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[Matt]

We're playing with how view settings like columns, sorting, thumbnails sizes, etc. are stored in Media Center.

The current system of view settings remembered (basically) per tree item drives me crazy.  I end up with every view and playlist looking different.  Not intentionally mind you, but just because applying to all / resetting, etc. is tedious and somewhat confusing -- especially since new playlists and views don't always inherit the settings.

My proposal is to simplify things so that there would be a set of settings for each media type.  Changing the columns in one audio view would automatically apply to all audio views.  The same holds for other settings and other media types.

This system works well as long as it's easy to switch from thumbs to details, change thumbnail sizes, add and remove a column, etc.

A possible addition to this would be to add a simple "[X] Keep this view's settings separate" check to the Options menu at the top-right of every view.  If that was ticked, changes would stay with that view only.  It would be unticked by default.

How do other people feel about this?  Thanks for any help.

[Mr ChriZ]

Overall yep sounds good to me, but I'd really want that tick as standard.
The reason being, I like to choose the size of thumbnails based
on how many thumbnails are likely to be in the view I'm viewing.
With Audio this doesn't change much, but with Video I have this
all set up quite precisely... it would be a shame to loose that ability.

[jgreen]

As long as you make the option, I think you've retained the power and yet enhanced the usability.  To me, there's a world of difference between my Global Audio view and Playing Now or any of the custom views.  I want to retain the custom columns, and if you want to make my life easier with all the custom views, allow me to set a custom background color for each view--that way I would be less likely to get lost.

[removed split view discussion by Matt -- point noted but I want to keep this from swerving off-topic]

[Johnny B]

As long as you make the option, I think you've retained the power and yet enhanced the usability.

I do agree. I personally do use similar views so the unfortunately missing option "Save for all views" (or similar) is something I really would like to have back...

[removed split view discussion by Matt -- point noted but I want to keep this from swerving off-topic]

[Matt]

I do agree. I personally do use similar views so the unfortunately missing option "Save for all views" (or similar) is something I really would like to have back...

There would be no "Save" option since there would only be a handful of different views.  (i.e. if you changed columns in a library audio view, all library audio views would have those columns now)

[park]

It sounds fine to me.

The different sorting methods and thumbnail sizes would still be remembered on a per library view basis though, right??? (ie. MC would still remember your preferences to have genre's sorted alphabetically, artists sorted by date played, etc.)

[Listener]

> We're playing with how view settings like columns, sorting, thumbnails
> sizes, etc. are stored in Media Center.

Do you mean view or view scheme?

----
I'm concerned that Matt's proposal is too simple and removes some good behaviors that exist  in the program now. Here are some examples:

1. I set some tags for the CD drive listing before I start the ripping for a CD. I choose the columns to be shown to fit that purpose.  I don't want them changed because I changed a view in a different part of the tree.

2. I use the Recently ripped item in the tree to check for errors in tagging CDs I've ripped.  I ALWAYS want those files listed by sequence number when I click on "Recently Ripped".  I might click on a column heading to see files sorted a different way for my current purpose but I don't want that temporary sorting change to affect the way I view my libraries (under the audio part of the tree.)

3. In viewing a library, I may temporarily change the sorting of files or view extra columns for a temporary purpose but I want to be able to revert to the normal view when I next enter the same part of the tree.  Having a one-click way to revert to the normal view for a tree would be an improvement over the current scheme.

4. I want to have multiple views/view schemes  for a single library.  Each view scheme may have a particular purpose: to view a subset of the library, to view t columns not usually seen, to aid in finding and fixing errors in  tags or database fields.   I need to be able to set up


--- My recommendations

-  Provide for setting a default view or view scheme at each level of the tree.  Each level inherits the settings from the next higher level but the user can define a default for each level.

- On entry to viewing a level in the tree, apply the current default for that level.

- Allow the user to make temporary changes to the view / view scheme with the current methods.  These would not change the default view/ view scheme settings for this level in the tree or any other level until saved.

-. Provide an easy way to save current view / view scheme settings.  Putting  save view settings on a right click menu would be good. Provide an option to make the saved changes apply upward in the tree.

- Provide a visible button to restore the view/ view scheme to the default for the level.

- Document the way setting and saving views/view schemes works beyond a sentence or two about each menu option.  (You might consider changing either view or view scheme since it isn't obvious to a new user what they mean.)

--- an observation about the recently discussed button
When I started with MC 11, I tried to figure out how to display the columns I wanted in the file listing, and get the view scheme I wanted.  I read the help carefully and scannged the forum for information on how MC 11 worked. I defined everything carefully and then clicked on the button in the middle the dialog.  It wiped out everything I had done.  I asked about the purpose of this button on this forum and was told not to worry about it, that the button was going away. 

