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Author Topic: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!  (Read 5000 times)

JaredH

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Check this out.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004409.php

This whole ordeal is just getting a bit out of hand. From my point of view, I don't see how any foward thinking congressman would be able to look at this explanation, even when dressed up in it legal wording, and see this as anything more than a scheme to exert ultimate control over all forms of media.

In defense of their argument, if we werent able to rip, then there wouldnt be P2P problems. If we were'nt able to copy, then people wouldn't have bootlegs. But to me they are getting into the "one bad apple spoils the bunch" idea. I'm sorry, but that just seems like impractical idealism. It's good to be idealists, but you gotta look at reality as well.

They are whittling this issue down to the point that the only media option we will have is to either buy a CD, or buy the digital. However, should you want to listen to them in your stereo as well as your portable, be ready to fork out double for both formats.

Unfortunately, there is a reality behind all of this. They could tighten things down so strict that you would have to buy a format for every device and people would still pay for it. Those few of us who really get heated about these things will continue to fume, but most people don't even know these issues even exist, they remain blissfully ignorant. The few of us who actually take the effort to contact our representatives about these issues are exactly that, few.

That is where the RIAA and their cohorts get their power, from the blissfully ignorant, silent consumers who have no knowledge of the issues.

So what do we do? Continue to fume and seethe in self-resignation about the issues? I for one am all about legal and fair use of media. There isn't a single song on my PC of which I do not own the CD. Nor do I share any of them across P2P or any other forms of file transfer. Here I thought I was keeping things legal.

But it just seems to me like these guys are slowly inching across that line, one toe at a time, and taking away our rights to listen to the music we have legally bought (licensed, technically speaking).
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LonWar

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2006, 12:16:11 pm »

Check this out.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004409.php

This whole ordeal is just getting a bit out of hand. From my point of view, I don't see how any foward thinking congressman would be able to look at this explanation, even when dressed up in it legal wording, and see this as anything more than a scheme to exert ultimate control over all forms of media.

In defense of their argument, if we werent able to rip, then there wouldnt be P2P problems. If we were'nt able to copy, then people wouldn't have bootlegs. But to me they are getting into the "one bad apple spoils the bunch" idea. I'm sorry, but that just seems like impractical idealism. It's good to be idealists, but you gotta look at reality as well.

They are whittling this issue down to the point that the only media option we will have is to either buy a CD, or buy the digital. However, should you want to listen to them in your stereo as well as your portable, be ready to fork out double for both formats.

Unfortunately, there is a reality behind all of this. They could tighten things down so strict that you would have to buy a format for every device and people would still pay for it. Those few of us who really get heated about these things will continue to fume, but most people don't even know these issues even exist, they remain blissfully ignorant. The few of us who actually take the effort to contact our representatives about these issues are exactly that, few.

That is where the RIAA and their cohorts get their power, from the blissfully ignorant, silent consumers who have no knowledge of the issues.

So what do we do? Continue to fume and seethe in self-resignation about the issues? I for one am all about legal and fair use of media. There isn't a single song on my PC of which I do not own the CD. Nor do I share any of them across P2P or any other forms of file transfer. Here I thought I was keeping things legal.

But it just seems to me like these guys are slowly inching across that line, one toe at a time, and taking away our rights to listen to the music we have legally bought (licensed, technically speaking).


It'd be funny to see them try to go after the harware players... Apple, Creative etc... There is no way that they could enforce that.... They can't even  stop people from downloading.... Not all countries make it illegal to download music.... Canada for instance, it is still LEGAL to do so. There are some other countries as well.
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glynor

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2006, 02:44:31 pm »

Its not about that, unfortunately.

They're claiming that it isn't fair use to create backups as a strategic move.  You may not be aware of this but there is a provision in the DMCA that requires a review of the law by the Copyright Office (<sarcasm>because they're not biased at all</sarcasm>) once every three years for the following purpose:

Quote
The purpose of this proceeding is to determine whether there are particular classes of works as to which users are, or are likely to be, adversely affected in their ability to make non-infringing uses due to the prohibition on circumvention of access controls.

Civillians (like you and I) are able to submit requests for exemptions from any provision of the law to enable us to make non-infringing use in spite of the provisions of the law.

