Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[JimH]

I suppose I'll start a fight here and I don't mean to, but this has been nagging at me for a week and if I say something, maybe it will go away.

I want to apologize to the world for the behavior of the Americans in Iraq who tortured prisoners.  

We would like to believe that the U.S. is a civilized place.  I think that, for the most part, it is.  But we really screwed up in Iraq.  

I'm sorry.  I know a lot of Americans are sorry.  Some would say that the ends justified the means, that we had to find out what the people being held knew.  I don't buy it.  No matter how savage the crime, we must not behave like savages ourselves when we try to make sense of it.

It has been a crazy time of hatred lately.  Let's hope we can do better in the future.

[KingSparta]

this has been nagging at me

Me Too, Was Wondering when it would come up

the Americans in Iraq who tortured prisoners.

Tortured maybe a bit strong, abused maybe a better word.

I would like more details on what went on in the prison, but it sounds like some of the things went a bit too far

To include the 11 prisoners who died in US Care.

[Charlemagne 8]

There are a few folks I've heard that say that the Iraqi's are just getting back the treatment that they give us. The first time I heard that, I was flabbergasted, appalled and outraged. I still am but I've recovered enough from the shock that ANYONE could think like that to actually argue back.

Upon further thought I can even understand why they feel that way and I'm sure that the fear and frustration that many of our service people are enduring that a great many feel the same way.

Understanding does not imply condoning. I don't. One of the things that sets humans apart from animals is that we can choose to not act on our feelings. If we did, we would all commit at least one murder a day during rush hour.

Theoretically, we are SUPPOSED to be there to show them that there is a better way. We haven't. At least not by our original actions.

But we HAVE shown them that outrageous acts will be dealt with. I don't doubt that under Saddam, pictures like this would never have been made public and no one would know.

There WILL be an accounting and I would not be suprised to see Rumsfield eventually step down. That won't fix it and some, like the folks who killed that felllow on a video will find ANY excuse to carry out their own outrageous behavior. But it WILL show that Americans as a group will not tolerate inhumanity, especially when we are forced to notice.

Ironically, this has united Americans from both sides of politics like nothing since 9/11. We ALL hate what has happened. Well --- 99% of us do anyway.

CVIII

[kaiynne]

On the whole in cases such as these I think it is the situation, not the people who are to blame.  Although the military is obviously likely to attract some sadistic people (though they try to screen for that) the majority of soldiers are people who had few if any options other than military service, which offers good pay and good benefits as well as the chance of a good education, its probably not an easy choice but it makes sense compared with working at mcdonalds.

I believe that the majority of soldiers are good people, but even the best person can be warped by their situation.  Human beings are almost infinately capable of adapting to new situations, the problem comes about when people adapt to a terrible situation.

This is why you do not put prisons on the frontlines.  You end up with gaurds who feel threatened from the inside as well as the outside, this sort of situation is likely to produce people who feel persecuted and lose touch with reality.

Look at Vientnam, many soldiers came to view not just the VC but all vietnamese as the enemy, as soon as you adapt to that kind of view you let yourself do many things that in any other situation you would never do.

The blame lies with the people who created this situation.  These soldiers and contractors are allready being set up as scape goats and being demonized by the media and the adminstration.  The people to blame for this situation are the bush administration.  Rumsfeld is as culpable as the people who commited these acts, because he helped create the situation that gave rise to them.  The fact that he will not resign shows that he fully expects people to buy the explanation that the people who commited these acts were demented and deranged.

Ask yourself where have you heard those sorts of descriptions of people who have commited acts such as this.  There are reasons and causes behind every human action, and when these actions are widespread you had better believe that the cause is widespread.  It is easy to chalk it up to a few lunatics though.  But that is rarely the case.  The situation creates the lunatics and if you don't rectify the situation the "lunatics" will keep coming.

For a study which backs up some of my asumptions check this very famous study out http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm

[edbro]

the majority of soldiers are people who had few if any options other than military service,

Well, I certainly take offense of your characterization of the military as a profession for those who don't have anywhere else to turn to. I have been in the military for 25 years and most of the people I have worked with are very professional. Most are also very well educated. I have a bachelors degree, a masters degree as well as many years of military schools that would translate into big bucks in the outside world. And it is not just the officer force that is educated. A very large percentage of the enlisted force have college degrees.

