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[Magic_Randy]

In 12.0.115 you temporarily removed gapless playback because MP3's were not playing back on iPods. This is fine, but I have a question. 

I have a couple 5th generation 60gb iPods that are full.  I keep changing what's on them as there is not room for the whole library, but even at that I can fit about 13,000 tracks.  I've not done a full sync in a long time, so the tracks on the iPod were synced from multiple MC12 versions.

If I understand correctly, I should really clear the iPods and do another full sync to make sure everything on them is playable.  I have noticed that some tracks will not play, others will, and I'm assuming this is the reason for it.

Am I understanding correctly?

Thanks...

[lalittle]

If I understand correctly, I should really clear the iPods and do another full sync to make sure everything on them is playable.  I have noticed that some tracks will not play, others will, and I'm assuming this is the reason for it.

Am I understanding correctly?

Thanks...

I believe that in theory you are correct, but unfortunately, in this particular case, build 115 seems to have broken the playback of VBR mp3s on the iPod.  I did a full initialize and sync, and none of my VBR mp3s will play on the iPod.  Only my CBR mp3s and my Audible files play at this point.

Note also that when I initialized the iPod, neither of the "Sync" buttons would work anymore.  Hitting them simply made the AW "handheld" window blink.  I had to close and re-start MC in order for the sync to work, after which, once again, none of the VBR mp3s played anymore.

Larry

[Magic_Randy]

I initialized the iPod and did a full sync based on 12.0.115.  It looks like everything is working OK now.

[lalittle]

I initialized the iPod and did a full sync based on 12.0.115.  It looks like everything is working OK now.

NOT for me -- not with 115 OR 116.  First, after an initialize, my mp4 files are listed as "file not compatible" in the iPod list, and the sync won't start when I hit the "Sync" button.  If I exit MC and restart it, the same mp4 files are now listed as "In Queue" and the sync takes place, but after it's done, none of my VBR mp3s will play on the iPod.  My CBR mp3s and my Audible files will play, but I cannot change position in the tracks -- if I try, the track simply starts over.

Are you using VBR mp3s?  What kind of iPod is it (I'm using a 5G.)

Based on one of your other posts, I got the impression that 115 was not working for you.  Did I misunderstand -- have you tested playback and re-positioning on the iPod yet?  Ever since 115, iPod functionality has been completely malfunctioning for me.

Thanks for any feedback on this,

Larry

[Magic_Randy]

Based on one of your other posts, I got the impression that 115 was not working for you.  Did I misunderstand -- have you tested playback and re-positioning on the iPod yet?  Ever since 115, iPod functionality has been completely malfunctioning for me.

I have 2 5th generation 60gb iPods.  Both have system software version 1.2. 

My collection won't fit, plus I'm always adding to the collection, so I do a lot of incremental syncs.  These have occurred using many versions of MC12.

I had some tracks that played fine on the iPod (most of the ones I tried) but some would not play back at all.  I assumed this was related to gapless playback that JR temporarily removed. 

So I initialized one of the iPods and did a full sync using 12.0.115.  After the sync, I tested the playback and everything appears fine.  I did random testing plus tested some of the tracks that were creating issues before.  I confirmed that I can both play and reposition (fast forward) within the tracks.

I've also have NOT seen the problem you describe about the sync buttons.

The main difference from you that I see is all of my tracks are CBR MP3 files.  It looks like you are having the problem on VBR MP3s.  I have no MP4s on the iPod.

As I'm having more luck then you, I would be happy to test something for you if you have an ideas of what will narrow down your problem.

Randy

 

[Magic_Randy]

Larry,

I just did more testing on the repositioning.  It is NOT working.  My prior test was with a random song and it looked like it was working, but all it did was restart the song.

Randy

[Magic_Randy]

Larry,

I'm going backwards.  I just did a full sync on a second iPod using 12.0.116.  Took over 5 hours.

Nothing will play on the iPod. ?

