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[benn600]

I was reading wikipedia on the Dixie Chicks - Taking The Long Way CD and just had to laugh to see the PROFESSIONAL reviews list.  One gave the album a half star.  The first paragraph said how it's funny how Rolling Stone and many other review magazines give most of what they review a 4 or 5 star rating.  This makes complete sense.  I totally agree that these ratings are worthless.

But, that doesn't make the last item listed any more right.  Just because you occasionally give out a 1 star rating doesn't mean you do any better.  I don't understand music ratings AT ALL.  Movie ratings aren't as bad, but music is completely subjective.  Everyone WILL in fact have a different opinion completely.  It makes no sense to me why anyone would put more than a general info-thirst into a professional album review.  Pandora is the only reviewers I trust because they truly examine the technical construction of songs to find similar songs.  They provide minimal overviews for CDs that seem to be general enough to be agreeable--with technical details to back up their statements.

[hit_ny]

Your "discovery" is not too surprising.

Music tends to have its herds, top review sites work on number of items sold, which in itself lends to the most common denominator.

You have to decide which genres you like, identify which review sites focus on these and you will be happier.

of course you could always try different stuff on a whim, but that's tricky at best and can work out costly in the long run.

[jgreen]

I heard a rumor sommewhere that pop acts (rock, rap, etc) aren't selected on the basis of technical expertise, but--get this--on the basis of how much money the sponsoring record company thinks that act can generate.  I wonder if there's any correlation among professiional reviewers, or professional anything--other than college professors, of course. 

[BullishDad]

but--get this--on the basis of how much money the sponsoring record company thinks that act can generate. 

I have to agree with Mr. Green here.  Money does make the world go round!

[benn600]

yep.  it's just so funny to think that you can rate an entire album 1-5 stars.  First, how are you able to condense 12 songs down?  Do you pick the best song and rate the album that?  An average score?  Order of tracks usually doesn't matter to MC users because they rarely listen to songs in order, I would think...random works pretty good usually.  Star ratings only work well on individual tracks.

Plus, when every CD is a 4 or 5--what then?  Are you not going to buy it just because it only got a 4?!  I give up on ratings!  The only good ratings are ratings by other consumers on consumer products about whether it works or not...music can work for some people but not others.  If everyone agreed on music taste, then all CDs that sold at all would be owned by everyone.

[lOth]

Let's also make fun of the pitchfork rating approach, from 0.0 to 10.0 :

http://www.vugmedia.com/node/163

[jgreen]

When I'm looking for music in an area I know nothing about, I really appreciate knowing what people who love artist-X think is artist-X's best work, and why.  In that sense, 1-5 ratings work.  But some idiot who's paid by the inch of verbiage to go on and on about an artist they don't even like?  Save it, please.   

[zirum]

I bought three albums yesterday. And this is why:

Thomas Dybdahl, Science:
I've listned a lot to his previous album, and since it's a local artist (from norway, thats local enough...), i'm willing to sponsor him even if the album isn't that good.

The Mars Volta, Amputechiture:
I've seen some really good reviews on this, and since i've liked earlier material, I probaly won't be disapointed.

The Killers, Hot fuss:
An old album, but has some tunes I liked, so i thought i'd go and support they too:)

Haven't listend to any of them yet, just got them ripped. My point is that even thou reviews may have a small impact, in the end, it's very varying why I buy the record. Most often, i find me buying records I actually downloaded a year ago or so, because I want to support the artist. But now I came to think of, do artists get the same royalties over time? Anyone know?

[hit_ny]

yep.  it's just so funny to think that you can rate an entire album 1-5 stars. 

Sure you can, but why limit yourself to just 5 steps, not granular enough, if you go upto 10 with half points thats much better. Just round up or down to the nearest half point.

First, how are you able to condense 12 songs down?  Do you pick the best song and rate the album that?  An average score? 

Best song is obvious from the ratings, average score is what i use. I found it takes a few listens to stabilise the rating. Geting the ratings part down took a while for me, i used half ratings since i found myself constrained with just 3 points, gives less variance to the album score.

Order of tracks usually doesn't matter to MC users because they rarely listen to songs in order, I would think...random works pretty good usually. 

Depends on the music you listen to, maybe its true for the pop, country, rock crowd but it falls down with more loungey, electronic, mood music. You can certainly mix this sort of music up but it takes a bit of skill to get the feel right, random is no where close to doing this.

Each album is an experience on its own, i tried using random to rate stuff initially and found my ratings were skewed, some tracks sound better when heard in sequence in the album than on thier own.

Plus, when every CD is a 4 or 5--what then?

Maybe with just the classics, those would be in that range.

The only good ratings are ratings by other consumers on consumer products about whether it works or not...music can work for some people but not others.  If everyone agreed on music taste, then all CDs that sold at all would be owned by everyone.

I got pretty close when ppl that shared similar tastes recommended stuff, at worst i rated  5/10 albums as picks, a lot better than if i had to pick stuff out of random where i would have to go through 5-10 to find even a single pick.

