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Author Topic: OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?  (Read 6995 times)

DocLotus

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OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« on: August 06, 2004, 10:06:06 pm »

I need some or your expert advice about the following...

I'm looking at a new LCD monitor to replace my 19 inch flat screen Sony CRT.

I have narrowed it down to three...

NEC MultiSync LCD2180UX 21 inch standard screen.

Sony PremierPro 23 SDM-P232W/B 23 inch wide screen.

Samsung 243T 24 inch wide screen.

All are very nice indeed.

Where I need your help is with the Wide screen monitors.

* I assume it will be great for Excel spreadsheets, or having two programs open side-by-side.
* I also assume that images such as JPEG's will look ok but with black borders on the left & right side of the screen.  I assume these borders will be clean with no artifacts.

What I am not so sure about is...

* Will MC maximize correctly on a wide screen monitor ?
* What about standard TV on a wide screen ? I have heard that sometimes the left and right black borders are messy, fuzzy, or have other artifacts showing.  In other words, not as clean as the top and bottom black bars of a letterbox image on a standard screen.
* What about standard screen DVD's on a wide screen monitor ?  Same questions as above regarding the black borders.

And lastly, I have read reports about many of the Sony's having a lot of bad pixels; anyone have any personal experience with this monitor ?

Anyone have any experience with the Samsung 243T ?
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2004, 06:20:16 pm »

bump ;D
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Dragyn

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2004, 08:00:06 pm »

Well when it comes to DVDs, I always get the widescreen version.

Hope this helps.  ;)
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2004, 08:19:49 pm »

Hi Dragyn;

Yes, I have about 300 DVD's and I too always get the wide screen version (when available) but 50 or 60 of them were never made in wide screen so they are standard screen.

I know what a wide screen DVD or TV image looks like on a standard screen but am wondering what problems (if any) I might run into with standard screen DVD's and TV on a wide screen monitor.

I recall reading somewhere that standard screen format DVD and TV will sometimes cause weird artifacts like discoloration & streaking or white lines to show up on the left and right black borders on a wide screen monitor that should be totally black.
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bebop

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2004, 09:37:16 pm »

Doc, currently have the Samsung Syncmaster 919T, and was drooling over the 22" - I noticed that the 22" has some aspect control ( wide, Pan, zoom etc.) perhaps this does the same thing as the picture sizing controls on my Toshiba 36" rear projection (it has thetre wide, full screen and standard aspects to choose from).  
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2004, 10:47:53 pm »

Just looked at the Samsung 243T manual & it seems to have a couple of possible choices for selecting incoming signal; one for Incoming Signal Adjust and the other is for Automatic Selection of Signal.

Think one or the other may do the trick.
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paulr

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2004, 11:40:46 pm »

This may be of interest to you:  http://www.scotsnewsletter.com/59.htm#review1

Scot's review of the Samsung vs. Eizo 21.3-Inch LCDs.  In short he recommends both of them, but the Samsung is roughly $800 cheaper.  I know these monitors are a little smaller than you were looking at, but it might provide some useful info.
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2004, 06:29:26 am »

Thanks Paulr  ;D
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pipsqueak

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2004, 10:20:01 pm »

Doc

i have a 30" widescreen HD-LCD by Dell ans (apart from some washout) its very good:

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/lcd?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

I definately prefer widescreen, which always give you the option of displaying it in 4:3 if you want. However, if you use a regular shaped monitor you need to reduce the image size substantially to get the widescreen image in


pip

DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2004, 07:34:16 am »

When you reduce the image size to 4:3 I assume there are black bars on the left & right of the image ?

Is the break between the picture & the black bars clean with no artifacts  ?  I read somewhere that it is sometimes not as clean a break as a letterbox image on a 4:3 monitor (top & bottom black bars).
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pipsqueak

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2004, 11:17:47 am »

yeah black bars on the edges, ive never noticed any articfacts though...

to be honest the slight strecthing never bothers me and its very rare that i ever toggle out of widescreen mode

DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2004, 12:49:03 pm »

Very interesting. THANKS ;D

I just ordered the Samsung 243T 24 inch Widescreen ;D

Should have it in a few days.
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2004, 06:53:31 pm »

I got my new Samsung 243T widescreen 24 inch LCD monitor and have had a few days to get accustomed to it.