I'll update the iPod and start over to verify if it is 12.0.116.

[Magic_Randy]

Larry,

I restored the iPod and did another sycn using 12.0.116.  While the sync appears to work, nothing will play on the iPod.

I dropped back to 12.0.115.  I initialized the iPod and did another small sync.  Everything now plays fine.  The only issue is that the fast forward/reposition does not work.

I'll post the issue on the 12.0.116 thread.

Randy

[lalittle]

Randy,

Thanks for doing all those tests and posting the details.  I was thinking that perhaps you might not have noticed the positioning "issue" since this is not something that one would necessarily think of testing.  I'm glad that you were able to confirm this issue.

Regarding the other issues I'm seeing, I verified that VBR mp3s are particularly problematic -- my CBR mp3s play, but as you noticed, they cannot be re-positioned.

The problem with the "Sync" button not working is related to having mp4s in the sync.  When I exclude these from the sync, I do NOT get this problem -- i.e. the sync will start normally after the initialize (although the other problems remain when the sync is done.)  If I re-include the mp4s in the sync and re-initialize, they will be listed as "File not supported" in the sync list, and the "Sync" button will not work until AFTER I restart MC.  After an MC restart, they'll be "In Queue" and the sync will start normally, but all the other problems once again remain after the sync.

Thanks again for all your feedback here -- it REALLY helps to have someone else confirming these issues for JR.

Larry

[Magic_Randy]

Larry,

Try it now.  12.0.117 fixed the problems I was having.  I cannot test the VBR or MP4 issues.

At least for CBR MP3s the playback is fine.  Also, the fast forward/reposition issues are corrected.

Randy

[lalittle]

Larry,

Try it now.  12.0.117 fixed the problems I was having.  I cannot test the VBR or MP4 issues.

At least for CBR MP3s the playback is fine.  Also, the fast forward/reposition issues are corrected.

Randy

I did an initialize and am doing a sync right now (which says it will be another 5.5 hours before it's done.)  I can confirm, however, that the mp4 problems are gone -- the mp4s now appear as "In Queue" directly after the initialize, and the sync button works WITHOUT having to restart MC.

I'll test the other issues on my iPod (VBR playback, repositioning) after the sync is done.

Thanks,

Larry

[lalittle]

So now that the recent issues with the iPod appear to be fixed (pending my tests for which I have the highest hopes for success) does anyone at JR have any updates to the whole gapless iPod playback issue?  Did anyone ever get a chance to look over the files that were sent by coolblue to see if they revealed the source of the problem?

Thanks for any updates on this,

Larry

[something fishy]

12.0.117 is still broken for me. VBR MP3 files will not play. Sometimes the first track I try will play but when it rolls to the second it stops.

This is with VBR MP3 files (Lame 3.97 -preset-fast-extreme converted from WMA lossless using MC11) and a Gen 5.5 80Gb ipod running firmware 1.2.

BTW when it's fixed should MC12 give me reliable gapless playback with this without re-converting all the files? Winamp 5.31, which supposedly supports gapless ipods, doesn't. I really don't like itunes (why does it take so long to work out what has to sync???) and would prefer not to switch to aac.

[Matt]

12.0.117 is still broken for me. VBR MP3 files will not play. Sometimes the first track I try will play but when it rolls to the second it stops.

This is with VBR MP3 files (Lame 3.97 -preset-fast-extreme converted from WMA lossless using MC11) and a Gen 5.5 80Gb ipod running firmware 1.2.

BTW when it's fixed should MC12 give me reliable gapless playback with this without re-converting all the files? Winamp 5.31, which supposedly supports gapless ipods, doesn't. I really don't like itunes (why does it take so long to work out what has to sync???) and would prefer not to switch to aac.

Please email one of the files that won't play to rick at jriver dot com. (for testing, we'll erase it as soon as we're done)

Thanks!