The biggest provision of the law that comes under constant fire is, of course, the anti-circumvention provision.  There is well established caselaw that shows that it is a non-infringing use to make personal backup copies of copyrighted materials.  For example, you are allowed to make a photocopy of a book for personal, non-commercial use.  You are allowed to make software backup copies, backups of VHS tapes you bought, and dubs of cassette tapes.  There is also caselaw protecting our rights to make  analog recordings off of the radio for private, non-commercial use.

The goal of the recent RIAA statements (and in fact their context) was in reply to requests for exemptions from the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA in order for people to make backup copies of DRM-protected CD discs (such as the Sony discs that recently caused all the scandal), DVD movies, and other similar products.  While the goal of backing up these types of media has always been considered fair use, the DMCA's anti-circumvention provision prevents you from breaking the DRM to create these copies.  In order to avoid the copyright office granting these exceptions, the RIAA/MPAA is now trying to claim that backup copies are not protected by fair use statute.

This is pretty shaky legally.  In fact, they're even trying to revise the past a bit.  During the infamous Grokster case, the RIAA lawyer said in a statement to the Supreme Court of the United States:

Quote
"The record companies, my clients, have said, for some time now, and it's been on their website for some time now, that it's perfectly lawful to take a CD that you've purchased, upload it onto your computer, put it onto your iPod."

The RIAA is now claiming:

Quote
Nor does the fact that permission to make a copy in particular circumstances is often or even "routinely" granted, see C6 at 8, necessarily establish that the copying is a fair use when the copyright owner withholds that authorization. In this regard, the statement attributed to counsel for copyright holders in the Grokster case, is simply a statement about authorization, not about fair use.

So, they're trying to say that it was only legal because they authorized us to do so.  They can, they claim, revoke this authorization at their whim.  The real big goal of this is a power play over the future of media distribution.  The RIAA has dreams of reselling the same content to you over and over.  If you want to play your media on your iPod, they'll sell you an iPod version.  On your car's "digital" radio?  They'll sell you a car-stereo version.  On your computer?  They'll sell you a computer version.  And on and on.  It's about monetizing format shifting, and the fight isn't over current CDs.  Its about the music formats of the future which will be completely digital and, in the RIAA's dream world, completely locked down.

If you can get an exemption to break the DRM for backup and format-shifting purposes, it will make these second and third sales very difficult for the RIAA to get.  You can see this purpose clearly in the following excerpt from their statement:

Quote
Even if CDs do become damaged, replacements are readily available at affordable prices. Similar to the motion picture industry, the recording industry has faced, in online piracy, a direct attack on its ability to enjoy its copyrights.

The problem with that logic is that it won't work.  The DRM won't stop piracy.  They know that.  They aren't even trying to stop piracy with it (obviously since the Sony DRM can be "circumvented" with an advanced underground cracker tool known as a Macintosh).  They are trying to create a second-third-and-fourth sale market for their products.  Since they are putting out so much utter crap they now need to sell their few gems more than once to still turn the profit margins their shareholders have come to expect.
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BartMan01

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2006, 04:53:02 pm »

They are whittling this issue down to the point that the only media option we will have is to either buy a CD, or buy the digital. However, should you want to listen to them in your stereo as well as your portable, be ready to fork out double for both formats.

Sorry, but IMHO they are whittling this down to the point that the only media option I will CHOOSE is to do without their content.  They will eventually legislate themselves out of existence as more and more artists choose to skip the traditional recording industry and take one of the many new paths opening up to them.

Never forget that as consumers we have a choice to buy what they are peddling.
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GHammer

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2006, 05:49:28 pm »

Never forget that as consumers we have a choice to buy what they are peddling.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Can you point me to a recent boycott that had any effect?
Any idea of how you're going to get my sister to give a fig about DRM/DCMA/RIAA?
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BartMan01

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2006, 07:19:40 pm »

Can you point me to a recent boycott that had any effect?
Any idea of how you're going to get my sister to give a fig about DRM/DCMA/RIAA?

I didn't suggest a boycott, and frankly I don't give a rat's behind about what the rest of the world (or your sister) does with their entertainment dollar.  *I* don't have to buy it, and neither do you.  I'll spend my entertainment money on product that I can use how I want and when I want.
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jgreen

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2006, 08:21:48 pm »

I read somewhere that the record companies promised to stop bribing radio stations to play their songs and start suing them for it.
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JaredH

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2006, 11:22:13 pm »


Can you point me to a recent boycott that had any effect?
Any idea of how you're going to get my sister to give a fig about DRM/DCMA/RIAA?