My first impressions...

Let me say one thing before I start...WOW!!

Every LCD monitor that I had looked at before turned me off because none were as bright as my beloved Sony 19 inch CRT monitor.

The Samsung 243t...

* Screen brightness... WOW!!! very bright, more so then my Sony 19 inch CRT.

* Fonts... very bright and VERY sharp; crystal clear to be exact.  No compromise here.

*  Viewing angle... much better then I imagined for an LCD, can view it from all normal angles.  Yes, there is some fall-off at very wide angles but even here it is much less then I thought there would be.

* Swiveling the monitor on the base stand... Forward, Back, Tilt way back, Raise the whole monitor up and down, Rotate 90 degrees for portrait mode; it does it all thanks to the new detachable VESA compliant universal base.  What a wonderful design.

*  Bad pixels... At first I could find none, but after a couple of days of looking at different colored screens I finally found one, a red one that was turned on, directly under the Win XP Start button so it is not an issue at all as it is completely invisible with Windows running.

*  Does it handle TV correctly?  You bet!  Using MC's Aspect Ratio called "Crop" (not "Crop Edges") all TV is viewed full screen and full width without any stretching or distortion at all.  Crop automatically blows up standard 4:3 aspect ratio so there are no black borders on the sides and it removes the top and bottom black borders on letterbox or HDTV images.

* Response time... this is where most LCD monitors fall down with fast moving objects such as games.  The Samsung does pretty well here. In fact, PC Game web site tested it and declared this monitor to be the perfect game monitor.  They said you have not really played a game until you do it on a large, widescreen monitor.  One of the fastest LCD monitors available is the NEC 2180UX 21 inch (4:3 aspect ratio), it has a response time of just 20 milliseconds.  The Samsung 24 inch widescreen is only 25 milliseconds, pretty impressive for a 24 inch widescreen with 1200 x 1920 pixels.

In addition to the widescreen, what really impressed me right out of the box is the brightness and crystal clear, tack sharp image.  I did not know that LCD's have gotten this good.  I have heard that in the last year or so there have been big improvements in LCD monitors.

I am getting fantastic image quality using only analog (ATI A-I-W 9600 Pro video card).  I have heard that it is even better when connected digital (video card has to have digital output, not all do).

I was looking at three different big-screen monitors... NEC 2180UX 21.3 inch, standard aspect ratio, Sony PremierPro 23 inch windscreen, and the Samsung 243t 24 inch widescreen.  All are great monitors.

* Although the NEC is a wonderful monitor, it is not wide screen and I really wanted that.

* The Sony has been out for over a year and is starting to show its age a little (only 40 milliseconds response time and only 350:1 contrast ratio).  Also, the Sony seems to be having a quality control problem with a lot of bad pixels.  Some users have reported as many as 15 bad pixels on the Sony.

* The Samsung is brand new with the latest technology (25 milliseconds response time, 500:1 contrast ratio) and that fantastic universal base).

I read a report where a guy found the Sony and the Samsung in a store, side-by-side.  He played with the controls for over an hour on both monitors.  He bought the Samsung as no matter how hard he tried he could not make the Sony look as bright as the Samsung.

As I write this (in Word) I am using the monitor swiveled 90 degrees for portrait mode.  I can see 1 and ½ full pages; how simply wonderful.
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JimH

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2004, 07:00:00 pm »

Doc,
Great review.  I'm jealous.  Do you have a link to a picture and price?  It's got to be worth about 40 Yugo's.

Thanks,

Jim
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2004, 07:14:38 pm »

$2,300.00 (US) to be exact.

I got it through Amazon, it was shipped from Beech Audio in California.

Check this out...

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=243t&page=1

The 243t is so new that it is not yet listed on Samsung's own site.