[lalittle]

BTW when it's fixed should MC12 give me reliable gapless playback with this without re-converting all the files? Winamp 5.31, which supposedly supports gapless ipods, doesn't. I really don't like itunes (why does it take so long to work out what has to sync???) and would prefer not to switch to aac.

Are you asking if MC's iPod cache will make the need for re-converting unecessary when you do a sync?  If so, I would think so -- that's what the cache is there for.  At the moment, however, MC does not yet support gapless playback on the iPod.  It was attempted, but there were some issues with pops and small pieces of songs missing at the transitions, so this support was removed for the time being.  JR has said they will work on this, and I'm fairly confident they'll get it working.

That said, once MC does support the gapless iPod feature, it should keep all the conversions in the handheld cache so they don't need to be re-converted.

Did that answer your question?

Larry

[something fishy]

Are you asking if MC's iPod cache will make the need for re-converting unecessary when you do a sync?  If so, I would think so -- that's what the cache is there for.  At the moment, however, MC does not yet support gapless playback on the iPod.  It was attempted, but there were some issues with pops and small pieces of songs missing at the transitions, so this support was removed for the time being.  JR has said they will work on this, and I'm fairly confident they'll get it working.

I only tried MC12 for the first time yesterday so I'm unfamiliar with the cache. I assume it stores files converted on the fly from a master (in my case lossless) library. I've been using MC11 up until now so I have a complete shadow MP3 library (it appears as handheld device in MC11 so I can just sync it).

I've been using MC11 to manage music with my gen4 ipod. When I got my shiny new Gen 5.5 ipod (birthday present) I went looking for ways to load gapless audio onto it without having to suffer the interminable delay that is itunes.

What I mean is does the ipod (and therefore MC12) work with the gapless metadata in a Lame encoded MP3 (I've received conflicting opinions on this)?

[Magic_Randy]

Larry,

I decided to try some additional testing based on the compression type.  I thought I only had CBR, but I did find some other things and tested all combinations.

In the Compression Tag I have 5 values:

Empty Tag = these play OK
CBR MPEG-1 Layer 2 = these won't play, they just skip to the next track
CBR MPEG-1 Layer 3 = these play OK
CBR MPEG-2 Layer 3 = these play OK
VBR MPEG-1 Layer 3 = these play OK

When I say they play OK, I tested the playback on the iPod including the fast forward/reposition.

The majority of all my tracks are CBR MPEG-1 Layer 3.  These I ripped myself.

The second most common one are the ones with an empty tag.  These I also ripped.  Any idea why these would have a empty tag?

Randy

[lalittle]

The second most common one are the ones with an empty tag.  These I also ripped.  Any idea why these would have a empty tag?

Randy

Thanks for the extra testing.

On my system, the ONLY files that have a value in the "compression" tag are ones that I did NOT rip with MC, along with a SINGLE album that I ripped in MC several days ago.  ALL of the files I ripped in MC other than this ONE album have an empty "compression" tag.  It would appear that until recently, MC did not fill in this tag when ripping.

I also did some testing, and while I confirmed that the repositioning issue is no longer happening and VBR songs will play, I discovered that the "broken" iPod gapless support is back.  Transitions in gapless songs either produce a pop, or they clip a tiny bit of the song out, producing a little "jump" at the transition that is quite noticeable if there is a consistant beat across the seam.  I'm hoping they look into this soon, since it's a fairly important problem for someone like myself who listens to a lot of gapless albums.

Thanks,

Larry

[lalittle]

12.0.117 is still broken for me. VBR MP3 files will not play. Sometimes the first track I try will play but when it rolls to the second it stops.

That's interesting.  I just tried 117 and VBR mp3s are once again working for me.  Did you do an MC initialize before the sync?

That said, the gapless iPod playback is still broken.

What I mean is does the ipod (and therefore MC12) work with the gapless metadata in a Lame encoded MP3 (I've received conflicting opinions on this)?