Last FM could help a bit here. Checking out the sites recommended in an earlier thread, mystrands.com appears to do a decent job of finding similar music given an artist.

[runemail]

Having done this "professionally" for several years I find some of your comments amusing.
Reviewing an album is never objective and should never be. But it should always be honest.
Its not a science but an art to be a good music critic. I admit its sometimes hard to to be passionate about some of the more comercial acts out there. But can you really blame the critics.

What does 7 out of 10 or 4 out of 5 tell you about the music anyway?

And pitchfork is still made by and for wannabe hipsters. Some of their stuff is good reading but sometimes they are just to full of themselves.

I heard a rumor sommewhere that pop acts (rock, rap, etc) aren't selected on the basis of technical expertise, but--get this--on the basis of how much money the sponsoring record company thinks that act can generate. 

Ehh, hello! Earth calling! The record industry (and most other industries) have been working this way since the beginning. That’s not the issue; the problem is that the growth of "mass media" made most people watch the same channel (mtv). In practice this means that we are listening to the same music/artists. Witch again makes it more profitable for record companies to put more money into a few artists that succeed, and spend less money on those that does not sell(right away). The consolidation of the radio industry also negatively impacted this, with the same playlists on many channels.

Read more about this here (and watch the documentary for free! ):http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/music/

But now we have the internet and its "Long Tail" to help us out.

 

it's just so funny to think that you can rate an entire album 1-5 stars.  First, how are you able to condense 12 songs down?  Do you pick the best song and rate the album that?  An average score? 

The pop album and the movie is the two art forms that conquered the 20th century.
A good read about this can be found here: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1821196,00.html

The point is that an album should be something greater than the average of the songs on it, it should be a piece of art. I know im kind of old-school about this, and I belive The Modern Pop Album is about to die within the next generation(the same way vinyl “died”). But lets enjoy it while its still here.

Order of tracks usually doesn't matter to MC users because they rarely listen to songs in order, I would think...random works pretty good usually.

playing  albums in a random order seems stupid to me, did you use random on your cd player when you played cds back in the 90s?

People sometimes ask me, “What should I read, to learn more about music?” I usually tell them, “Oh, if you have the time, don’t read anything: Listen to something. Words, in the end, can do so little. That’s the point of music.” Critics have a role to play—I wouldn’t suggest otherwise. They have a role to play in explicating, in promoting, in teaching, in making mischief. But the keys to the kingdom of music must be gained by joining with music.

takken from this long but good piece about the role of the critic:
http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/22/feb04/Nov6.htm

If your looking for numbers about music go here:
http://rateyourmusic.com/
http://www.metacritic.com/music/

[benn600]

I don't disagree that you can rate an album a star rating based on its quality of production, etc., but here are some more thoughts.

I was browsing Pandora and happened across some Tracy Chapman CDs and I decided to read what they think of her music.  One really caught my eye.  The song they were discussing was "Dreaming On A World" on Matters Of The Heart.  The interesting conclusion they made was that the song was littered with too many "bells" and other instrumental sounds that harmed the final production of the song, which could have been much stronger had the engineering been better.

This seems so questionable.  Now this can apply to many more reviews than just the one mentioned...  First, you need to consider the quality of the stereo the music is being played on.  Most of my stereos are quite good--at least in providing good, deep bass with a great emphasis on high frequencies as well.  I steer clear from the computer speakers with mid ranges and a subwoofer.  I always make sure the system is 3 way for sure.  By the way, do you guys know of any 4 or even 5 way speakers?  As we constructed our theater, I rarely (if ever) saw any front speakers better than 3 way.  I know the importance of various speakers to provided the best frequency response!

But back to the issue and Dreaming on a World.  The bells could sound much louder or quieter based on the high frequency response capability a listener has.  This seems like a somewhat bad example but does explain a little bit about how ratings would only apply if you were in the same mood as the reviewer, using the same equipment, preferred the same type of music, etc...lots of different factors.

After doing some reaearch, I ran across a Wikipedia article on top selling CDs of all time.  The one at the top, selling 50 million copies (which I think would be 5x diamond) was...you guessed it, the CD was Thriller by Michael Jackson.

If he got 10 cents per album, that's $5 million.  He obviously got more--$1?  $50 million?  That would be interesting.

Now this presents a lot of questions.  I don't own the album at the moment but I plan on getting it soon just to see what the fuss is about.  I can't ask for reasons why it's so popular because I haven't heard it myself.  But, it's strange how, if I recall correctly, the majority of the top of the list consisted of albums from a long time ago.  Are people spreading out on music tastes?  OR, they are downloading more music (legally & legally)?  It's strange.

That would be neat to hold a Skypecast with up to 99 people and discuss the issues live and in person.  It's hard to generate all the questions I have without hearing other discussion to trigger my thoughts.  I guess that's enough goodie for now.

[jgreen]

Michael Mackson got $1 per album for "Thriller".  He later negotiated for $2 per album, I believe, but it was "Thriller" that made him the "whatever" he is today.