That's exactly the issue I was getting at towards the end of my post. Joe Schmoe's are the ones that are going to allow the proliferation of this "Pays for Sure" media the RIAA is pushing. There aren't enough of us who care, much less know about DRM/DCMA/RIAA, to stop this kind of thing. The blissfully ignorant are the ones that will push these types of legislation through, simply by being silent.
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hit_ny

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2006, 11:23:30 pm »

I'm waiting to see this tested in court.
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glynor

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2006, 12:04:52 am »

The blissfully ignorant are the ones that will push these types of legislation through, simply by being silent.

To quote one of those RIAA artists...

The blind have been blessed by security.

It's a common theme nowadays really.  *sigh*
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GHammer

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2006, 05:34:05 am »

I didn't suggest a boycott, and frankly I don't give a rat's behind about what the rest of the world (or your sister) does with their entertainment dollar. *I* don't have to buy it, and neither do you. I'll spend my entertainment money on product that I can use how I want and when I want.

Don't give a fig about the proper usage of "we" either from the sound of it.

Yes, yes, I'm sure you'll huff and puff and the whole entertainment industry will fall down.
Like I haven't heard of the power of the mighty consumer for years now regarding this issue.

Tell you what, next time you're out quail hunting with the V.P., after ducking, bring this up with him. Your Senator friends too. What's that? You say you don't have those connections? Well then Bunky, you're gonna take what they serve you.
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hit_ny

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2006, 05:57:33 am »

The article referenced says..

...the RIAA and other copyright industry associations submitted a filing..

anyone familar with the workflow here ?

..how long does it take for a filing to actually become law ?
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Alex B

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2006, 06:16:06 am »

IMHO, this is ridiculous.

I buy only audio CDs that conform the Red Book Audio standard. The purpose of an Audio CD disc is to deliver the included audio content so that the user can listen to it.

An audio CD is a plastic disc that contains a layer that contains small bumps that contain a binary code like 1101110001110010 etc, which represents an audio signal. For using the code I have optical reader systems that use various computer and traditional analog audio technology for transforming the audio signal from the binary format to the signal that comes out from my air moving devices like speakers or headphones. All systems I use conform the Red Book Standard because they can do that. All systems use a buffer memory for allowing the digital code to be processed. Some of the systems have very small buffers (like the device called CD Player). Some of the systems have buffers that can delay entire CD collections and have adjustments for the buffering (like the devices called PC and Portable Digital Player).

In my opinion no one has a right to decide what I can do or not do with the binary code I have extracted from the Audio CDs. It will always be extracted and transformed even when the CDs are listened with the most basic CD player. It does not make any difference if my devices have buffers.

When I use the CDs with my various listening equipment I am not violating the copyrights. I am not illegally distributing the content.

I will never buy DRM protected music and I will stop buying music if the sellers get legal rights to control what devices I can use.
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lOth

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2006, 06:20:18 am »

I just can't understand why the RIAA seems to do its best to lose all credibility by making such weak, almost absurd, arguments. Because they realize that's what they're doing... right?
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glynor

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2006, 12:03:57 pm »

The article referenced says..

...the RIAA and other copyright industry associations submitted a filing..

anyone familar with the workflow here ?

..how long does it take for a filing to actually become law ?

They're not trying to make it into a law (which by the way are supposed to be written by legislators not by industry trade groups, not that that little technical detail hasn't stopped them before).  The filing was to the US Copyright Office in response to requests for exemptions from the DMCA.  Basically, it went like this:

(1) The DMCA prevents you from breaking the DRM on audio discs, even if your only goal is to create a personal backup or transfer the songs to your iPod (where the DRM won't let you create an MP3).

(2) Consumers didn't like this so they petitioned the Copyright Office (under the once every three years review process I mentioned above) for an exemption from the DMCA's prohibition on circumventing the DRM.  In other words they said, since making backups and copying songs to my iPod is a non-infringing use, I should be able to break the DRM to do only that, as long as I don't then infringe on the works.  If the Copyright Office granted the exemption, you'd be legally allowed to use programs like DVD Decrypter to create backups of your DVDs (or transfer them to your video iPod), as long as you didn't then share them on P2P (or do something else infringing).  If you were later found to have infringed as a result of the circumvention, then you would still be liable for the DMCA's prohibition too.  (The Copyright Office has granted other similar exemptions for Libraries and whatnot).