There are two parts to the answer.  First, MC12 DOES currently utilize the LAME metadata and PLAYS these files without gaps just as you'd hear on the CD.  iPod synching is a seperate question.  The iPod firmware recently added gaplelss capability, but at the moment, it does not work with MC12 syncs.  With MC12 syncs on the iPod, there is either a pop or a slight "jump" (i.e. a tiny part of the song is cut off) at the transitions between gapless songs.  JR said they are looking into this and will hopefully fix it soon.  Once they fix the gapless playback issues, the answer to your question will be "Yes."

Just out of curiosity, what are the "conflicting opinions" you've heard on this?  This isn't really a subject where "opinion" has a bearing, and in my reading there is consensus on the situation -- i.e. that gapless playback on the iPod "can" work, but at the moment there are some bugs with MC12 syncs.

Note that another option for the time being is to use the Rockbox firmware on the iPod, which DOES play LAME encoded mp3s perfectly gaplessly.  You can search this forum for more info on this if you're interested.

Larry

[Alex B]

What I mean is does the ipod (and therefore MC12) work with the gapless metadata in a Lame encoded MP3 (I've received conflicting opinions on this)?

LAME encoder has added metadata for gapless playback aware decoders since the version 3.90 (unless LAME header writing is disabled with a LAME command line switch).

MC11.1 and newer adjust the decoded output correctly and can play LAME encoded files gaplessly.

Apple introduced a system that can read this info from LAME header and convert it to Apple's new proprietary format a couple of months ago in iTunes 7. iTunes 7 does this automatically on file import.

When iTunes syncs an iPod it writes that info to iPod's internal database file. An iPod can use this info for gapless decoding.

If I have understood this correctly, JRiver is now trying to find the correct parameters for converting the LAME header info to Apple's proprietary format. I suppose Apple has not published specs for this, so the task may be difficult.

[Magic_Randy]

On my system, the ONLY files that have a value in the "compression" tag are ones that I did NOT rip with MC, along with a SINGLE album that I ripped in MC several days ago.  ALL of the files I ripped in MC other than this ONE album have an empty "compression" tag.  It would appear that until recently, MC did not fill in this tag when ripping.

Larry,

I'm wondering what you look at to tell you have a CBR or VBR track? 

I thought there was a tag, which is why I looked for and found the compression tag so I could do more testing.  If this is mostly empty on your system, I assume you are looking at something else, but I cannot find it.

Randy

[Alex B]

I'm wondering what you look at to tell you have a CBR or VBR track?

AW > Tag > Format  (You can click it for seeing the expanded format info window.)

[lalittle]

Larry,

I'm wondering what you look at to tell you have a CBR or VBR track? 

I thought there was a tag, which is why I looked for and found the compression tag so I could do more testing.  If this is mostly empty on your system, I assume you are looking at something else, but I cannot find it.

Randy

What Alex posted makes more sense, but I was simply looking at the bitrate column.  With CBR files, all the files in the album will show the same bitrate, and it will be one of the common ones -- i.e. "160," for example.  With VBR rips, all the files in the album will have different bitrates, and they'll be uncommon values like "203."

That said, they apparently fixed the "Compression" tag with 117.  For files that are missing this tag, you need to do an "Update Library (from tags)" to get the tag to be filled in.

Larry

[Magic_Randy]

AW > Tag > Format  (You can click it for seeing the expanded format info window.)

Alex,

Thanks...

It looks like Format is a calculated value, not a specific tag, but it does show everything.  Now they have fixed the Compression tag, so I think that is a good way to see it in views or capture it in smartlists.


Randy

[Magic_Randy]

I was simply looking at the bitrate column.  With CBR files, all the files in the album will show the same bitrate, and it will be one of the common ones -- i.e. "160," for example.  With VBR rips, all the files in the album will have different bitrates, and they'll be uncommon values like "203."