We are fortunate that we have an all volunteer force. Most of the soldiers are doing what they want to do. They are highly motivated and professional.

Sure, there will be a few bad apples in all organizations, especially an org as large as the U.S. military. But, the days of most of the soldiers being druggies and/or kids who got into trouble in the civilian world are over. I can't speak with authority about the other branches, but I know it is very selective to get into the Air Force, even as an enlisted member.

[Robert Taylor]

Jim, I don't see that you, or any other American needs to apologise to anyone for this stuff.

"War is Hell" - All humans are animals, particularly in the brutal situation of war.

Mankind is doomed I say...doomed!

We are kidding ourselves that we have become more civilised (and I'm not talking about American's, Iraqi's, Aussie's or any race or country - the whole darn lot of us).

Watch the cow dung that goes on between kids at school, neighbours, office workers, politicians, in fact anyplace you get more than one or two people together.

People can't get on on a small scale, let alone on a global scale, and the more of us there are, the more competition (for resources, men, women, toys, software, food, water, oil, cars - just about anything) there is. People are increasingly under stress.

The media keeps us posted about the increasing amount of bad stuff in the world.

Some people are lucky to have been born in a comfortable country, some are not. The ones who are not want to go to the "better place", the ones who are in the "better place" don't want them there, because the "better place" will no longer be a better place once they get there.

Those who are the haves, feel a certain amount of subconscious guilt about how good life is.

Those who are have nots feel angry about the injustice of being a "have not".

Humans have some deep down self-destructive abnormality. It makes us:

- believe we are the most important animal on this planet
- destroy our only home (don't gimme any nuts about colonies on the moon and mars etc. - if we ever DO get there, we'll just trash them as well), with toxic by-products, detruction of forests and animal habitats
- hate people and things we know nothing about
- keep breeding when it's probably a good idea to slow down a bit

We will still be fighting each other as the toxic atmosphere makes living on the surface of the planet impossible. Then we'll fight each other in the large sewer pipes that will have become our home.

Mankind will never stop fighting, it's in our nature. We are beasts. We are doomed I say...doomed!

[JimH]

Lunch,
How true, how true.  It's the 60's all over again.

King,
Lyrics, please.  Kingston Trio.  "They're rioting in Africa, there's strife in Iran..."

[Omni]

I suppose I'll start a fight here and I don't mean to...

Fret not and allow me to divert the hatred and flames towards me instead.  

Frankly, I think people need to get off their moral high-horses and politically correct bandwagons.  Oh, yes, I know.  It makes us sound so righteous and pure to scream in outrage at what happened to the Iraqi prisoners and offer apologies to the world, but let's put this in perspective, shall we?

[shortened by JimH]

I am not saying that what our military did was in any way justified, necessary, or right.  But for crying out loud, listening to the press and our congressmen and people like Jim and Charlemagne (nothing personal, guys  ), you would think that we instigated the second Holocaust or something.

Give me a break.

And to be clear, no, I am not in Charlemagne cited 1%.  I am not arguing that what our soldiers did was right.  It was not, and those responsible should be held accountable and brought to justice.

But this all this incredibly unmerited shock and horror being spouted out by everyone so they can sound all holy and pure and above reproach is starting to really bother me.

[JimH]

the majority of soldiers are people who had few if any options other than military service,

Well, I certainly take offense of your characterization of the military ...

I agree that the military deserves a great deal of respect for its professionalism under very tough circumstances.  The problem we've just seen isn't just a military problem.

there will be a few bad apples in all organizations

Exactly.  Big business, small business, any organization you can name has had its problems.

What's important, for an individual or for a society, is to have an ethical backbone to draw on when things get confusing.

[Wile E. One]

Another classic experiment which does support to kaiynne's thoughts about situation is the Stanford Prison Experiment led by Dr. Philip Zimbardo in 1971. The experiment had to be cut short because the subjects in the experiment behaved in somewhat similar fashion to the recent events in Iraq.

Check out http://www.prisonexp.org

There is a section which specifically talks about the similarities between the experiment and the recent events.

[Wile E. One]

[shortened by JimH]

Thanks Jim. That section was simply inappropriate.