(3) The RIAA/MPAA didn't like this idea at all, because the entire purpose of the DRM isn't to stop piracy. Otherwise, why wouldn't the above scheme work?  You could still charge the pirates under the law, just not regular people who were just trying to get their legally purchased music onto their iPod. Nope.  The real purpose of the DRM is to allow them to double and triple charge you for the same content (once for each format you need it in).

(4) So they filed a response with the US Copyright Office saying "No.  Even though we said backups and 'format shifting' were okay in the past (never mind that the Supreme Court said so too), that was only because we authorized the users to do so" (I guess in some imaginary contract all of us signed when we were sleeping).  However, they now are saying that they reserve the right to retract that authorization at any time, and of course they do retract it for any DRM protected content.  So, by their logic, since this consumer goal of "format shifting" and "personal backups" is not a protected non-infringing use there is no reason for the US Copyright Office to grant an exemption.  Good for them, since they will then be able to sell you a separate copy of that movie for your home DVD player, a MP4 version for your video iPod, a UMD version for your PSP, and so on and so forth (same goes for music, if you want that DRM protected CD content converted to work on your iPod, that's okay, we'll sell you another copy for "a reasonable price").
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KingSparta

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2006, 12:38:54 pm »

Quote
don't see how any forward thinking congressman would be able to look at this explanation, even when dressed up in it legal wording

Maybe there fingers are in the Till

Or

Maybe it is President Bush's Fault
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glynor

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2006, 01:22:04 pm »

Part of the problem is that "the need to protect Intellectual Property from piracy" has what the government would consider an important argument.

With the "manufacturing base" of the US economy moving offshore at an ever-increasing pace (a migration that is completely inevitable given current global "Free" trade policies and the obvious economic realities for corporations) we will need some way to maintain our economic strength in the world.  In other words, eventually we will need something to sell, since we won't be making many physical goods anymore.

The RIAA/MPAA/BSA (business software association) et all argue that that thing is our IP.  Our creativity.  And, they argue, if we can't get our own citizens to respect this intangible information "ownership", how will we get China and India and the Philippines and Brazil to?  Before the industrial revolution wealth was mostly controlled by land ownership, which was because of agricultural economic power.  After the industrial revolution, it shifted to manufacturing capacity (which is one of the main reasons we won WW2 after all).  Now it is shifting to Information ownership and Energy production.  We certainly haven't figured out how to control the energy markets, so we're betting on Information (with a long term goal of potentially our technology also solving the energy problems).

Its a valid argument, but I don't think their proposed solution is actually designed to protect those things (but rather profit margins).  I don't think it will work, and I don't think it will help us to maintain creative and technical superiority.  I worry that in this new age of information ownership, patentable business practices, and never-ending digitally locked copyright we will lose the technical advantages that we have used throughout the industrial revolution to maintain technological superiority over other nations in the world.

Meaning, I think that stealing and borrowing technology is what advances it.  That if China and India continue to borrow heavily from what we have made (technically and culturally), changing and improving it, while we are putting up artifical walls in this country to prevent ourselves from doing the same, we will lose the "edge" that the government is being convinced to try to protect.  The corporations won't care because they will have been bought out and controlled by overseas interests.  I think sticking up for the consumer on these issues will help protect our technical edge, not hurt it.

I think reasonable and limited protections for creative works and technical works are needed.  The balance is essential though, and the line has been pushed and pushed over the last 30 years or so.  Now, when I think the balance will be more important than ever, we seem to be making revolutionary changes without really analyzing the problem and ensuring the fix won't be worse than the disease.
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hit_ny

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2006, 01:43:33 pm »

Wow...good summary there glynor..finally something to understand than the typical foaming at the mouth response i've seen elsewhere regarding this issue.

..thing i'm wondering about, going by your explanation about the workflow is...

..if the RIAA say no to the consumer appeal..

..What happens ?

..it's my understanding that it was always illegal to backup from media, the exception they made is they won't prosecute as a result. This was called Fair-use.

Now they are saying you can't do that anymore..

..is there any recourse here for the consumer here ?

...it would seem none at all.
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JaredH

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2006, 04:34:39 pm »

Maybe there fingers are in the Till

Or

Maybe it is President Bush's Fault

Haha, seems like everything is his fault these days, right?  ::)
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glynor

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2006, 08:48:20 am »

..it's my understanding that it was always illegal to backup from media, the exception they made is they won't prosecute as a result. This was called Fair-use.

