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Author Topic: Theater View and other questions  (Read 4218 times)

mhakman

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Theater View and other questions
« on: June 17, 2007, 01:13:45 pm »

I have some questions/observations concerning this new version.

1. Arrow keys/buttons still do not work in DVD submenus. Also, no choice is selected when entering a submenu. When displayed, DVD Navigator window contains only 1 tab entitled “DVDNav” (it has 4 tabs when displayed in e.g. GraphEdit). Buttons on this tab work only on main menu but not on submenus.  Keys/buttons work ok when playing the same DVD in e.g. InterVideo WinDVD player.

2. Is it possible to get the “old” Enter/OK key/button behavior in Theater View? The “old” behavior was that Enter drills down when on a list item representing a group of things. The new behavior is that Enter displays a (confusing) popup menu.

3. How do I play a single track in Theater View? Previously I could use CTRL-P when on a track. Now CTRL-P adds all tracks on the list to playing queue.

4. In Theater View, can I somehow get Enter/OK on a track to play this track without popping up a menu? Note also that in the new version, Play item on this menu adds all tracks to Playing now.

5. In Theater View, can I get the same behavior of Backspace button in Display view (which logically is the bottom of drill-down hierarchy) as it has on levels above – it goes up one level (rolls up) on all other screens except Display View. Currently I have to press Enter in Display view to go back.

6. Can I remove the menu on the left in Theater View? And then have a special shortcut to popup this menu when required?

7. Where can I find a description (syntax and semantics) of xml-file that controls Theater View?

8. Are there other symbols, besides NAME, ALBUM, ARTIST, and YEAR that could be used in Track Info templates? In particular, the length (in minutes and seconds) of the track, current playing position (also in minutes and seconds and updated periodically), file type (MP3 etc), comments would be appreciated.

9.  Is it possible to scale cover images in Theater View’s Playing Now screen and Playing Now menu item so that whole image is shown? Currently I see only a part of a larger cover image which isn’t particularly aesthetic.

Thank you
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raym

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2007, 06:51:16 pm »

1. Arrow keys/buttons still do not work in DVD submenus. Also, no choice is selected when entering a submenu. When displayed, DVD Navigator window contains only 1 tab entitled “DVDNav” (it has 4 tabs when displayed in e.g. GraphEdit). Buttons on this tab work only on main menu but not on submenus.  Keys/buttons work ok when playing the same DVD in e.g. InterVideo WinDVD player.

Others have reported this also. I believe it's being investigated.

2. Is it possible to get the “old” Enter/OK key/button behavior in Theater View? The “old” behavior was that Enter drills down when on a list item representing a group of things. The new behavior is that Enter displays a (confusing) popup menu.

Not currently. Enter again on the menu to drill down. Better still... Switch to the "Lineup" view (hit the "Views" button to select this) and use left/right arrows to navigate.

3. How do I play a single track in Theater View? Previously I could use CTRL-P when on a track. Now CTRL-P adds all tracks on the list to playing queue.

Enter on an item (to bring up menu) and select "Play". Ctrl+P (or "Play All") adds all tracks.

4. In Theater View, can I somehow get Enter/OK on a track to play this track without popping up a menu? Note also that in the new version, Play item on this menu adds all tracks to Playing now.

No. You need the menu for this....Choose the "Play" item to just play a single track.

5. In Theater View, can I get the same behavior of Backspace button in Display view (which logically is the bottom of drill-down hierarchy) as it has on levels above – it goes up one level (rolls up) on all other screens except Display View. Currently I have to press Enter in Display view to go back.

Nice idea. Backspace (for consistency) should take you back to Theater View.

6. Can I remove the menu on the left in Theater View? And then have a special shortcut to popup this menu when required?

You can remove the menu on the left thru the skin's layout (xml). No shortcut available though to bring up the menu unfortunately. It's either there or it's not.

7. Where can I find a description (syntax and semantics) of xml-file that controls Theater View?

The syntax has changed recently and is still changing. A formal "document" doesn't yet exist as far as I'm aware. Your best bet would be to "code by example".

