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[Myron]

I read a post in another forum where the writer said that J River writes its own ASIO drivers. ?

Here's the exact statement:

ASIO drivers are implemented by MC, and are their own versions. MC has everything to do with their own ASIO output, and every company that implements ASIO drivers does so differently.

Gee, I thought MC just sends digital data to whatever driver the user specifies and that card drivers such as ASIO are written by other parties, usually the ones that sell sound cards.

Am I right?

[Matt]

Media Center (like any app that uses ASIO) leverages the Steinberg ASIO SDK.  This is chained in at the tail of our playback as an output plugin.

We needed to do some extra leg to provide thread safety because Steinberg didn't handle this in their design.

ASIO drivers are for output devices like a soundcard, which MC uses but does not implement.

[Myron]

Matt,

Thanks for the input.

So are the playback data manipulated in any way if all user controllable processing (DSP, volume, etc.) is disabled?

I'm told that the people over at Lynx Sudio Technology (http://www.lynxstudio.com/index.html) think that MC does not handle ASIO properly:

As a matter of fact, I was explicitly instructed by Lynx engineers to NOT use MC's ASIO (they are very familiar with MC). Apparently they are very displeased with the quality of the ASIO implementation in MC. I tried it out and noticed no improvement over DirectSound.

This all sounds pretty fishy to me.  Any comments?

[jgreen]

Myron,
I'd like to read up on this discussion.  Could you kindly post a link to that forum where this is stated?  You've posted a link to the Lynx web site, which I already know how to locate.  Any chance you can link us to the person making these claims about MC and about Lynx?

FWIW, I cannot tell the difference between ASIO and Wave Out, on two differently configured machines.  Moreover, I can't find anyone with direct experience in ASIO who claims that it offers an improvement, rather than insurance against degradation.

[Myron]

jgreen,

You can find the full thread here: http://www.promixis.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14901

I go by user name emmee over there.

I'm not sure how technically inclined you are, so tread carefully.  Many of the claims made, especially near the end of the thread, are, in my opinion, technically inaccurate.  I'm trying to be nice, so that's all I'll say for now.

As for the audibility of differences between ASIO and other output modes I personally have not yet made the comparison.  However, I can say with 100% certainty that ASIO in MC passes the DTS and AC3 'bit-perfect' test.  Direct Sound and Wave Out do not.  I've tried this with two different M-Audio cards on two different machines.

In case you're not familiar with this test, it involves playing a DTS or AC3 encoded WAV file out via the digital output of a sound card to see if an external processor can decode the audio.  Any manipulation of the data, such as volume control, will result in the processor not being able to decode the audio.

Enjoy...

[Mike Noe]

...FWIW, I cannot tell the difference between ASIO and Wave Out, on two differently configured machines.  Moreover, I can't find anyone with direct experience in ASIO who claims that it offers an improvement, rather than insurance against degradation.

If I'm understanding you guys properly, fwiw, I've done quite a bit of testing in various configuations with my "systems" and using MC to drive ASIO in my system, there is a very discernable difference over wavout and direct sound (XPSP2).  All of my "testing" has been simply sitting down and listening for hours and hours on end.

My general impressions are that with ASIO, the stage is deeper, the low-end is more articulate and the noise floor "seems" lower.  Again, I don't measure and I occasionally query my wife as a blind back stop to verify or cancel my impressions.

My current system is...

All lossless APE (some FLAC) --> ASIO out --> RME Digi96/8 PST....

from there, I can go analog out from the RME *and* S/P DIF out to an external DAC and then on to my preamp.  My pre is a Transcendent Sound Grounded Grid, the amps are currently Transcendent T8-LN monoblocks and the speakers are the Hammer Dynamics Super 12s that I built.  All of my gear is plugged into power conditioners, we have terrible power out here.  The Transcendent Sound gear is neutral and very articulate and my listening room is on the lively side.

I too have done all the DTS and DD testing thru MC with success on all using a Proceed AVP and the Proceed AMP5 (this was many moons ago).

hth.

[Matt]

MC has excellent ASIO support.  It passes signals in a bit-perfect manner, which is validated by Myron and Mike's reports of using DTS and DD. (these require a bit-perfect stream)

Anyone saying otherwise (and making the non-sensical statements you reported above) has an agenda they're not telling you about.

[jgreen]

Myron--
Yeah, I thought so.  Thank you for the link, it was very entertaining.  I thought you showed great patience+knowledge in your counter arguments, but I don't think you got anywhere with that guy.  As Matt alludes, there are a handful of people out there nursing their own (worn-out) agendas, and they all sing in unison:  there's some unverifiable gripe about MC, although most of them still use MC.

Mike, I think the test that you conducted is the only test that matters, although my results differed from yours. 

FWIW, people who prefer ASIO seem to credit aspects of coloring and staging, which doesn't make sense to me.  I would have to believe that the apparent difference would present itself in granularity, or not at all.  To me, ASIO seems like a clumsier playback process, and if I can't hear the difference, I'm not going to fork over the CPU cycles.

[Myron]

Thanks, guys, for your responses and for confirming my understanding of MC.

jgreen, You're right, I didn't get anywhere with the poster over at Promixis.  I often wonder why I bother.  I think it's because I hate seeing technical nonsense in public forums that will lead otherwise sensible people astray.  If I can save just one person from this kind of garbage I'll feel better.

Unfortunately the 'audiophile' world is too full of know-it-alls that spew pseudoscience in an attempt to explain what they're hearing.  I have no doubt that there are audible differences between components and consider myself an audiophile - I just don't buy 99.9 % of the crap that's published as technical explanations.

Mike, thanks for sharing your experiences.

Matt, glad to see you're taking the high road on this.

I'm really thankful for having Interact available.  It's refreshing to not have to wade through nonsense to get intelligent answers and thoughts.

[Myron]

Just in case anyone's interested, I made one final post to the Promixis thread, trying to set the record straight on some of the most offensive items.

Matt,
I took the liberty to quote your responses.  Perhaps I should have asked permission first, but I figured that since this is a public forum that it would be OK.  If not, sorry, it won't happen again.


I also just got done with some quick comparisons between ASIO and Direct Sound.  There is an audible difference in depth of presentation, imaging and quality high frequencies like cymbals.

[erlebo]

"MC is sending analog PCM to the card, and the card is converting to digital"
I really hope he doesn't have customers that spend a lot of money based on his advice.
He doesn't know how to configure things properly and the S/PDIF output he ends up with sounds worse than the S/PDIF on any DVD/CD player.

MC's ASIO output is bit-perfect (I too have done the DTS .wav test). Only the sound card can make a difference.