I'd hate to see that button come back.

Bill

[datdude]

Here is a solution I would like to see:

I like the check box idea for on or off settings changes to other views however this could be made much more powerfull:

Whatever changes a user makes in the current view, MC, if the user ticked Matt's 'apply to other views box', would then ask to apply those changes to other specific locations with a list box poping up in the settings screen, with ALL of the MC views that you can tick or not tick. MC then only applies the changes you just made to that view and the other views ticked. 

The new MC view settings list box would list all views and could be toggled with parent child nodes like they currently are in the MC tree, to make it easy to select groups of views without having to select or unselect each individual view every time a settings change is made. (think smarlist pop up boxes that can be ticked unticked)

This would abstract out  the media type restriction and give the user ultimate control but still be easy to apply settings.

[Jaqqe]

Whatever changes a user makes in the current view, MC, if the user ticked Matt's 'apply to other views box', would then ask to apply those changes to other specific locations with a list box poping up in the settings screen, with ALL of the MC views that you can tick or not tick. MC then only applies the changes you just made to that view and the other views ticked. 

Yes, this sounds very, very nice!

[Dutch Peter]

Could you consider a copy / paste view settings.
Hereby one could bring over settings from one view to another, but not all.

(Please make sure you leave the settings as they are once this new functionality is introduced. It would be a pain to loose the current settings)

[marko]

Matt, do "drives and Devices > My Computer" fall into range of this discussion?

Would/Could it allow for different views to be retained for different folders?
I don't venture outside of MC very often, and make quite extensive use of the internal my computer area of the tree.
A 'favourite' folders node in there would be well handy

Reading your suggestion, it sounds fine. Just like explorer's folder options option, "set all folder views like this one", combined with the other option to "remember individual folder views" which is something I've always found so simple, but at the same time, so very clever, very, useful.
If I've understood correctly, then I'm all for the theory. Practice is generally a different story...
Any idea (ballpark) how far off the beta/alpha release is?

-marko.

[New Vermaje]

good idea ... if users can customise always all new wiews !

 

[Jaguu]

I feel the best way to standardize such things would be to define them based on "view schemes". A view scheme contains a very definite way to look at things  and I feel most of the definitions should be concentrated here with the switch of inheriting or not inheriting in sub-view schemes.

Defining on a media type level is a bit limiting, as media types can mean different things. For example I have two top level view schemes for audio, a very complex one for classical music and a more standard one for all other music. It would really be awful to reset my classical music scheme to some new default.

The same happens with images: I have a main view scheme for artworks wich columns such as galleries, country, paintstyle, paintperiod etc. and another more standard for photos .

The same with video, one view scheme for movies, another one for tv series episodes.

So the way you look at and organize media depends highly on a kind of extended or virtual media type that is defined by a distinguished view scheme.

I feel many more things could be simply defined on a view scheme basis such as renaming rules, displayed tags in File properties in AW, column views etc.

The individual view scheme definition forms would become centralized containers on how information would be displayed for distinguished media types.

An extension of media types to some kind of user defined virtual media types would also be very handy, audio, images, video seem to be a little bit too limiting as there are different kinds of audios, images, videos etc.

[Doof]

I like simple. But I also appreciate the flexibility. For me, I basically have two types of view schemes per media type.

1. My general browsing view schemes. For audio, this is just Artist/Album. I'm simple that way. The columns in this view are equally simple, Name, Artist, Album, Track #, Genre, Duration and Rating. I really don't need, nor want a lot of columns cluttering things up.

2. Task based views. I have a few view schemes that help me do some different tagging chores. Each of these view schemes has different columns showing based solely on what tagging chore I need to do. So having columns I set in one view scheme automatically permeate to all of the others would be a huge hassle. As long as I could keep them all seperate, I'm happy. I don't really care about thumbnail size, to be honest. It's nice to be able to have different sizes, but it's not crucial.

But you know me. I like simple interfaces. Just don't strip away the functionality at the same time, or you'll be in the same boat as WMP.

[MrC]

I hate to say it, but Outllook 2003's views aren't too bad.  Views can be global, or per folder, and each folder remembers the last set view.  A simple pulldown list of customized views allows quick view switching.   I'd like to see something like this.  Currently, it feels like "things to see" is too closely associated with "how to see them".  I'd like to be able to select the things to see in the tree on the right, and set the view on how to see them from a quick pulldown that presents all the global views and that tree item's specific views.  The view selected is sticky, and changes to columns, etc. adds a new customized view and does not change other views.  Defined views must be specifically changed.