8. Are there other symbols, besides NAME, ALBUM, ARTIST, and YEAR that could be used in Track Info templates? In particular, the length (in minutes and seconds) of the track, current playing position (also in minutes and seconds and updated periodically), file type (MP3 etc), comments would be appreciated.

I'm not sure but I don't think so. You may want to explore "visualisation studio" for this stuff. Check this out: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=39062.0

9.  Is it possible to scale cover images in Theater View’s Playing Now screen and Playing Now menu item so that whole image is shown? Currently I see only a part of a larger cover image which isn’t particularly aesthetic.

Don't think so. Again, the above link to a suitable visualisation may solve this issue for you though.

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mojave

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2007, 10:36:20 pm »

9.  Is it possible to scale cover images in Theater View’s Playing Now screen and Playing Now menu item so that whole image is shown? Currently I see only a part of a larger cover image which isn’t particularly aesthetic.
Right click the the cover art image in Playing Now or the Playing Now menu item and select "Show Cover Art When Small."
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Osho

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2007, 01:10:18 am »

2. Is it possible to get the “old” Enter/OK key/button behavior in Theater View? The “old” behavior was that Enter drills down when on a list item representing a group of things. The new behavior is that Enter displays a (confusing) popup menu.

I have asked this many times since the change to the Enter/OK key/button behavior in Theater view. This makes the thumbnail view browsing much more painful. I have asked to revert this behavior to the original one many times. Or at least, provide an option to do so. First rule of good GUI design: no choices (via pop-up menus or other ways) in default user interaction - the default choice should be what 80% of novice users would want.


6. Can I remove the menu on the left in Theater View? And then have a special shortcut to popup this menu when required?

I have asked for something like this previously :). See threads on theater view navigation where removal of the menu on the left was discussed first.

Osho
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2007, 04:01:27 am »

3. How do I play a single track in Theater View? Previously I could use CTRL-P when on a track. Now CTRL-P adds all tracks on the list to playing queue.

4. In Theater View, can I somehow get Enter/OK on a track to play this track without popping up a menu? Note also that in the new version, Play item on this menu adds all tracks to Playing now.

Agree with both. I belive that the space key played the whole list when playlist or other groups was selected, and a single song when single tracks was selected (in earlier builds). Have not gotten this confirmed or not, so I might be wrong. But I think it highly abnormal to play the whole list when selecting one track for playing. Should be a pay of playing without the menu. This is the law.

As for the menus, I hate them! There should definitely be an option for the default behavior of the enter key. NO menus should be necessary. Or another key whould be able to navigate down and play.
I like the new list style, and the navigating, but still like to dive down in a album of genre without the menus.
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mhakman

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2007, 04:34:37 pm »

To summarize the info so far:

1. Problem with arrow keys in DVD submenus is being taken care of. At least one JR customer reported success in using arrow keys in DVD submenus, unclear how he achieved that. A number of other customers reported that the arrow keys don’t work in DVD submenus.

2. Currently it is not possible to drill down in lists by Enter/OK key without popping up a menu, despite the fact that it was the very behavior in previous MC subversions. A number of current JR customers would appreciate an option for this.

3. In this MC subversion, when an item representing a group of files is selected, then CTRL-P means “Play this group”, as it also did in previous versions. If, however, a single file is selected, then CTRL-P means “Play all files on list”, not “Play selected item”, as it did in previous versions. Single file may be played by entering Enter on a file and then selecting “Play” on resulting popup menu, and then entering Enter again. A number of current JR customers would appreciate an option to play selected item, whether it is a group or single file, by using CTRL-P or equivalent.

4. It is currently not possible to play selected singe file by entering Enter alone. A number of current JR customers would appreciate an option for this. If Enter would drill-down on a group, then playing a single file can be conceptually thought as a drill-down into file.

5. Everybody agrees that Backspace in Display View should work as it does today in the other screens, i.e. rollup to previous level, what that level may be. Today this is done by Enter key. The same Enter key is currently used on the other screens to popup a menu. In previous MC versions, the Enter key did a drill-down except when on a single file, when it popped up a menu.

