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[hit_ny]

In any case, shouldn't they be thankful and glad they don't depend too much on oil today?

Certainly no middle-eastern adventures required, coupled with nuclear arms, gives them ammo to tell more powerful entities where to go.

Any reason why Iran, N.Korea, (add favourite endangered nation here) don't think the same.

[KingSparta]

InflatableMouse

I bet that handle has a story behind it.

May I Ask (If It Is Clean).

[KingSparta]

every human (terrorist or otherwise) deserves respect for the very simple fact that he/she is human.

I can not see giving anyone that kills humans by cutting of heads, body parts, Blowing people up and degrading females any respect what so ever. Or anyone who kills for no apparent reason.

Just because your human does not mean you should get respect, respect is earned.

[glynor]

I can not see giving anyone that kills humans by cutting of heads, body parts, Blowing people up and degrading females any respect what so ever. Or anyone who kills for no apparent reason.

Just because your human does not mean you should get respect, respect is earned.

King... I agree wholeheartedly.  Respect is earned.  Every human deserves to be treated with dignity.  Respect is something else.

However... Using the examples you gave... Some of our troops too deserve no respect.  We certainly also blow people up.  Our machinery of war certainly dismembers body parts and cuts off heads.  Sure... We might not use a knife to do it (at least not ourselves, sending them to Uzbekistan and paying other people to do it is a different story), but a decapitated head is a decapitated head.  War Is Not Fun.

Slipknot... You'd probably be surprised to learn that I agree with you on a lot of points.  My main issue is that the world is not made of blacks and whites.  All is shades of gray.

Pure, large-scale socialism certainly does not work.  Though the USSR never really achieved true socialism (and certainly came no where near communism), it did give it a solid try and failed.  Flaws in the theory prevent large-scale socialist "experiments" from ever succeeding (it completely discounts human nature to think of themselves first).  Likewise, pure large-scale capitalism also does not work.  Left unregulated, wealth tends to beget wealth, which over time causes wealth to accumulate in the hands of the few.  You cannot ignore the underprivileged classes and poor for too long, because there are more of them than there are of the rich (and the poor are typically the ones who make up the rank-and-file of the military).  The result is war, terrorism, and revolution.  Striking a proper balance, while protecting individual freedom and choice, is of utmost importance.

As far as feeding the hungry?

I think if we want to have a war on an idea, the best way to solve the terrorism problem would be to have a War on Poverty.  They'll always make more terrorists than we can kill.  Always.  You can buy a heck of a lot of food for the cost of even one smart bomb.

The only way to win is to convince them not to become terrorists in the first place.  I'm not suggesting we "stop them with hugs".  Some respect, understanding, and poverty relief, coupled with a huge stick (and not one that shows how weak and uninformed we really are, as a certain desert escapade has done), might go a long way.

[4BYE]

The liberals never ask this question, but I do.

AT WHOSE EXPENSE?

What you suggest cost $$$, where will those $$$ come from?

It's like I said it's easy to say afterwards but for starters this war in Iraq costs so much money. And I'm afraid that it doesn't solve the intern problems there.
It will seed more hatred against the western world too.
It takes so many lives, Americans too.

Don't talk about taxes with Dutch people  ?:

Sales tax here 19% - USA - 5-7?
Gas prices: 1 liter here - USA about 1 gallon (3,7 liters)
Cars here about twice your price...

[lOth]

respect is earned

This is true for countries as well. I don't think the U.S. is earning much respect around the world nowadays.

Or anyone who kills for no apparent reason

I think it will be very hard to find an apparent reason for each single civilian death in Iraq.

cutting of heads, body parts, Blowing people

I don't think that this is what you had in mind, but that would aptly describe what a bomb dropped on a house (civilian or not) does. I don't think many people would want me to include links to pictures of "collateral damages" here.

My point is, the U.S. can only earn respect and international support from clearly marking their differences with their attackers. A war is a war, and it's always dirty, I agree with that. And there's no clean way of waging a war, whether you respect the Geneva conventions or not. But opening a legal space for practices bordering on torture, this is a very strong and deliberate signal sent to the rest of the world. It will generate more hatred among your enemies, and raise serious doubts and fears in the minds of your allies. It doesn't earn the U.S. respect, because it doesn't say "we're fighting in the name of freedom," it generates fear because it sends the message "we're willing to sacrifice freedom to fight the enemies of freedom." Sadly, I'm not sure that that many people would actually find anything wrong with this and believe that the U.S. is better off being a feared country rather than a respected country.

[Matt]

it doesn't say "we're fighting in the name of freedom"

We're fighting because it's what we do.

Reasons for war are cheaply manufactured.

[4BYE]

this is nothing new, they have been doing this for years (before we were born)

And since it was Secret CIA flights, they could not be Secret if they told anyone. People should assume all countries spy on each other. Just as we (all governments) have done for years even past the cold war.

Maybe so but I think it's not the way to treat countries that are ally of the USA. (I hope this is the right word)

I am unclear of what rights Or laws have been violated?