There are times when I want to see minimal information in  MC for a given media, and other times when I want to see more info.  I would hate to see changesto MC  that push the same settings to other views.

[hit_ny]

How about just being able to save all the different customisations that can be done with the current system ?

That's really the sorely missed feature here, isnt't it. Instead of introducing a different way of doing things. MC automatically remembers how views were set up, no need for a save button except maybe to create a template to be used with other views. I have never used save for all locations ever, because some views can be unique. But that does not mean it isn't helpful to others.

You have all the power to order things and set them up just the way you want, only prob is it gets lost with each upgrade.

[Dutch Peter]

Please consider controlling the sort order of panes (like columns).

[hit_ny]

Sort order of panes would be good to have. Another thing i would like is Copy+paste from panes.

[Tommy]

I think it sound like a really good idea, I will be fine with one single default view for each media type, with the possibilty to tick a custom setting for a specific list. Excellent suggestion!

Loading my standard setting for each and every playlist is starting to drive me crazy!

[JONCAT]

"1. I set some tags for the CD drive listing before I start the ripping for a CD. I choose the columns to be shown to fit that purpose.  I don't want them changed because I changed a view in a different part of the tree."

This is my main concern since I like to have Audio, my main view scheme which encompasses everything to have many columns/fields which I don't want "clogging" up my other view schemes. I have them in Audio so I can edit them or tag unamed files with long fields like Filename.

DC

[dlone]

My proposal is to simplify things so that there would be a set of settings for each media type.  Changing the columns in one audio view would automatically apply to all audio views.  The same holds for other settings and other media types.

Please, no
That assumes all audio is music

Audiobooks don't fit it in that scheme

My albums are artist, date, album, track#
My singles are artist, name
My audiobooks have custom fields for 'overall series', 'series', 'book order'
And this works fantastically right now

In fact i'd like the left hand tree list to follow my rules as well instead of just alphabetically


My main reason for buying this was the customization
If you had this system, I wouldn't have bought it, and certainly wouldn't spend money upgrading in the future

If I wanted the same for everything there's lots of free ones

If you do it, please make it optional 

[zxsix]

I really like the idea.  I'm the same way with about 12 views under audio, most slightly different.
However, the checkbox to allow a couple views not to follow the general rule would be required for me.  I only have one view where I want the lyrics or comments fields showing for example.

[dlone]

Actually all my files have a master custom field called 'Catagory' that i've defined as a string list along the lines of 'Albums', 'Singles', 'Downloads', 'Audiobooks', 'Pictures' etc

Each view I have only includes the files in this catagory - leaving an 'Uncatagorized' view for ones I havn't assigned yet

This way, images or videos can be assigned to albums etc, so that book cover pictures can be included with audiobooks, audio tracks like comentaries  can be assigned with videos

I value this program as the 'techie' version of media player, as at the moment it allows me to see a collection of apparently unrelated files as a single object
Remove this, and i can't see a reason not to use the built in media player

Granted, it takes a little bit longer to set up, but then this is offset by how easy it is to just drag an image to a book or a text file with the cast list to a film

My method isn't for everyone, but that's the beauty of this program at the moment
Once you start exploring the system, you can alter it to exactly your requirements (apart from that really annoying left hand tree list that always shows alphabetically - Matt the tree and the contents really should sort in the same order)

The least worst option I'd vote for is

A clean install starts in 'user' mode, then you can go to the options to enable umm 'power user' mode

Far from wanting this to be slimmed down, I'd argue in the long term for it to be enhanced
Strip this database, rewrite it as a proper sql system, uses blobs to store the thumbnails instead of the halfway house of DB+associated files
I wrote an external browser of MC files for myself using ADO and MSDE in about 3 hours - these guys have to worry about more than I did though, so I'd expect a longer development time (call it months for hours)

Granted, ADO will be a bit slower than direct access to their own data, but the tests I've performed with a db on a lan server generate differences that have to be measured using a stopwatch compared to MC (and a db on your own pc wuld be quicker than that, but I was going for the worst case), and in a lot of places MC performs worse
This would also give the added benefit of a world wide system of search expressions that anyone can find easily on the web

Now compare that to
All your audio is sorted the same

 ?

Now, I do appreciate that this is overkill for a lot of users, but providing a cut down view system is just an interface question and is quite easy to resolve (but time consuming)
I can't see the value in devolving this into a replica of media player and then buying it
Yes, I can see the reason for an easy version (all the posts about simple things show that a lot of users can't/won't investigate the options) , but I can't see why I should upgrade to a 'brain-dead' version
Why would I buy it when the older version does more than than the newer version ?