It is available in black or silver.  I got the black one.
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2004, 12:51:27 pm »

Something else I find interesting is the way the Samsungs stand is designed.  I can store my keyboard under the monitor.  There is so much room under the monitor that I can also store my remote control in the little well between the stands opening at the same time.

Never in all the years that I have been using PC's has there been room under the monitor to do this.

It seems that sometimes manufactures are really thinking about usability and Samsung has done their homework on this one very well indeed.

I LOVE THIS MONITOR ;D ;D ;D
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2004, 01:05:33 pm »

Now that I have acquired the fantastic Samsung 243t 24 inch Widescreen Monitor (16:10 aspect ratio) I see room for improvements to MC's TV Configuration \ Display \ Aspect Ratio \ Crop settings...

I have everything set up for widescreen as much as possible.

When I discovered the TV Configuration \ Display \ Aspect Ratio \ Crop (not Crop Edges) setting I was in hog heaven as now all of my TV channels are now presented in widescreen without any stretching or distortion of the image.

What this means is...

* Standard 4:3 aspect ratio images... are zoomed in until the left and right black bars are off the screen.  This also means the image will have the very top and very bottom cut off; a small price to pay for getting rid of the black borders.  It also makes for a much larger image on a widescreen monitor as virtually the entire screen is used for the image.  Also, there is no stretching or distortion of the image as I have sometimes seen with other methods.  This is a very good compromise.

* Widescreen... Here things are a little stickier as there is no real standard for so-called widescreen; is it 16:9, 11:9, 2.35:1 or what ?  The TV Configuration \ Display \ Aspect Ratio \ Crop seems to work the same way as it does for any aspect ratio; it simply zooms in on the image until the black bars on the left and right of the image are off the screen.  This works some of the time for any image that is the same ratio as the monitor but it will often leave thin black bars on the top and bottom of the screen when the TV image aspect ratio is not exactly the same as the monitor.

EXAMPLE: All widescreen computer monitors are 16:10 ratio whereas widescreen TV images are usually 16:9.  Why the monitor manufactures chose the 16:10 ratio is beyond me but they must have had a pretty good reason as they all do it.

My Suggestion for this problem...

Change the Aspect Ratio Crop feature so it will expand the left and right part of the image far enough off of the screen until the black bars at the top and bottom are gone.  In other words, make the top and bottom black bars for wide aspect ratio TV images the determineing factor.  This also means the image will have a very small portion of the left and right sides of the image cut off; a small price to pay for getting rid of the top and bottom black borders.  

The bottom line is this... Crop should get rid of ALL black borders regardless of the aspect ratio of the original image.
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DocLotus

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Re:OT: Widescreen or Standard monitor?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2004, 02:48:23 pm »

The Samsung 243t Widescreen, after a week or two of getting some real world use...

Now that I've had a couple of weeks to get used to the Samsung Widescreen, I have noticed some real world differences between LCD's and CRT's.  Some things that I used to take for granted are no longer an issue or are vastly improved over CRT monitors; such as...

* My fears about switching to a widescreen for my computer monitor were totally unfounded...

    - MC and all other software expands nicely to fit the new format with a LOT more room for everything.

    - My concerns about TV on a widescreen monitor was a non-issue; the black borders I was concerned about on the sides of a standard 4:3 TV image are very clean with no artifacts.

    - The black borders on the sides of a standard 4:3 TV image can be totally removed with MC TV's Aspect - 'Crop' command (not the Crop edges option).  It does not stretch the image as ATI's Aspect controls do (causing distortion of the image), but rather it 'zooms' the image so the side borders go off the screen.  This does make some of the top and bottom of the image go off the screen but is a very good compromise until real widescreen comes to all households in a year or two.

    - One thing that did came as a surprise to me was that letterbox images do not automatically fill the screen but have black borders all around... top, bottom, left and right.  I had just assumed that letterbox TV images would automatically fill the screen; but after seeing a letterbox image on my widescreen monitor I saw what was happening.  The TV station was sending out a standard 4:3 aspect ratio TV signal which included a letterbox movie within it so it was on the screen as a 4;3 image.  MC's TV's Aspect - 'Crop' command did the trick and expanded it to full screen thereby filling the whole screen with a non-distorted widescreen image.

