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Yes. Thumbs up!

Probably This could prove to be usefull

Not sure / What is the point?

No. I hate it!

[MrHaugen]

Just an idea I have for now. I'll try to make it work. But only if there are people that want to use it.

The Consept-drawing (ONLY an illustration of possible solution):

EDIT:
Older versions: Version1
GUI version 2


This are ONLY examples of styles and moods ++ that we can use. Think we still need to limit the choises a bit.
Maby there could be only one group of stuff rather than split it into Theme and Style/mood

Key features
* Choose wich mood/styles (or whatever we will call it) that fits best for your favourite songs
* Choose within a PREDEFINED set of style/moods that will ease the tagging and search (will NOT contain hundreds of different alternatives that will make it difficult to tag the tracks and to make a search with any significant hits)
* Uses FTP to transfer data to the database server. Stored together for all to use. Or individual data that are compared, and the moste used tags for each track are chosen. Much like King Spartas Data Master.
* A batch job searches for title/artist/album and return tags for any hits (will work in a similar way as King Spartas Lyric Finder)


The basic idea
A plugin wich makes you able to choose the basic characteristics of your favourite songs and share it with everyone.
Today many use genre, sub genre, style and moods etc, etc. But there are NO standards and no rules.
Most persons do not bother or have the time to tag genre etc. to each song/title. Most people use genre on each album or whole artists. That often makes smartlists with genres a bit off. We also got the fact that there are alot of disagreement on what styles fit each artist/track.

The idea is to make use of a custom field that defines the song with apropriate predefined tags chosen by YOU.
That way it will be really effective to make smartlists that fill everyday moods and needs, like slow warm music
for a cold winter evening, a normal to fast tempo party list and a slow one for the after party, or a energetic funky playlist for your own enjoyment.
With the combination of this and tags already used in MC, this could prove to be the next best thing after beer 


I have had a little discussion with Sparta and I know this COULD be done with Sparta's Data Master. But he have not planned on implementing the predefined tags. At least not yet.

I would like to do this with your help and suggestions, to make a plugin that we all can benefit from.

[Mr ChriZ]

I almost could have done my dissertation on something like that! =)

[KingSparta]

But he have not planned on implementing the predefined tags.

Predefined tags were in ID3v1 and was considered a failure due to it was a fixed list.

CDDB also used a predefined list but many people wanted to create there own so called Genres.

MJ had a predefined list, but it was opened up so MJ\MC can be more flexible.

I do not see a need for a predefined list, it would be Obsolete once it was released.

Users Can Trade Style's, Mood's Genre's With Datamaster No matter what the User Genres\Fields Are Created. This Allows For Higher Flexibility For All Users No Matter Where You Live.

Not Everyone Speaks English So In All The 300 Or So Countries They Would Be Forced To Use English. Many Wish To Use Genres In There Own Language.

It would Also Be Better To Use A CheckListBox Or A DropDown List For Your Genres To Save Space.

[MrHaugen]

I think there are a few misunderstandings here. Just have to comment those.

I almost could have done my dissertation on something like that! =)

Almost 

Predefined tags were in ID3v1 and was considered a failure due to it was a fixed list.

One failure doesnt mean it can't work the next time.

CDDB also used a predefined list but many people wanted to create there own so called Genres.

Yes. But this would be something else. NOT genre. I use genre and sub genre, and would not replace that for the life of me. 
Instead it would be somthing that describes the setting the most people would listen to that spesific music in. Like some Fugees and Creedens Clearwater at the summer barbeque. Or some club,heavy beat kickass music that the half naked ladies can go wild to at your party. It wold coexist nicly with genres! And make some powerfull smartlists.

MJ had a predefined list, but it was opened up so MJ\MC can be more flexible.

Predefined list of what? Genre? Not suprised it did not work out. You got so nuts many of them.
My point is to make a list of occasion related standards that the most people can use in normal settings. This will be an alternative, not something you HAVE to use.

I do not see a need for a predefined list, it would be Obsolete once it was released.

You don't need it, but I certainly do... Why it would go obsolete once it was realeased, I have no idea.

If I make this in 2 months. There will not be possible to tag songs with categories like cheerfull, acoustic, frentic, angry, soothing? Just to mention a few. I really don't undestand that.