If this change is made, I would not buy mc 12 - I bought this exactly because of what Matt's worried about, and so far have made JRiver a total of an extra fouteen people whou bought it because of this feature (not including me), purely from how they saw it working on my pc and I could show them how it could be adapted to their requirement

I think a web page with hints and tips would be a better option than lobotomizing this wonderful program

[johnnyboy]

I personally have all mine different practically.
I create view schemes for the same stuff specifically just to use different views with each VS.
For me this would be a pain and definitely not the answer. Its an area though that I agree needs work as it can be a pain to move settings to another view.

I agree with the person who said the ability to save views is all thats needed.
You could choose from a drop down which view you wanted to use and could create and save new ones.
All views with the same name would then be linked so if I changed one view called audio1 for instance - all audio1 views would then be changed. All other views that were using audio2 then would not change.

The extra power of this over what you said is that it would allow for changing say 5 views at once and then also changing 5 other views at the same time to something else. The way suggested would only work to change all to one view and would mean all others you wanted to be the same couldn't be changed easily.

[Marty3d]

Someone said that using a drop-down would be good for selecting how to display the view. And all above would like to have an optional setting for changing views or not.

Why not do the following:

- A "view builder", where you can setup different views like you want them. This module could be "hidden" away from the daily places you go to within MC to reduce clutter. Here's also a couple of presets to play with.
- In "Create/Edit View", you get the drop-down with the result from View Builder where you choose which type you want.

It prevents all-the-time-changing of the views, but I believe that if a user do that, the user does not know what she wants.

[glynor]

All-in-all I think the idea sounds fine (as long as you have the check-box "exempt this view" option).  I must say... I think it may be somewhat unnecessary.  I thought the "Apply to all Child Views" option, along with the capability to create Customize Current View "Profiles" was more than adequate (the "profiles" system could have used some work but still)...

However, I do see a few potential problems:

1) I have a few View Schemes that mix audio/video/images/documents.  Perhaps it would also be good to have a "global default" that would cover these... Or else I could just exempt them I suppose.

2) Don't include sorting, or at least have any sorting done in "Step 4" of the View Scheme's settings override the more "generalized" sorting rules.

3) Any time you apply "Exempt this View" it should automatically apply the exemption to any child views.  Otherwise it will be just as obnoxious to have to go through and manually fix all of those (especially when you have "Populate Tree" chosen).

[NoCodeUK]

Please don't do this...  I would not like this at all.  As others have said my main reason for using MC is its customization of views and the fact that I can have every view scheme different.  If I wanted all Audio views to be the same I would use iTunes.  It displays audio in a basic way incredibly well but it cannnot do any of the things I can do with MC hence the reason I pay for your product rather than simply logging onto apple and getting theirs for free.

Adam

[Galley]

I think that's how RealPlayer does it, and it seems to work very well.

[newsposter]

Screen shots of the proposed layouts would be nice.....

[modelmaker]

I like simple. But I also appreciate the flexibility. For me, I basically have two types of view schemes per media type.

1. My general browsing view schemes. For audio, this is just Artist/Album. I'm simple that way. The columns in this view are equally simple, Name, Artist, Album, Track #, Genre, Duration and Rating. I really don't need, nor want a lot of columns cluttering things up.

2. Task based views. I have a few view schemes that help me do some different tagging chores. Each of these view schemes has different columns showing based solely on what tagging chore I need to do. So having columns I set in one view scheme automatically permeate to all of the others would be a huge hassle. As long as I could keep them all seperate, I'm happy. I don't really care about thumbnail size, to be honest. It's nice to be able to have different sizes, but it's not crucial.

But you know me. I like simple interfaces. Just don't strip away the functionality at the same time, or you'll be in the same boat as WMP.

My usage is very much like King's and I also like simplicity.

How about just being able to save all the different customisations that can be done with the current system ?

That's really the sorely missed feature here, isnt't it. Instead of introducing a different way of doing things. MC automatically remembers how views were set up, no need for a save button except maybe to create a template to be used with other views. I have never used save for all locations ever, because some views can be unique. But that does not mean it isn't helpful to others.

You have all the power to order things and set them up just the way you want, only prob is it gets lost with each upgrade.

Losing all your settings during an upgrade, IMHO is, (and always has been), MC's biggest PITA!

[JONCAT]

I like simplicity within view schemes but I keep Audio permeated with many tag fields or also in places like 'locate in MC internally" so I can edit esoteric tag fields that I don't always need for simple browsing and playback.

I have a lot of view schemes and inevitably they are all set up a little different; tag fields, thumbnail text present or not present, different sorting, and varying tile sizes throughout for each respective view.

I guess more often I end up customizing each scheme itself but would like the option for certain settings to permeate all, but retain the power to then adjust anything that's been added individually.

DC