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Author Topic: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?  (Read 3961 times)

Ce.D

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AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« on: October 15, 2002, 12:25:13 pm »

Hey guys!

I was wondering:
1. does MJ support AC-3 5.1 stream playback (like for example when playing a DVD) ?
2. is there any way to create a AC-3 5.1 stream (with controllable reverb/delay) from a stereo source (like for example when playing a CD) ? Is there a DSP plug-in out in the wild for this (didn't find anything in the MJ plug-in page) ?

NB: I'm using a AC-3/S-PDIF compliant optical converter which is said by the manufacturer to be able to handle transparently AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 stream (Midiman Sonica). Not that I understand how this is handled by the OS... Do(es) Windows sound API(s) allow this without using hardware-specific application (question just out of curiosity) ?

Thanx for your answers !
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jgourd

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2002, 02:01:02 pm »

I am fairly certain that MJ only works in stereo. If you had an AC-3 or DTS encoded WAV file ( http://www.lamoateffe.com/five_one_demo.asp ) the OS is supposed to allow "non wave data" to be passed directly to the SPDIF out jack. However, I have not seen an option in MJ to enable this.

At some point MJ is going to support ASIO drivers and all the multi-channel goodies that can go along with it. OGG has, from the beginning, been able to handle more than two channels. At some point, I am sure that a nice German kid with too much time on his hands will write an AC-3 to OGG 5.1 transcoder. Then we will be cooking with gas.
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Groomlake

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2002, 07:08:58 pm »

If you had a 5.1 channel Ogg would MJ play it now?
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2002, 11:06:02 pm »

Hy again!

Thanx to "jgourd", I just made a surprisingly nice discovery: I downloaded the DTS encoded WAV file from http://www.lamoateffe.com/samples/RedHouseDTS.wav and tried to play it with MJ... and I just got a nice 5.1 DTS stream output to my AC-3 amplifier through my Sonica (BTW, forgot to thank Brad for his advice  ;) ). Gee, MJ is really awesome!

NB: As one would expect, trying to play this file through a normal stereo soundcard just gets you with a nice white noise out of your speakers...

I didn't investigate the "why and how" yet, but maybe my "playback" settings might have something to do with the result: I explicitely told MJ to output the signal directly to my Sonica (Settings -> Options -> Playback; Output: Wave Out; Device: M-Audio Sonica, and NOT the recommended Wave mapper). on the other hand, I told Windows that I was using a 5.1 speakers set (Control Panel -> Sounds & Audio -> Speaker settings -> Advanced; though I doubt this last setting has anything to do with the issue)... well, just guesses so far... maybe it works even with the default settings.

Now, this raises the next question: is there any Fraunhofer-based algorithm (MP3-like) that handle compression for more-than-2-channel data ? Lossless compression is fine... but with 5.1 data, the size of the files tends to get huge (the DTS sample I downloaded is 72MB for 7 minutes audio) !

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to rip DVD 5.1 sountracks (like for concert DVDs) !?!  :D MJ would then blaze the thunder out of the sky !

Well, just dreaming...
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NoCodeUK

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2002, 11:51:09 pm »

I f it doesn't make you feel too dirty the new WMA professional format can compress a 5.1 file.  don't know about sizes tho. check the wmp9 page...

Adam
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jgourd

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2002, 01:03:34 am »

Quote
Hy again!

Thanx to "jgourd", I just made a surprisingly nice discovery: I downloaded the DTS encoded WAV file from http://www.lamoateffe.com/samples/RedHouseDTS.wav and tried to play it with MJ... and I just got a nice 5.1 DTS stream output to my AC-3 amplifier through my Sonica (BTW, forgot to thank Brad for his advice  ;) ). Gee, MJ is really awesome!


So... What did you think of the discrete 5.1 recording?
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2002, 01:19:04 am »

To Adam: I don't want to get any passionate answer about it, but I (personally) won't use WMA anylonger, for various reasons (see the recent "WMA or MP3" thread). Thanx all the same for the advice  ;)

To "jgourd": I'm not sure I understood you right (my english is not that good)... but if you are talking about the quality of the recording using 5 mics at well chosen locations, I had no time yet to listen to it carefully (I just wanted to know so far if it  worked *technically*). On the other side, I don't know if I am entitled to give an opinion about this, since I'm far for being an audio/studio technician with proper listening training (though I definitely enjoy listening to a properly mixed 5.1 source). I'll give it a go tonight and give you my *impressions*.

As for OGG: I'm not familiar with the format... but it just occured to me that it IS a Fraunhofer-based-like algorithm... or am I wrong ?
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2002, 02:55:37 am »

As for what I think of the "discrete" recording (in answer to jgourd)... and those are just impressions (not trying to speak of the recording quality)... I might as well have it all wrong!