    - Even with MC's TV's Aspect - 'Crop' command, some real widescreen images that TV stations transmit will still leave a very thin black border along the top and bottom of the screen; that is because most letterbox images are 16:9 aspect but for some reason all widescreen computer monitors are 16:10 aspect ratio hence the thin black borders left over.  This is something that MC needs to address.

* Much faster turn on after a Win XP standby start up.

* The screen does not come on faint at boot up (like CRT's) but seems to come on at normal color; in other words there is no 'warm up' time required.

* The image does not shift in size as the screen warms up like a CRT does.

* There is no need for 'tweaking' the screen size and position settings as it is done automatically by use of the 'Auto' button which works extremely well indeed.

* A full screen image with a thin line running all the way around it (a border) will be precisely positioned and well centered on the screen with the thin border just inside the screen bezel; it will be straight and precise.  No matter how hard I tried, I could never achieve that for very long on any CRT monitor. On a CRT, even when I could precisely position such an image on the screen some of the thin border would always bow out of the image and hide behind the bezel as the line was not really true and straight due to the CRT gun scanning in an arc and the different thickness of the glass tube surface.

* As there is no more screen behind the bezel (like CRT's) the screen size is precise and very well known so the video card only has to provide the exact number of pixels that the screen needs.  So, when you set up the screen size in Windows to 1200x1920 the video card produces that exact amount of pixels and the LCD reads that exact size (1200x1920).  This is why the 'Auto' feature works so well.

* There is absolutely no pincushion, barrel, trapezoid, non-linearity, or any other kind of distortion that needs to be adjusted. This is because there is no 'gun' (as in a CRT) scanning in an arc that needs to be controlled and adjusted.  Furthermore, these controls are not needed and are not present which greatly simplifies the setting up of a LCD monitor.

* Brightness... I was very pleasantly surprised in this area as I had always thought that LCD's were dimmer then a bright CRT.  A lot of things have been improved in LCD design in the last year or so.  This LCD is actually much brighter, and with better contrast then any CRT that I have used.

* The screen does not 'wash out' as brightness and/or contrast are turned up as most CRT's do.  There seems to be much better control over the contrast then on a CRT.

* Contrast ration is very good (500:1).

* Due to the high contrast ratio, blacks are really black; in fact when the screen is turned off it appears to be almost totally black and not the dark grey of most CRT's.  I think this may be because there is no shadow mask screen or thick glass for the light to travel through and become weakened.  There is only a thin black plastic screen between the LCD's and you.

* Much thinner bezel surrounding the screen as there is no screen area behind the bezel as there is in all CRT's monitors.

* The only negative side to LCD's has to do with the backlighting...

     - CRT's are notorious for having 'spotty' brightness especially on a full screen of a bright color such as white; this is due to many reasons including the gun scanning in an arc, the electron beam striking the shadow mask at more of an angle near the edges, and the different thickness of the surface of the glass CRT tube all leading to light fall off near the corners and edges.

     - I thought that would be a thing of the past with a LCD as there is no electron gun, no shadow mask, and no scanning in an arc; but there are back lights and no matter how hard the manufacturers have tried there will always be some slightly lighter and darker areas of the screen as current back light technology simply is not as uniform as one would hope for.  What you see on an LCD monitor is a slight 'shimmering' of light as you move your heard at different angles to the screen.  Some of this is due to backlighting fall off over the screen surface.

      - There is hope for the future in a new type of backlighting using not fluorescent as the light source, but an array of LED's (Light Emitting Diodes).  LED backlighting on an LCD monitor may be about a year away but the test that I have seen looks very promising so far.  Such a monitor is brighter, has better contrast, and much more saturated colors, the overall effect is very positive.  The nice thing about LED backlighting is that current assemble lines can use it on new LCD monitors at very little additional manufacturing assembly cost (the actual LED backlighting may be more expensive).

* All in all, most of my fears about LCD's have been put to rest; needless to say, I'm one happy camper. ;D
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