Now they are saying you can't do that anymore..

Not quite.  If you look at relevant caselaw from the past, it is pretty likely that backups and format shifting would be considered by the courts to be protected non-infringing fair use.  Just because the RIAA says that you can't do that anymore doesn't mean it's true.

However, just because creating backups is fair use doesn't necessarily mean that the DMCA is unconstitutional either...

We will first have to see what the copyright office decides, because (it is fairly unlikely given their track record) but they could side with the consumers on this issue.  If not, then I imagine there will be a court case eventually which will go to the supreme court that will try to decide the issue.
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jgreen

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2006, 10:23:06 am »

"Look at the relevant caselaw"?  Excuse me, Glynor, but aren't you a graphic artist?  I mean, did you recently do layout for a law book or maybe a brochure for a law school reunion?

I'm sorry.  What I meant to say was, this is all very interesting, but is there a practical aspect to all this? 

Because, whether they have the right to or not, Windows Vista and accompanying motherboards and hard drives will give them the ability to enforce this.  No longer will it be the one in one-billion chance of getting a letter from the RIAA.  If you buy a computer in 2007 you will not be able to rip a commercial CD, whatever your intent.  Windows, OSX, Red Hat Linux are all signed up to participate.  So don't throw out your old computers (no infringing intent implied).
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hit_ny

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2006, 02:53:46 pm »

Because, whether they have the right to or not, Windows Vista and accompanying motherboards and hard drives will give them the ability to enforce this.  No longer will it be the one in one-billion chance of getting a letter from the RIAA.  If you buy a computer in 2007 you will not be able to rip a commercial CD, whatever your intent.  Windows, OSX, Red Hat Linux are all signed up to participate.  So don't throw out your old computers (no infringing intent implied).
WHO says that comps will be sold with the TC component turned on instead of optional ??

I have yet to read/hear a convincing argument that explains how to go from totally open ->>totally locked down. Oh it "could" happen, but we can say that for a heck of lot of things as well too right ;)

and back to the main topic, it appears the jury is still out on this RIAA thing.

My bet is that the consumer will win, too bad that's not as scary, or as sensational as the opposite....just plain business as usual.
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glynor

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2006, 05:15:34 pm »

"Look at the relevant caselaw"?  Excuse me, Glynor, but aren't you a graphic artist?  I mean, did you recently do layout for a law book or maybe a brochure for a law school reunion?
Well that was a fairly blatant troll, but...

I am certainly not a lawyer, but I am a freedom loving concered citizen.  I can and do read court filings, laws, and analysis from a wide variety of sources.  Also, these issues are deeply involved in my job which involves video editing, graphic design, animation, sound design, and many other similar persuits.  IP law is essential to my work.

I am certainly not always right, but I try to base my statements and beliefs on evidence and documentation.  If there was a specific question or disagreement you had with something I posted, I would be happy to discuss the point and provide any links to relevant background information that I have (and hopefully I will learn something in the process).  I would prefer not to address or discuss personal attacks as they do not and cannot serve to influence the quality of the information people provide.
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Mastiff

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2006, 01:45:21 pm »

This really boils down to this: Joe Sixpack won't even know what hit him, we who know enough about this to even discuss it will have ways of getting around the problem. I'm gonna buy at least 20 motherboards with CPUs and memory for storage the day the marked starts adopting motherboards that can't run regular Windows XP and rip my own CDs and DVDs to my media server like my computers does now. I may have to buy some DVD drives as well. Maybe even harddrives in the future will refuse to work with motherboards without the correct components.

The main point for me is that the computer technology is at a point now where I can watch a DVD in my HT with one program while MC is serving up music for five zones simultaneously without any problems. That's really all I need, at least for the forseable future. Those hyped HD DVD formats are already dead in the water for me because I won't be able to watch anything but scaled down versions on my analogue CRT projector...until somebody cracks that as well. ;)
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jgreen

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2006, 02:29:18 pm »

Hey Glynor--
I certainly meant no "personal attacks" in my post.  And in looking back through my post, I can't find any, but I'll defer to your judgement on this.  My apologies again.

Funny thing is, in looking back through your post, I can't find some things that I could swear were there before.  Specifically:  didn't you state that you reuse client materials in other projects?  Wasn't there something to that effect in your original reply? 