6. It is possible to remove the menu on the left on screen, by editing a corresponding xml file. Once this is done, there is no way to popup this menu using a special shortcut. A number of current JR customers would appreciate an option for this.

7. No documentation for the above xml file exists. A number of current JR customers would appreciate such a document.

8. According to an older document on Track Info html templates, a number of field values besides NAME, ALBUM, ARTIST, and YEAR can be inserted into a Track Info. It is unclear whether this is still working.

9. It is possible to scale large cover images so that the whole image is shown in “Playing Now”, by selecting “Show Cover Art When Small” in a popup menu on “Playing Now” button. The background of this button becomes white, instead of the background color of the current TV skin.
 
Thank you

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Matt

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2007, 05:03:24 pm »

2. Currently it is not possible to drill down in lists by Enter/OK key without popping up a menu, despite the fact that it was the very behavior in previous MC subversions. A number of current JR customers would appreciate an option for this.

Use left / right for in and out.

Menus are only shown in Thumbnail lists, where left and right are needed to navigate.

Quote
3. In this MC subversion, when an item representing a group of files is selected, then CTRL-P means “Play this group”, as it also did in previous versions. If, however, a single file is selected, then CTRL-P means “Play all files on list”, not “Play selected item”, as it did in previous versions. Single file may be played by entering Enter on a file and then selecting “Play” on resulting popup menu, and then entering Enter again. A number of current JR customers would appreciate an option to play selected item, whether it is a group or single file, by using CTRL-P or equivalent.

Both "Play" and "Play All" are in the menu.  The one you used last will be at the top, so is available with a double-click on the remote.

Quote
Everybody agrees that Backspace in Display View should work as it does today in the other screens, i.e. rollup to previous level, what that level may be. Today this is done by Enter key.

Done in a coming build.
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Osho

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2007, 11:56:59 pm »

Use left / right for in and out.

Menus are only shown in Thumbnail lists, where left and right are needed to navigate.

I think we would really appreciate if we can get a menu option for thumbnail list which would make Enter drill down one level and use a special Menu key (and some keyboard short cut for keyboard users) to bring the menu up.

thanks,
Osho
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2007, 03:10:04 am »

I think we would really appreciate if we can get a menu option for thumbnail list which would make Enter drill down one level and use a special Menu key (and some keyboard short cut for keyboard users) to bring the menu up.

thanks,
Osho

Thanks! Someone who understand. Could not have said it better my self.
I like the tumbnails, and would like to drill down them without the menus popping up. An option to go down as default for enter key are wanted. As Osho says, this would also require another key or shortcut for the menu.

And while you're at it. There also have to be a way to choose behavior for space key.
Choise number 1: Play all (Default. As it is today).
Choise number 2: Play SELECTED item only (track, artist, playlist etc).

Pretty please. I would sell my soul for this!
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mhakman

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2007, 06:37:30 am »

Thanks Matt, Osho, and MrHaugen!

Quote
Use left / right for in and out.

Menus are only shown in Thumbnail lists, where left and right are needed to navigate.

In my MC version, Right drills down on all lists except when list items are files in which case Right pops up a menu. Left takes me to the item to the left, or to the left menu if already at the left edge of so called right pane. Popup menus are shown whenever I use Enter, whatever view.

Quote
Both "Play" and "Play All" are in the menu.  The one you used last will be at the top, so is available with a double-click on the remote.

Not in the MC version that I have. On lists containing group items (albums, playlists etc) there is only “Play” on the popup menu, which plays all contained files – it is the second choice on that menu, always. On lists containing files, there is only “Play all” on the popup menu, which plays all files in list – it is the first choice on this menu, always.

Quote
Done in a coming build.

Many thanks on my own and the other customer’s behalf. Could we get Backspace working as “Cancel” in popup menus too, please? It would feel right, that when you want to backup a step, whatever that step may be, you use Backspace (or whatever shortcut you assigned to it).

Quote
I think we would really appreciate if we can get a menu option for thumbnail list which would make Enter drill down one level and use a special Menu key (and some keyboard short cut for keyboard users) to bring the menu up.