Users Can Trade Style's, Mood's Genre's With Datamaster No matter what the User Genres\Fields Are Created. This Allows For Higher Flexibility For All Users No Matter Where You Live.

Offcourse. And I love that. This would just be an addition to your work. The problem with this high flexibility is that you wil have so many choises that there are bound to be chaos.
Like with genre today. I guess you could find 500 different genres without any problem. The problem first comes when you try to share this. Some would use Rock for Nine Inch Nails, while I would use Industrial Rock. The genre are SO user spesific.

Not Everyone Speaks English So In All The 300 Or So Countries They Would Be Forced To Use English. Many Wish To Use Genres In There Own Language.

I know that. And they have the option to not use the plugin. There is the possibility to make it in more languages too... But again I want to point out that I do NOT want a plugin for genre.

It would Also Be Better To Use A CheckListBox Or A DropDown List For Your Genres To Save Space.

Yes. A CheckListBox would be better. As I said, this is just an illustration

[KingSparta]

I did not mean to

Maybe others Can Share There

Moods, Styles etc...

To see what you should have as A Minimum, or ones you have not thought of.

I was thinking, could you not use the MC BPS analyze for Speed\Beat? and this could be set for you to a word that equates the speed?

[MrHaugen]

Maybe others Can Share There

Moods, Styles etc...

Yes. That was what I was hoping for. But I'm not gonna use a field that overwrites stuff like styles, mood or other things people might use. It will only be an option people can have in addition to other stuff. 

To see what you should have as A Minimum, or ones you have not thought of.

Not exactly sure what you mean.
No, I have not thought through what elements there should be as a minimum. Not minimum or maximum number eiter. For that we need som kind of brainstorm to cover the most used ones. But I guess around 30-40.
If there are more it will suddenly be hard to keep track I think.

I was thinking, could you not use the MC BPS analyze for Speed\Beat? and this could be set for you to a word that equates the speed?

As to the audio analyzer, there are some downsides. In many song it will be correct and others not. But even if the analyzer are correct, there are many times that the real beat feel is quite different form the actual bpm.
That was my point. But it might be less necessary...

[johnnyboy]

I like this idea alot.

This would be alot of use to me. Alot of the time I just want my music broken down into this type of basic grouping:

Party Music
Easy Listening
Relaxing
Romantic


etc. I dont want a ton of choices for options because otherwise as you point out, it'll defeat the whole purpose.

[MrHaugen]

I dont want a ton of choices for options because otherwise as you point out, it'll defeat the whole purpose.

Finally someone that understand what I'm trying to do 
I'm not trying to save the world. I'm just trying to get a common solution. A way that makes us able make hours of music, with a few click, that fits the apropriat occasion.

[hit_ny]

The idea is nice but i'm wondering about the actual use of it.

I use sub-genre instead of genre for music i'm familiar with, styles & moods is increasing the level of granularity here. If you look at the styles/moods in AMG, there are many defined just for an album.

To take that a step further and do it on a track level basis ?

I don't know how i would even begin to categorise my music that way.

There is lot of music in the lounge genre or sub-genre that is genre bending, to get the styles/moods for each track, heh...would require some very good perception.

Maybe if you could post some examples of well-known music and show the styles/moods you have picked for it, then maybe we get a better idea.

[Mr ChriZ]

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=28570.0

That was before I'd had a go at making plugins

[MrHaugen]

I use sub-genre instead of genre for music i'm familiar with, styles & moods is increasing the level of granularity here. If you look at the styles/moods in AMG, there are many defined just for an album.

To take that a step further and do it on a track level basis ?

Exactly. Yes, the level of granularity will increase. I do not think we can get past todays point without doing that.
I use genre and sub genre my self. In my opinion those are only for putting an artist or an album in a "box". To easily find artists and albums that are similare in some ways.

AMG's styles are good, but they are defined per album. And as we all know, there are often alot of different tracks in each album. That is a problem when you want music that play well together.

Another problem is that AMG uses so friggin many styles. When you got to many there will be problems.

I don't know how i would even begin to categorise my music that way.

My idea is not to use this to categorise your music.
It's ment as a way to easily find music that sounds good together and can be related to different occasions.
I'm sure you could use it to categorise your music, but that is not the purpose.
I think genre and sub genre would still be the best way of doing that. And it will be even more powerfull if you include that in your smartlist search too.