Well, I'm seeing things, clearly.  Because there's no grey area involved in that, as we both know. 

As for my original attack on your legal expertise, I stand by it.  Neither you nor I can call ourselves experts in IP or any sort of law, no matter how much we read or write.  I'm sure that you've read as much dry case law as you claim to, and I envy you for having so much spare time.  My original point being, simply, that you do have several valid areas of expertise, compared to which "Joe Sixpack", as Mastiff says, will never know what hit him.  Audio, Video, graphic design, high-end computing.  There are real changes coming in these areas which you dismiss out of hand, apparently as being too terrible to imagine.  Well, they're on their way, no matter what you say.

IMO here, you're awfully quick to play the "Troll" card.  There are some who say that shouting "Troll" is in fact Trolling.  But I don't care.  I forgive you either way.  (Blatant Troll).
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hit_ny

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2006, 04:12:55 pm »

I'm gonna buy at least 20 motherboards with CPUs and memory for storage the day the marked starts adopting motherboards that can't run regular Windows XP and rip my own CDs and DVDs to my media server like my computers does now. I may have to buy some DVD drives as well. Maybe even harddrives in the future will refuse to work with motherboards without the correct components.
I could not help thinking about ppl saying the same with regards to fuel & food supplies when W2K was coming :)

Why customers will accept less freedom than what they have had in the past is the sticking point here...If they won't is it fair to say this day that you dread, just might not happen.

Unless there is something like 9/11 except with the world's computers, you know some bad thing has to happen, to convince people they need to give up more freedom to be safe. Oh and this will have to be totally international to have any chance of succeding.
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JaredH

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2006, 06:11:44 pm »

Looks to me like the issue is split right down the middle between two solutions which actually exist in opposition to each other:

1. Get the message out to people to make the right kind of noise. Talk to the people in places that can get things done. Get the information out there. Pound the pavement. Spend some money on info cards/flyers with the right information about the issues. Do exactly what those involved expect us not to do: Rally together to inform the masses.

2. Self-resignation. Admit defeat. Cry about people not caring enough and people being ignorant of issues and just let it happen because "it's unavoidable". Give up. Resign to the fact that the majority's ignorance will shape the future.

Interesting how issues like these bring out the basis of the type of people we are. These two simple choices could easily determine the type of person you may be.

Are you a World Changer?

Or do you just want to SEE the world change?

Then again, maybe I'm just an idealist.
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glynor

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Re: OT - Ripping to computer/portable device not fair use? RIAA says no!
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2006, 06:35:09 pm »

Hey Glynor--
I certainly meant no "personal attacks" in my post.  And in looking back through my post, I can't find any, but I'll defer to your judgement on this.  My apologies again.

And I'm sorry that I took it so harshly.  Was having a sleepless day that day.   ::)

I agree, there are changes coming that I certainly don't like.  The main way I disagreed with your previous posting is on the inevitibility of it all.  I just think the battles are far from being over.  Trusted Computing is coming, but the rollout will be slow and staggered (mostly corporate focused at first).  There are exceptions, but Vista will not require most of the TCM components being mentioned (motherboard or hard drives) other than HDCP (and with the fiasco that that rollout will entail, it could slow the entire progress of the plans down completely).  And besides, there's no gun to our heads to even buy Vista.  As Mastiff said, my stuff is working fine with XP as is.

Remember, when Intel first put a serial number in the Pentium 3 there were lots of cries that the sky was falling.  Those cries were important, because they prevented the sky from doing just that.  I'm just not going to get hysterical quite yet.  I guess you could say, it ain't over until the fat lady sings...

All in all I'm with Mastiff on the whole HD-DVD copy protection thing.  I give HD movies a big huge yawn, and I don't think I'm alone.  Think about it.  The average "Joe Sixpack" doesn't even realize that regular DVD's aren't HD already.  I wonder how they think they're going to sell them on all this new stuff when they just got finished building up a DVD library.  And even once people do figure out that HD is a bit better, all the repressive copy restriction, HDCP problems, and confusing licenses are just going to make the Pirated versions (which will work fine in HD on Vista even without a HDCP compliant video card/montior) look all the more enticing to good old Joe.  I think it could all just backfire.

As far as the "expertise" question... Absolutely.  I could be completely wrong (and most likely am completely wrong in at least a few places).  This, just like any similar thread, is all just conjecture until we are looking back on events from the future.
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