Quote
I like the tumbnails, and would like to drill down them without the menus popping up. An option to go down as default for enter key are wanted. As Osho says, this would also require another key or shortcut for the menu.

Yes, please, very much.

Quote
And while you're at it. There also have to be a way to choose behavior for space key.
Choise number 1: Play all (Default. As it is today).
Choise number 2: Play SELECTED item only (track, artist, playlist etc).

Good idea! Then if we could get an option to play selected file on Enter without popping up a menu, you could use the first option above to play the whole list. No menu required in either case - very good!

In summary, an option (or options) to get the following behavior would be greatly appreciated:

1.   Enter drills down when on a group item, it plays a file when on a file, all this without popping up a menu.
2.   Play plays the selected item. If selected item is a group then it plays all files in this group. If selected item is a file then it plays that file.
3.   A special shortcut pops up a relevant for current situation/state menu.
4.   Backspace takes you always to the previous level/state.

In addition, I wonder if we could separate “Play” action from “Pause” action. Then “Play” would always play selected item (adding it to play queue). “Pause” would toggle play/pause state.

Also, some of option settings, like these above, and also some others such as “shuffle/reshuffle”, perhaps view/display/dsp/play settings too, etc. could be gathered into a “Settings” screen(s) available by a button from “Home” screen. In this way the need for the menu on the left would be reduced even farther.

Another question: Is it possible to remap MCE remote buttons in a corresponding way to what can be done with keyboard keys in xml file? I understand that those buttons that send keyboard equivalents should be possible to remap already. But what about the buttons that send non-keyboard events, such as WM_APPCOMMAND and WM_INPUT, which are the majority of non-T9 buttons on MCE remote.


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Matt

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2007, 11:59:20 am »

Not in the MC version that I have. On lists containing group items (albums, playlists etc) there is only “Play” on the popup menu, which plays all contained files – it is the second choice on that menu, always. On lists containing files, there is only “Play all” on the popup menu, which plays all files in list – it is the first choice on this menu, always.

Look in the "More" submenu.  It contains "Play" and "Play All" at the file level.

Once you pick something from there, it'll be at the root.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2007, 01:59:16 pm »

I think that summary point out most of it. Crossing my fingers for another option or two in the Theater View options soon.

In addition, I wonder if we could separate “Play” action from “Pause” action. Then “Play” would always play selected item (adding it to play queue). “Pause” would toggle play/pause state.

I somewhat disagree with you. There are some downsides. Play/pause is what is default in Standard View, and would therefore confuse some. Because of that there might also have to be made a shortcut for this and possibly do the changes in the standard view as well. Think it would be much trouble.
I belive there would be less confusion if the space key, or any other key for that sake, could do this. The space key nearly does this today, except it plays EVERY thing. As I said this would be best done with a option to choose the standard behavior for the key.


Thanks for the great work on Theater View so far!

- Carl
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Osho

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2007, 02:58:17 pm »


In addition, I wonder if we could separate “Play” action from “Pause” action. Then “Play” would always play selected item (adding it to play queue). “Pause” would toggle play/pause state.

The USBUIRT remote module at least has separate 3 buttons: Play , Pause, Play/Pause.

Osho
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sdgrizdan

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2007, 03:18:59 pm »

Thumbnail stacks should rotate throught the images like in standard view
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skeeterfood

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2007, 04:40:09 pm »

Look in the "More" submenu.  It contains "Play" and "Play All" at the file level.

Speaking of the "More" submenu, it needs some graphical indication that it "is" a sub-menu.  Maybe "More..." to match with "Advanced..." in the player controls.

-John
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mhakman

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2007, 04:52:30 pm »

Look in the "More" submenu.  It contains "Play" and "Play All" at the file level.

Once you pick something from there, it'll be at the root.
Of course Matt, I overlooked that one. When I’m working with MC (or other complex software) in normal view at my desk, I normally explore all menus and options, and then use them when I need to. In a living room, using a media player (i.e. MC’s Theatre View), such an old hacker like me doesn’t expect this kind of complexity – we just want to have a drink, play some music or videos, and enjoy the life...

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mhakman

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2007, 05:41:20 pm »

I think that summary point out most of it. Crossing my fingers for another option or two in the Theater View options soon.

