This already makes clear imo that they didn't know about the problem.

When I told them next that I already had V1.40 since it was released, they replied:

"Dear Ton van Rijn,
 
Thanks for your email again. We are sorry to cause you any inconvenience. We will pass your problem to our engineering team. Please give us sometime to work on it.
 
 
If you have further enquiries, please feel free to contact us again.
 
Regards  
Shira"  



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JimH

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Re:OT: Appeal to ALL iRiver H series (potential) owners
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2004, 01:58:58 pm »

This doesn't seem to be going very well so I'm going to close the thread.

Thanks for trying, Ton.
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