For this live performance (http://www.lamoateffe.com/samples/RedHouseDTS.wav), 5.1 technology just make you feel you 're in the middle of the crowd, where people are chatting/clapping their hands/whistling around you while the band is performing in the same time in front of you. The impressions of spatial "localization" is just great! You're there!

If you cut the front/center speakers, you hear exactly what you would if you were standing at the back of the performance hall, hearing the music in the "far" and people right next to you. Keeping just the front/center speakers, on the other hand, just gets you with a feeling pretty close to what you would have listening to a standard stereo live CD (my front/center speakers are too close one to the others to allow good center/side localization... no room!).

Now, this jazzy piece of work isn't exactly the type of music (to my impression) where the 5.1 technology can add dramatic effects on the intrumental part (like hearing some synthesizer effects on the side/rear while other instruments can be heard in other places). But this is more post-mixing work than discrete recording (if I understood the word right). I can't imagine what electronic music could achieve trough 5.1 technology!

Now that 5.1 technology becomes more and more accessible (even now through MJ) and that recording techniques allows to take full advantage of it, sound technicians will just start tearing their hair out their head to produce high-quality multi-channel recording, since it is much more work... and much more difficult to achieve with a good quality!

Those were just my impression. Hope I wouldn't heart the feeling of the guys who achieved the recording I just talked about.

;)
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jgourd

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2002, 04:51:52 am »

I'll have to post one of my other 5.1 mixes where I get the guitars and vocals flying all around the room ;)
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2002, 05:25:17 am »

Thought it might be you!  ;D Just didn't bother to check! :D

I guess that makes two of us expecting a good multi-channel compression algorithm along with the appropriate "input" plug-in!

Ah, and by the way, I'd love to hear that nice "flying-around" mix of yours ;)
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2002, 04:28:24 am »

Well, went through reading a lot of pages on the subject since my first post... and I think it could be useful to post some of my discoveries... and also hope one of the MJ's gurus might come cross this one and share his feelings about the subject. So here it is:

Playing 5.1 sound of course requires a multi-channel capable sound card:
1. either through discrete speakers output (one per channel) - solution that requires the decoding of the sound stream
2. or through SPDIF to an external decoder - solution which requires a AC3- or DTS-compliant sound stream (unless you have some very fancy decoder, with very fancy sound format support).

Now, if you have a solution 1. compliant sound card, any multi-channel format (OGG, AC3, DTS (native or WAV encoded), etc...) would be fine... provided you have the appropriate decoder software (plug-in). MJ currently lacks those...
If you have a solution 2. compliant sound card, then you need to save your music in AC3 or DTS (native or WAV encoded) and have the appropriate software (plug-in) to play the sound stream directly to the SPDIF connector (passthru mode, somehow). MJ currently lacks this too, except for WAV encoded files...

Now comes the question of storage place: OGG (multi-channel), AC3 and DTS sound streams share the advantage of being highly compressed compared to AC3/DTS WAV encoded streams (by a ratio commonly close to 1 <-> 5). When speaking of about 10-15 MB per minute (600-900MB per hour), one may easily understand that WAV-encoded sound streams are not the best options... though they are what you find the most commonly on the internet for now and are the only solution available so far on MJ to obtain 5.1 sound through SPDIF and an external decoder.

Now, when speaking of native AC3 or DTS sound streams comes the question of legal rights and how to obtain such encoded streams: AC3 is a proprietary format owned by Dolby Labs, who - it seems - requires a "licensing" fee for any application/software plug-in able to encode/decode AC3 sound stream. I'm not sure about DTS, but I think the problem is the same.
Plainly speaking, it means one has to PAY to be able to decode/encode AC3 or DTS... unless you use Linux (cf. liba52, still freely distributed though not very legal) or some pirate software.
The discussion comes pretty close to the DVD ripping/burning subject, on which two excellent sources exist: http://www.digital-digest.com and http://www.doom9.org
Could MJ provide a AC3/DTS decoding plug-in in the frame of the "MJ Plus" licensing fee (would that cover Dolby Labs fees) ? If not, it means we would have to pay to obtain a decoding plug-in, and then, how much ?... provided of course MJ (or any other third party developping plug-ins) is willing to go through the harness of contracting with Dolby Labs.

Now, provided you have an encoded AC3/DTS sound stream (as a separate file, on a DVD or encapsulated in a VOB file... no matter how you obtained it) and you just want to pass this stream through to the SPDIF connector, NO encoding/decoding would take place. Wouldn't this free any "passthru" plug-ins from the Dolby Labs licensing fees ? (I read something like this on the Internet, but it didn't look very official) If yes, couldn't MJ easily (contractually speaking) provide a AC3/DTS playback plug-in ?

OK. Why go through all this ? Well, the answer is quite simple: have your eve listened to a properly mixed 5.1 sound stream ? IT'S TERRIFIC! It would be great to have other-than-WAV-encoded solutions to build a 5.1 music library.