I somewhat disagree with you. There are some downsides. Play/pause is what is default in Standard View, and would therefore confuse some. Because of that there might also have to be made a shortcut for this and possibly do the changes in the standard view as well. Think it would be much trouble.
I belive there would be less confusion if the space key, or any other key for that sake, could do this. The space key nearly does this today, except it plays EVERY thing. As I said this would be best done with a option to choose the standard behavior for the key.


Thanks for the great work on Theater View so far!

- Carl
I cross my fingers too. Let’s hope for the best.

Yes, I can see the problem here too. I’m seeking a way to have one key/button to perform one and only one or equivalent function. As it is now CTRL-P (or Play on remote) adds files to play queue and starts playing. But when it is already playing then it acts as pause toggle. These 2 functions are not related to each other, IMHO, and therefore I’m seeking a way to separate them. Actually, it is not the question which keys/buttons are used for the one or the other. The question is about having 2 separate functions/actions which then could be mapped to whatever keys/buttons you like. As long as you have one function/action (e.g. shortcut, message etc) for both, you cannot separate them, however you do.

One function is selecting files for playing (i.e. adding them to play queue) and thereby to start playing the first one, if none is playing yet. I would like to have one action that does this every time I use it, whether something is already in the queue or not, whether something is currently playing or not. The other function is to toggle current playing state – paused/playing, which IMHO, has nothing to do with the content of the play queue.

Osho says his remote has 3 buttons, Play, Pause, and Play/Pause. Most of my remotes (including Harmony universal remote and MCE remote) have Play, Stop, and Pause buttons. Play starts playing, Stop stops playing, and Pause toggles play/pause state.  None of the devices that these remotes control, with the possible exception of Harmony and MCE, have a playing queue. Therefore the problem that you mention is non-existent on these.  It would be nice to get control of MC’s play queue and playing into the same paradigm. As I see it, it would simplify things in my living room, and would allow us to focus on entertainment rather than on device control and software states.
 
I would like to thank JR people too. I don’t know how many they are, but I think they are doing a huge and complicated work each. Being software developer myself, I fully understand the size, the complexity, and trade-offs of such an undertaking as MC. Kudos friends!
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mojave

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2007, 09:04:56 am »

Yes, I can see the problem here too. I’m seeking a way to have one key/button to perform one and only one or equivalent function. As it is now CTRL-P (or Play on remote) adds files to play queue and starts playing. But when it is already playing then it acts as pause toggle. These 2 functions are not related to each other, IMHO, and therefore I’m seeking a way to separate them.
I like the submenus and the ability to drill down, but I would also like the play and pause functions separated for remote control purposes. That way I could browse to the cover art of the album, press the Play button, and the the album would be added to the playlist or replace the playlist depending on Play Button behavior settings in the Options > General > Play Button (more options would need to be added). If I needed more play options, then I could always use the "More" menu.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2007, 01:30:59 pm »

I understand you. Belive exactly this could be accomplished if there was a way to define a standard behavior of for example the space key. As you can for standard view today. Then you could map this action to your play button, and make the pause button just pause.
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mhakman

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Re: Theater View and other questions
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2007, 05:38:02 am »

That way I could browse to the cover art of the album, press the Play button, and the the album would be added to the playlist or replace the playlist depending on Play Button behavior settings…

…if there was a way to define a standard behavior of for example the space key. As you can for standard view today. Then you could map this action to your play button, and make the pause button just pause.

This is exactly what I mean. During a party, for instance, you want to allow the guests to browse through your library, and successively add the songs they like to the play queue. Because it is a party, and the guests don’t know much about your software, you want the easiest and the simplest and the most intuitive control operation. In other circumstances, such as e.g. audiophile listening etc, you want to replace what is currently being played with a new selection. Here you also want the simplest possible way of control. Temporarily interrupting playing (i.e. pausing) is something else – it’s more like muting, except that it affects all streams (not only audio) and it stops media rolling too, so that you can continue from there.

I think, we all agree that we need more options allowing for customization of Theatre View behavior and its control.
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