[GHammer]

the majority of soldiers are people who had few if any options other than military service,

Well, I certainly take offense of your characterization of the military as a profession for those who don't have anywhere else to turn to. I have been in the military for 25 years and most of the people I have worked with are very professional. Most are also very well educated. I have a bachelors degree, a masters degree as well as many years of military schools that would translate into big bucks in the outside world. And it is not just the officer force that is educated. A very large percentage of the enlisted force have college degrees.

We are fortunate that we have an all volunteer force. Most of the soldiers are doing what they want to do. They are highly motivated and professional.

Sure, there will be a few bad apples in all organizations, especially an org as large as the U.S. military. But, the days of most of the soldiers being druggies and/or kids who got into trouble in the civilian world are over. I can't speak with authority about the other branches, but I know it is very selective to get into the Air Force, even as an enlisted member.

I'll agree that I don't like the semiment implied. But I will agree with the idea that young people with no alternative are by and large who joins the military.

Once there, many do stay, they do get an education, they do grow.

But very few (except right after 9-11) join out of some sense of duty.

[JimH]

Check out http://www.prisonexp.org

Wow!  Amazing just to read about.

[TimB]

I'd just like to understand what Rumsfeld thinks taking responsibility actually means.

-=Tim=-

[Mysticeti]

My thoughts on why the prisoner abuse/torture story is a big deal...

American's were given three reasons for the invasion/liberation of Iraq.

1) Immanent threat from weapons of mass destruction.
2) Iraq's connection to Al Queda/9-11.
3) Saddam is a horrible guy.  The Iraqis will be better off w/o him.

On #1, since there are no WMD there obviously isn't any immanent threat.

And #2 turned out to be... lets call it "a stretch".

So that left American's, most of which who want to believe their country is doing the right thing, with reason #3.

The abuse/torture nullifies much of that remaining justification and further cements the possibility that we now have no chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqis.  We're left with possibility that all the lives lost (on both sides) and all the international good will that was squandered (not to mention the billions of dollars) will be for naught.

Maybe someday, many years from now, people will look back on this event and see it as a turning point of some sort.

[bebop]

I was going to mention the Zimbardo experiments, but Wilie beat me to it...but it is so appropriate, even good people can do unspeakable things when under stress, such as being put into a position of power over those considered" enemies" and under "orders" from someone they percieve as being in charge.  this explains, but does not condone the actions of the prison personell.  Those in charge should be taken to task for this, the people they place in charge of the prison had no idea what they were to do, what the real "rules" (ie"Geneva Convention) were - and it sure did nothing to enhance the image of the americans to the rest of the world.  And lunch, you hit it on the head, we are just a small step away from our primal instincts and it's a struggle to keep from backsliding, especially in times of conflict.  But it is something worth striving for - humanity to treat each other with respect and understanding - a goal worth aiming for.  

[Sauzee]

Look, the fact is that we are all humans, and we are all flawed.

What annoys me is that the US government [and a lot of it's citizens] and Tony Blair think and act as if somehow their morals are superior to everyone else's.  It ain't necessarily so.


That's why the US looks so foolish now.  

The US has made a huge mistake in the Middle East.  The world is a less safe place because of American and British aggression.

The only good from this is that the US is unlikely to try any more nation building for another 35 years or so.

[kaiynne]

Well, I certainly take offense of your characterization of the military as a profession for those who don't have anywhere else to turn to. I have been in the military for 25 years and most of the people I have worked with are very professional. Most are also very well educated. I have a bachelors degree, a masters degree as well as many years of military schools that would translate into big bucks in the outside world. And it is not just the officer force that is educated. A very large percentage of the enlisted force have college degrees.

The ROTC programs which aim to train as well as to recruit highly educated people as officers in the military are very different from the way that most people enlist.  The military has an active program to recruit college educated people as officers, it is obvious that they are going to be highly educated, that is part of the criteria.

The ROTC program is very different from regular enlistment programs which offer incentives such as paid college tuition and a comparatively large starting salary.

I am not saying that people in the military are not educated, they are, a paid college education is one of the main incentives to enlist so obviously a lot of military personel are going to have college degrees.

What I am saying is this, poor people are disproportionately represented in the military.  The reason for this is that the military is for many poor people far and away the best option for a future.  

Is it good or bad that many poor people choose the military over some crappy job, I personally think it is bad only in the sense that the military is more voluntary for a rich person who can afford college than it is for a poor person who cannot.

To paraphrase Orwell, all military enlistments are voluntary, some are just more voluntary than others.