Wow... that was a long draw! I apologize for the length of this message. I hope I also understood right what I read through various web pages and didn't make a fool of myself (if so, please DO correct me)!

Hope we're heading towards 5.1  :)
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Groomlake

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2002, 11:40:53 am »

Great post Ce.D! I've been looking into this for quite awhile and reached some of the same conclusions but you also presented some other facts I hadn't found out. I'm hoping MJ pursues multi-channel audio, preferabbly using ogg as the format. That shouldn't require any additional licenscing right?? It's open source, leave it to others to find a way of bringing multichannel sources to the ogg format, I just want to listen to it! Anyway, great post. Hopefully there is enough interest in multi-channel audio for MJ to pursue.
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jgourd

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2002, 11:49:59 am »

Playing back ogg 5.1 would require no licenses, but transcoding from AC-3 or DTS would.
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2002, 12:10:32 pm »

Thanx for you appreciation!

Regarding OGG, I kind of disagree: there would be NO way to use external decoders such as our home-cinema amplifiers.

Personally, I'm not looking forward to have a big tower-PC in my living room, with a nice multi-speaker output soundcard and a bunch of cables to my amplifier... (I'm currently using my laptop along with Midiman's Sonica and Wireless LAN).

Even more, provided you DO use a home-theater amplifier, this would be less than optimal. Your soundcard would actually apply a D/A conversion to output the speakers' signals, which would in turn go through a A/D conversion in your amplifier (since most home-theater amplifier convert analog input to digital stream in order to do Digital Signal Processing; unless you have a VERY expensive discrete 5.1 analog amplifier), which would finally be D/A converted back to the speakers... And one knows that such conversions have a VERY bad impact on sound quality, especially the A/D one (high-quality A/D converter are VERY expensive). Just try it for yourself: hook a CD player to your digital amplifier both numerically (using SPDIF optical or coaxial connector) and analogically... With my DENON DCD-1460 CD player and my Yamaha RX-V595 amplifier, the difference is really noticeable: the digital connection gets you cleaner sound, with better definition of high and low frequencies. And this is also true for MJ's MP3-encoded music: since I received my SPDIF adapter, there is NO way I will use my soundcard's analog output again! But then, I also discovered that I was good to re-encode half of my MP3 with higher quality settings  :( ...

So, I would rather pay a little money to have an AC3/DTS compliant plug-in than use an encoding format that would prevent me to go "digitally" all the way through to my amplifier.

;)
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jgourd

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2002, 12:23:57 pm »

I guess it depends on what you call expensive. I have a nice little $800 Denon with discreat analog inputs that I use for DVD-Audio listening. I thought the receiver was a steal at that price.
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2002, 12:37:53 pm »

I would say that $800 for an amplifier starts to be a decent price.

But did you have the opportunity to compare the sound quality through digital vs. analog input on the same sound source ? Maybe your amplifier is "smart" enough to have a direct analog-inputs to analog-speakers path when not applying any DSP effects (thus bypassing the useless A/D - D/A conversion). My $500 one isn't... and its A/D converter really s...

And then, one would rely on the soundcard to accomplish a good D/A conversion. OK, D/A conversion is no way as problematic as A/D conversion. I personally trust my $500 amplifier to have a better D/A stage than many soundcards... unless you pay them as much as the amplifier! But maybe I'm wrong...

:-/

But maybe one that is working in the recording industry and knows how expensive hardware is - just because of proprietary formats and licensing fees - is fed up using this formats  ;D (joking)

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jgourd

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2002, 12:42:22 pm »

I do not use DSP effects. I am a sound engineer. For me "Straight Wire With Gain" is like a mantra. I have never heard any DSP effect in a consumer receiver that was any good.

Dolby Pro Logic II however is nice. My Denon's discreet inputs, when selected, bypass all the digital crap and go straight into the volume control and out to the poweramps.
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2002, 12:52:49 pm »

Do agree with you! I actually don't use the DSP effects from my amplifier. As the A/D converter, they s...

Besides, I trust YOU guys doing your job correctly to listen to any sound source as neutrally as possible: no equalizer, no DSP, no other fancies. :)

The question here is more: since you have a numerical source, why use a format (OGG) that would require you to decode/demultiplex/D/A-convert it at the computer level rather than a more standard format (AC3/DTS) that would allow you to decode/demultiplex/D/A-convert it in more appropriate hardware.
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jgourd

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2002, 12:56:35 pm »

Personally, I would prefer to simply play AC-3 and DTS directly in MJ and be done with it. Sometimes it would be nice to post multi-channel ogg files as samples on my web site.
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Ce.D

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Re: AC-3 Dolby/DTS 5.1 support ?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2002, 01:01:57 pm »

Yeah, so everybody's happy!  :)

I hope these considerations might help MJ-deciders (or third-party developers)  to better understand users' issues and make us all happy!

Time for me to go to bed... Glad exchanged opinions with you.
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