Well, that is what this guy is starting this point with. Also these things going on at Guantánamo Bay have to do with human rights.

For your info Over 500 Chemical rounds have been found in Iraq. I am not sure why It surprises people saddam lied about there chemical weapons. The only problem with all of the chemical rounds was they were not new ones. They were built prior to the Golf war.

some of these rounds are the same ones we left at the ammo depot when we pulled back from the depot in 1991.?

That sure scared the USA army!

I spent 2 years guarding the DMZ, the north Koreans like to play a bunch of punk games on the DMZ (sometimes daily). Most of these things you will never hear about in the news. I am not saying they could not attack South Korea But if you knew what actually goes on North Of The Imjin River At Taesong-dong, Guard Post Collier, Guard Post Oullette, Camp Bonifas and Kichong-dong.

Noth Korea And South Korea Both Play The Games. My Guards Are Taller Than Your Gaurds. My Flag Is Bigger Than Your Flag. My Flag Is Taller Than Your Flag.

Both Of Them Black Market Across The Border With All Activities Viewed By Night Vision Cameras On The DMZ Viewable At Camp Bonifas "Mocka TOC" (A Underground Security Bunker).

North Korea Likes It When People Jump When They Do Things. This Is Why Both Democrats When they Are In Control And Republicans When They Are In Control Play These Activities Down.

Remember The Song "Games People Play", In This Case It Is Called Politicking.

I'm not judging about who is to blame but it scares me that things like this could end up in a war again. It also scares me to know a country like North Korea can have nucleair weapons and worse could sell them to people who would use it.

[4BYE]

I don't want to turn into a towering fire of libertarian rage, but... We Are Not What You Think. We Are Not The Land Of The Free.

We are the Land of the Cheap Plastic Crap from Wallmart Reflecting the Blue-Light of the TV In Our Eyes.

I hope your SUV floats.

Don't tell my Mom. We all love to shop at Wallmart

[lOth]

take the terrorists shopping at Walmart, I'm sure it will be torture to them.

[kamiller42]

take the terrorists shopping at Walmart, I'm sure it will be torture to them.

Given the low standards some people have as to what constitutes torture, you're probably right.

I'm sure if the U.S. government threatened a known terrorist with unending rides on the "It's a Small World" ride at Disney World, the ACLU would be on the case like white on rice. "Oh, the inhumanity of it all!"

[4BYE]

The liberals never ask this question, but I do.

AT WHOSE EXPENSE?

What you suggest cost $$$, where will those $$$ come from? The reality is that it will come from my taxes, confiscated from me at gunpoint by my govt. I don't see that pointing a gun to my head is "helping people", it's not helping me. Nor do I want my govt to have as it's main goal to redistribute income.

Read the 1960 Democrat party platform, OMG, they espouse total socialism and its only gotten worse since then. Read the white paper released by the pope in 1966. He says we have an obligation to turn over the result of our production to the "needy", but we never get to ask any questions about their form of govt or work ethic.

Our country started out as the most free country in the world. And over time, the statists and socialists have hacked away at our freedom. And now the democrats openly talk about the 'common good' which impliles that their def of the 'common good' overrides my freedom and my right to life liberty and the persuit of happiness. No one has any right to the results of my production without my concent, but our govt takes it from my anyway, bu force. (have no illusions, if I refuse to pay my taxes for the welfare state, the govt will show up at my front door with guns drawn).

The Republicans have sold out to the marxist theory too, but not as far as the Democrats.


If we or Bush or anyone wants to "help people" and "defeat hunger" it will not be done by giving away food or $$$, that is a never ending, ever growing "obligation".

If we promote freedom and free market govt's, then those countries will naturally create the economic environment where they will prosper. Capitalism works. Every prosperous country in the world has a fairly free society, and the poor needy countries have socialist welfare state govts. See a connection?

Although I would be considered right here in the Netherlands I guess I would vote for the democrats in the USA.

I must inform you that there are people (yes really) that don't have a chance in life. I don't believe in socialism, however capitalism alone doesn't work either. So you MUST have a social foundation that allow people to get education, giving medical treatment etc.
I DO believe you first have to earn a living but if you cannot goverment should help out.

You're talking about "every man for himself" I don't agree with that.

I hope you realize how much money from your taxes is going to warfare.

I agree that giving away food and $$$ (or €€€) doesn't work. You should give structural aid to allow people to earn money or raise crops themselves.

I realize too that in the early ages we took a lot from third world countries.

[JimH]

I'm going to close this now.

My compliments for a respectful discussion.

[lOth]

I didn't get a chance to thank all of you for participating in that thread today. I thought it was a great thread, that the discussion was civil and rather informative (I learned quite a few things).

However, going over the thread, I noticed some of you voiced some quite subversive, almost unamerican ideas, so.....

YOU'RE ON NOTICE!

Alright, I'm not trying to start the discussion again so let's lock this thread right away, it was really just a thank you note.