Larry,

That is what I used to do, but I thought you had a precise way, that is why I looked for the tag that you must have been using.  But I think as a result, they have now fixed updating the compression tag when you rip a CD.  I've updated my library and will test this specifically when I rip my next CD.

BTW - I forgot that I had any VBR files until I did this search.  I only have 31 in total.

Randy

[something fishy]

LAME encoder has added metadata for gapless playback aware decoders since the version 3.90 (unless LAME header writing is disabled with a LAME command line switch).

MC11.1 and newer adjust the decoded output correctly and can play LAME encoded files gaplessly.

Apple introduced a system that can read this info from LAME header and convert it to Apple's new proprietary format a couple of months ago in iTunes 7. iTunes 7 does this automatically on file import.

When iTunes syncs an iPod it writes that info to iPod's internal database file. An iPod can use this info for gapless decoding.

If I have understood this correctly, JRiver is now trying to find the correct parameters for converting the LAME header info to Apple's proprietary format. I suppose Apple has not published specs for this, so the task may be difficult.

Thankyou. So an ipod doesn't read either the header or the ID3 tags at all. It gets all its information from a database file. For gapless playback this includes the necessary timing data for gapless playback.

Therefore I can manage my master library with MC and use it to create a shadow MP3 library but until MC12 reverse engineers the information that itunes 7 is writing to the ipod database I will have to use itunes to do the sync between my MP3 library and the ipod if I want gapless.

[Matt]

With 117 and later, gapless playback should be working with the iPod when syncing with MC.  There's no need to use iTunes.

You'll need a supported iPod (with new enough firmware) and LAME files that have gapless information in their header.

[lalittle]

With 117 and later, gapless playback should be working with the iPod when syncing with MC.  There's no need to use iTunes.

You'll need a supported iPod (with new enough firmware) and LAME files that have gapless information in their header.

It's still not working correctly.  It's true that the "gap" is gone (as it was before), but the exact same issues remain -- i.e. there is either a slight "pop" at the transition, or a small "jump" caused a tiny piece of the song being cut out.  It's not something you'd hear with transitions that take place during crowd noise in a live concert, but if the beat continues across the seam, you can hear that it skips forward just a tiny bit at the seam.  Try listenning to something like Pink Floyd ("Happiest Days of Our Lives" to "Another Brick...(part 2)") to hear what I'm talking about.  It is NOT a clean transition -- there is no "gap," but there is tiny piece of audio clipped out, creating a slight jump forward at the seam.

According to other reports in this forum, this is ONLY an issue when MC is in the loop -- i.e. the same issue does not happen with synching with iTunes.

Please see the previous thread for more info on this.

Note that I am using a 5G iPod with the latest firmware, so the hardware and firmware are capable of this -- the problem is on the MC side.

Thanks,

Larry

[Matt]

Please send two files that won't play gapless on the iPod that you think should to matt at jriver dot com.

Thanks.

[lalittle]

Please send two files that won't play gapless on the iPod that you think should to matt at jriver dot com.

Thanks.

Will do Matt.  Thanks for looking into this.

Larry

[lalittle]

Okay Matt, the files have been sent -- 3 songs in 3 emails.  The first set of emails appears to have been stopped by the server -- something about the mime settings.  I changed the settings, however, and tried again.  I have not received any emails saying they didn't go through, so it looks good from this end.  If you could let me know if they got to you, however, it would help.  (Please post in this thread so I can see it from wherever I am.)  Please let me know if you didn't get them and I'll figure out some other way to get them to you.

Assuming it worked this time, I sent you 3 songs in 3 emails -- these 3 play in succession without gaps (i.e. there are two transitions you can test.)  Note that if you are unfamiliar with the songs, you may want to listen to the tracks in MC to hear how they SHOULD sound, at which point it may be more clear how the iPod is clipping a small portion of the song at the transition.

Please let me know if the files reveal anything, or if there is anything else I can do to help troubleshoot this issue.

Thanks,

Larry