At the time of "Thriller", Michael was still living with his parents in Encino, CA.  Since they were (are) devout Jehovah's Witnesses, Michael Jackson, the most recognizable face on the planet at the time, was seen going door-to-door offering pamphlets and scriptural readings on behalf of their religion.

I was around at that time, and I can tell you that most of the fuss was about the slick production values of both the album and the videos.  There's solid music there but nothing that jumps out at you, apart from the packaging.  At the time Michael was a handsome young black man, hip and severe, a trendsetter in the eyes of many of us, rather than the confused old Aunt Tilly he is today (and so much more).   

[benn600]

I read about the album being pretty much the biggest seller of all time on Wikipedia and then an hour or two later I decided to watch Not Ready To Make Nice on Amazon Fishbowl.  It was amazing because he talked about how their incredible album can make the problems disappear--if you make a good product.  Then he went on to say that if Michael Jackson made an album as good as Thriller today, he could sleep with as many little boys as he wanted....I felt so amazed that I had just read about it before seeing it.  That my friends is why gen eds are important--or just reading wikipedia...

[hit_ny]

I don't disagree that you can rate an album a star rating based on its quality of production, etc., but here are some more thoughts.

Do you feel confident to coment on production quality ?

Even if you could..only thing that matters in the end is whether you like it or not. Not based on charts or how much it sold. As your tastes broaden you will appreciate others.

[goodog]

Hi Guys

This thread is really interesting to read but, I think you missed the main issue here and that is no matter what, any review is just someone's opinion no matter how informed, that's a fact and there's no way you can get around it. So, when you read a review obviously two things will happen, you'll either agree with it or you won't, either way what does that prove anyway? I'll give you an example of what I mean. I am a passionate Neil Young fan, I've been listening to his music more years than I care to remember and, 9 times out of 10 at least, Neil get's it right as far as I am concerned. So, he brings out a 'concept' album Greendale and I read the review of it in Mojo magazine....never in my life have a read a more damning review of any album but, because I like NY's music so much, I bought it anyway and it turned out to be absolutely brilliant, again, in my opinion.
So how do you come to terms with that.........I'm very interested to know what you think.

[benn600]

Thanks for suggesting Neil Young.  I'll check into his music!

[benn600]

I just checked BMG and they have 18 total CDs by Neil Young.  Which one would you recommend me buying to see if I like his music?  If I do, then I may just order them all.  That's a lot of CDs!  I'd say the most popular artists rarely get above 15 or so!

[jgreen]

Benn, you need to sign up for Napster.  For $10 a month, you could download all the music you want in 128-192 kbps WMA, and then go out and buy CDs of what you really like.  Try it for 7 days free, and at least figure out which neil Young you like--he's had three distinct phases (so far).

IMO, best original album:  "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere".  Best collection (and best bet):  "Decade".

[TimB]

and at least figure out which neil Young you like--he's had three distinct phases (so far).

Only three?!?!? 

-=Tim=-

[wilfredjg]

Thanks for the advice on Neil Young's cd decade. Checked it out great songs. I have a few cd by Neil Young but not this one.Glenndale is a sleeper you need to sit and listen to this one.

IMO, best original album: "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere". Best collection (and best bet): "Decade".

[BullishDad]

I purchased Neil Young's Greatest Hits recently and thought that was an excellent single CD complilation.  Under $10 at Amazon.

[sithlord0338]

I would also recommend "Deja Vu" by CSNY and "Buffalo Springfield Again" as other great albums with Neil Young contributions. Of course you can't go wrong with "Decade". I'm a Neil Young junkie so I love everything up to and including "Rust Never Sleeps" (1979). Really though, all anybody really needs are the first 6 Neil albums. My favourite album is "Time Fades Away" which sadly is not available on CD.  I hope my LP doesn't wear out.

[goodog]

The great thing about Neil Young is also the problem in that his music is so diverse you can't really pigeonhole him to any category. He does everything from out and out country and western to full on hard rock. For the rock side of things I would recommend 'Ragged Glory', 'RE-ACT-OR', and 'Freedom' (a bit more diverse but has 'Rockin' in the Free World' both acoustic and electric on it) and for a live performance, 'Weld' for a really hard rocking live album and 'Live Rust' for a more diverse one.

Finally(!!!) I would recommend that you check out 'American Stars'n'Bars' if only for the definitive (IMHO) version of 'Like a Hurricane'

I hope all this helps, I think Neil is possible the finest musician rock music has ever seen and anything I can do to spread the word, I will!!

[Fex]

Neil Young?

I thought this tread was about "Professional Albums"?

Every review has to be an experience on it's own. Otherwise Neil would'nt be mentioned here.

[lOth]

The great thing about Neil Young is also the problem in that his music is so diverse you can't really pigeonhole him to any category.

True, true. And to make the issue even worse, to most drum & bass fans, all of Neil Young sounds like some sort of folk-rock stuff. Probably in the same way most Neil Young fans would consider jungle, dance, drum & bass, etc. just a bunch of technoid gibberish (please note I said "most fans" in both cases).

You certainly can't be a professional reviewer of everything. That's one thing for sure.