There is lot of music in the lounge genre or sub-genre that is genre bending, to get the styles/moods for each track, heh...would require some very good perception.

Agian, this is something different than genre.

Maybe if you could post some examples of well-known music and show the styles/moods you have picked for it, then maybe we get a better idea.

Ok, I'll give you a few examples of possibe style/mood/themes:

Massive Attack - TearDrop
* Druggy                (Mood/Theme)
* Relaxation            (Theme)
* Sensual               (Style)
* Electric                (Instruments)
* Downbeat            (Beat Feel)
* Late Night            (Theme)

Rage Against The Machine - Killing in The Name
* Angry                   (Mood)
* Agressive              (Style)
* Energetic              (Style)
* Electric                 (Instruments)
* Intense                 (Style)
* Normal beat           (Beat Feel)

Armand Van Helden - My My My
* DJ/Mix                   (Instruments)
* Club/Dance            (Theme)
* Party                    (Theme)
* Energetic               (Style)
* Normal beat           (Beat Feel)

This are just examples. We have to discuss what actual style/mood/themes we are to use.

[jgreen]

Haugen--

I'm glad that you are attempting this.  I'm not sure whether this is so much a plugin as an approach, but in either case I think it only compliment's Sparta's Data Master plugin, which I hope everyone here is contributing to.  Sparta's approach is reactive--let the statistical weight of contributed data form the eventual hierarchy.  Yours is more proactive--let's come up with a simple, LIMITED set of steps for codifying our impressions of tracks. 

I think this is great, but I think you're off to a rocky start.  If this is going to be of value, your basic modifiers must be as objective as possible.  Don't start off with things like "mood" or "style", which mean different things to different people.  Rather, make your "gateway" (left-side) modifiers things most people would agree on when listening to the same track:  "fast/slow" or "acoustic/electric" or "vocal/instrumental".  I would order it thus:

(Step 1)                   (Step 2)           (Step 3)        (Step 4,5, . . .,99)

__Instrumental        __Acoustic       __Slow

__Vocal                    __Electric         __Medium
 
                                                        __Fast 



As you progress from left to right, things can get more subjective.  While "production" is fairly objective and ought to be near the start, "style" is much more subjective, and "ocation (occassion?)" is probably going to hug the right edge, as people will associate different music with different occassions.  Sparta, for example, recommended "Don't Fear The Reaper" as a wedding song. 

But as much as possible, try to order your modifiers of like type.  In some of your example menus you seem to be comparing apples and orangutangs.  "Heavy bass" is not a speed, and "vocal" and "instrumental" are not production values, and "electric" and "computer" are the same darn thing, at least in terms of production.  As styles or moods, they might be more distinct.

Good luck with this.  Ultimately, I think King's approach will yield the most useful results sooner.  In a perfect world, you could nest your eventual results into his database and the effect would be to multiply the utilty.   

[hit_ny]

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=28570.0

That was before I'd had a go at making plugins

They have changed their name to MusicIP

Their API deals mostly with making fingerprints to send back to the mother ship. The actual mixing part i think is not yet open and only usable from thier standalone player. It only works when used to identify full songs, no mixed in stuff or mashups, as their approach won't work for incomplete music.

Sending fingerprints is all well & fine but it would be better if we could use it to make mixes in MC as well. Me thinks this might require more colloboration between JRiver & MusicIP, something that may or may not interest JRiver (who already got an internal (only) fingerprinting thingy). MusicIP has open sourced thier fingerprint tech on at least 3 platforms to date, so chances are it might pickup more traction.

If this is going to be of value, your basic modifiers must be as objective as possible.

Sounds reasonable, i've wished for a long time i did a custom field that got filled when listening to vocal or instrumental music. The speed part is also a good idea, easy tempo value to pick, something a smartlist that defines BPM ranges could pick up easily.

The step2 is maybe more useful if you have lots of rock/country stuff instead of electronic, trying to think of an electronic equivalent but drawing a blank here.

[MrHaugen]

jgreen:

I agree with you on many things. But please don't think to much of the example picture. Some of the things are a bit off. I will post a better one later when I have sorted out my own thoughts. It's just there to give you the basic idea.

As for the Data Master, I think it will give to many results (as to mood/style etc..). And that will make it hard to work with. There will not be a common field. Some will call it Style, Styles, Mood, Moods, Themes, Theme. I think it will be messy.

As you say, it is a bit hard to get objective results. And that is why it is important to use style/moods/themes that are easy to assosiate with each track. And it is also important that the taggers think objectively. Most people know when they have wierd association with particular music. I often play Nirvana when I want to relax, but it is probably not the most normal occasion to listen to it. And that's why I would not categorise it as Relaxation or chillout.
Another possibility is to find the most used things out of several user inputs.

Your "gatway" idea is not dumb at all. I will think about how this can be used in the best way.

[MrHaugen]

Please post a list of what you think could be used for style/mood/theme.
I'll gather them, and we'll sort out wich ones to use later.

[jgreen]

So my basic input is to lay out a bunch of question/answer columns, starting very "objective" on the left, and getting more "subjective" as you move to the right.  Also, I would try for 2 or 3 answer choices.  For example:  "happy" vs "sad", without muddying it up with other choices like "pensive" or "anxious".  So I think "mood" isn't just 1 question, it's a bunch of questions, kind of like this:

(step 17)        (step 18)           (step 19)

__happy          __calm              __frenetic

__sad              __anxious         __sedate



In this way, you could have 1 track that was "sad", "anxious" and "frenetic" all at once, which is how I would answer for "Smells Like Teen Spirit" by You-Know-Who.

[MrHaugen]

I hear you.
We have to keep in mind that this should not be a super time consuming process.
Or else no one would bother doing it. This is probably only something that people only would do for their favourite songs. But still...

The Mood/theme list from AMG contains about 260 different ones 
Will take some work to pick the right ones. I'll post a suggestion later.

[hit_ny]

Discogs has a Style Guide for Electronic, Hip Hop, Jazz and Rock

..still ongoing

[MrHaugen]

Discogs has a Style Guide for Electronic, Hip Hop, Jazz and Rock

..still ongoing

I had a look at it. But far from complete and correct imo.

Christ. This list will take some more effort that I originaly thought.
This list is FAR from correct in any way, and FAR bigger that it need to be. And it would be nearly impossible to put songs in some of the categories.... Some of them are not grouped correctly either, I know.
Down from 260 to 59. But still a long way to go. I'm going blind of this, and need some help.

EDIT:
(Under construction) Down to 42

Themes: +Drinking +Party/Celebration Girls Night Out/Guys Night Out +AfterParty +Club +Workout Slow Dance Late Night Early Morning/Monday Morning +Ambiance Background Music/Dinner Affection/In Love/New Love +Romantic Evening +Sexy +Solitude/Heartache +Playful +Relaxation Reminiscing The Great Outdoors

Styles: +Party/Celebratory +Soft/Smooth/Laid-Back/Mellow/Relaxed +Romantic/Sensual +Sexy/Sexual +Warm/Light +Happy/Joyful/Carefree +Playfull/Quirky/Silly +Thuggish/Hostile/Angry +Menacing/Fierce/Crazy Spacey +Druggy +Energetic/Fiery +Sad/Sentimental/Melancholy Atmospheric Eccentric/Wry Autumnal/Springlike/Summery/Wintry Sparse/Bleak +Funky Production & Sound Feel Aucoustic Electric Vocal Instrumental Mellow/Normal/Intense Light/Normal/Heavy Bass

Things I feel can be left out (to be deleted): Themes: -At the Beach/At the Office -Cool & Cocky -Homecoming/Reunion -Day Driving/Night Driving/Road Trip -Hanging Out -Prom/Wedding -Scary Music -School -Vacation -Victory -Birthday Party -The Sporting Life -Holidays/New Years/Christmas -Long Walk/Rainy Day -Spring/Summertime/Autumn/Winter -Sweet Dreams -With the Family Styles: -Yearning/Wishful -Nocturnal -Cold -Complex/Stylish/Elegant/Sophisticated/Sleazy

Fields with + are stuff that I think is important to include and - could be excluded.
Many of these categories can probably be combined..
And we might be able to manage with only styles or moods, because most of it are reflected on the other categori...

There are some thing here that we can easily delete. Just come with suggestions, replacement names for theme or style groups. Or what you think should be deleted.